Joe Legal vs Jose Illegal

[ucodegen]

More straw. I’m not a resident of Mexico. I’m not a resident of the Sudan or Saudi Arabia or Israel. I have problems with some of all those countries’ practices. But my opinion has no effect on their policies. What they do wrong has no bearing on what I think is right for this country.

In part true.. but while we continually worry of how we treat Mexican citizens when they are in the U.S., we also have to be conscious of how they treat U.S. citizens when we are in their country. It is not a straw man argument though. This is why I mentioned it as something to ponder. It is not supportive of, or contradictory to either of our positions, which is why I labeled it as some things to ponder.

[ucodegen]

No, I haven’t answered the question. Straw man argument. You’ll also note I haven’t expressed any opinion on any immigration issues. Indeed it begs the question. Your question is based on an unsubstantiated premise.

Sorry, but asking about Jose vs Juan is not a straw man argument. It just points to what I feel is the hypocrisy of your position because you seem to believe that it is ok to take from Joe’s kids to fund Jose’s.. but not to take from Juan’s. The answer is a simple yes or no. Either way, the available funds for education are effectively finite. Something has to give.. lower quality education or more income taxes. Illegals don’t pay income taxes.
Straw Man argument
The only difference between Juan and Joe is just their ethnic origins, therefore using Juan is not a distorted version of Joe.

My position has nothing to do with arrogance, sense of superiority and entitlement. It is arrogant and displays a sense of entitlement to be illegally within a country and to expect to be served with all of the ‘entitlements’ that a legal citizen pays for, while at the same time, paying for none if it.

Two entirely different issues. And more straw. Another conclusion based on an unsupported premise.

Huh? do you even know what a Straw man argument is? My second sentence is almost the definition for an abnormal sense of entitlement. I have also supported that they do not pay for it.

The following is a much better argument on your part, but if you read your reference all the way to the end, you will find that it does not support your contention. It also echoes what I said about articles that supposedly debunk the cost of illegal aliens within the U.S.

See here from the Tax Foundation:

http://www.taxfoundation.org/blog/show/1424.html

You only “know” that illegal immigrants don’t pay their fair share if you ignore the facts.

See the last paragraph of your own link reference for the answer on this.

BTW:
To have a TIN, which I mentioned earlier, requires a greencard. If you have a greencard in this country, you are a ‘legal’ alien.. not illegally in this country. SS numbers are only issued to citizens. This is the issue I pointed out earlier. I have no problem with foreigners admitted to this country and working under a greencard/TIN. This is much different than a person within this country illegally– and without a greencard and thereby without a TIN.

The only part of this that could point to possible payment of taxes on the part of illegals is the use of invalid SS or TINs (there is actually another problem hiding here with illegals stealing identities of citizens and using their SS to apply for loans – then defaulting., also this). An invalid SS/TIN gets kicked back pretty quickly to the employer… and here is the ‘sidestep’ I mentioned earlier about the debunkers:

But even if one is paid “under the table” where neither the employer nor employee report the income to the IRS, other taxes are paid by illegal immigrants. This would include mainly sales taxes on items purchased in most states and localities.

As I mentioned before, the US is not a VAT tax system. It is an income tax. If it was a VAT system, our sales taxes would be north of 15%.
Additional proof that this doc does not support your contention (last paragraph):

While some argue that illegal immigrants do not pay their fair share of taxes compared to the value of government services they receive, this is partially a normative question that needs to be accompanied by more empirical evidence to support or refute.

I never said that illegals don’t pay some taxes, just not in proportion to their general cost to the U.S..

[ucodegen]

No, I haven’t answered the question. Straw man argument. You’ll also note I haven’t expressed any opinion on any immigration issues. Indeed it begs the question. Your question is based on an unsubstantiated premise.

Sorry, but asking about Jose vs Juan is not a straw man argument. It just points to what I feel is the hypocrisy of your position because you seem to believe that it is ok to take from Joe’s kids to fund Jose’s.. but not to take from Juan’s. The answer is a simple yes or no. Either way, the available funds for education are effectively finite. Something has to give.. lower quality education or more income taxes. Illegals don’t pay income taxes.
Straw Man argument
The only difference between Juan and Joe is just their ethnic origins, therefore using Juan is not a distorted version of Joe.

My position has nothing to do with arrogance, sense of superiority and entitlement. It is arrogant and displays a sense of entitlement to be illegally within a country and to expect to be served with all of the ‘entitlements’ that a legal citizen pays for, while at the same time, paying for none if it.

Two entirely different issues. And more straw. Another conclusion based on an unsupported premise.

Huh? do you even know what a Straw man argument is? My second sentence is almost the definition for an abnormal sense of entitlement. I have also supported that they do not pay for it.

The following is a much better argument on your part, but if you read your reference all the way to the end, you will find that it does not support your contention. It also echoes what I said about articles that supposedly debunk the cost of illegal aliens within the U.S.

See here from the Tax Foundation:

http://www.taxfoundation.org/blog/show/1424.html

You only “know” that illegal immigrants don’t pay their fair share if you ignore the facts.

See the last paragraph of your own link reference for the answer on this.

BTW:
To have a TIN, which I mentioned earlier, requires a greencard. If you have a greencard in this country, you are a ‘legal’ alien.. not illegally in this country. SS numbers are only issued to citizens. This is the issue I pointed out earlier. I have no problem with foreigners admitted to this country and working under a greencard/TIN. This is much different than a person within this country illegally– and without a greencard and thereby without a TIN.

The only part of this that could point to possible payment of taxes on the part of illegals is the use of invalid SS or TINs (there is actually another problem hiding here with illegals stealing identities of citizens and using their SS to apply for loans – then defaulting., also this). An invalid SS/TIN gets kicked back pretty quickly to the employer… and here is the ‘sidestep’ I mentioned earlier about the debunkers:

But even if one is paid “under the table” where neither the employer nor employee report the income to the IRS, other taxes are paid by illegal immigrants. This would include mainly sales taxes on items purchased in most states and localities.

As I mentioned before, the US is not a VAT tax system. It is an income tax. If it was a VAT system, our sales taxes would be north of 15%.
Additional proof that this doc does not support your contention (last paragraph):

While some argue that illegal immigrants do not pay their fair share of taxes compared to the value of government services they receive, this is partially a normative question that needs to be accompanied by more empirical evidence to support or refute.

I never said that illegals don’t pay some taxes, just not in proportion to their general cost to the U.S..

[ucodegen]

No, I haven’t answered the question. Straw man argument. You’ll also note I haven’t expressed any opinion on any immigration issues. Indeed it begs the question. Your question is based on an unsubstantiated premise.

Sorry, but asking about Jose vs Juan is not a straw man argument. It just points to what I feel is the hypocrisy of your position because you seem to believe that it is ok to take from Joe’s kids to fund Jose’s.. but not to take from Juan’s. The answer is a simple yes or no. Either way, the available funds for education are effectively finite. Something has to give.. lower quality education or more income taxes. Illegals don’t pay income taxes.
Straw Man argument
The only difference between Juan and Joe is just their ethnic origins, therefore using Juan is not a distorted version of Joe.

My position has nothing to do with arrogance, sense of superiority and entitlement. It is arrogant and displays a sense of entitlement to be illegally within a country and to expect to be served with all of the ‘entitlements’ that a legal citizen pays for, while at the same time, paying for none if it.

Two entirely different issues. And more straw. Another conclusion based on an unsupported premise.

Huh? do you even know what a Straw man argument is? My second sentence is almost the definition for an abnormal sense of entitlement. I have also supported that they do not pay for it.

The following is a much better argument on your part, but if you read your reference all the way to the end, you will find that it does not support your contention. It also echoes what I said about articles that supposedly debunk the cost of illegal aliens within the U.S.

See here from the Tax Foundation:

http://www.taxfoundation.org/blog/show/1424.html

You only “know” that illegal immigrants don’t pay their fair share if you ignore the facts.

See the last paragraph of your own link reference for the answer on this.

BTW:
To have a TIN, which I mentioned earlier, requires a greencard. If you have a greencard in this country, you are a ‘legal’ alien.. not illegally in this country. SS numbers are only issued to citizens. This is the issue I pointed out earlier. I have no problem with foreigners admitted to this country and working under a greencard/TIN. This is much different than a person within this country illegally– and without a greencard and thereby without a TIN.

The only part of this that could point to possible payment of taxes on the part of illegals is the use of invalid SS or TINs (there is actually another problem hiding here with illegals stealing identities of citizens and using their SS to apply for loans – then defaulting., also this). An invalid SS/TIN gets kicked back pretty quickly to the employer… and here is the ‘sidestep’ I mentioned earlier about the debunkers:

But even if one is paid “under the table” where neither the employer nor employee report the income to the IRS, other taxes are paid by illegal immigrants. This would include mainly sales taxes on items purchased in most states and localities.

As I mentioned before, the US is not a VAT tax system. It is an income tax. If it was a VAT system, our sales taxes would be north of 15%.
Additional proof that this doc does not support your contention (last paragraph):

While some argue that illegal immigrants do not pay their fair share of taxes compared to the value of government services they receive, this is partially a normative question that needs to be accompanied by more empirical evidence to support or refute.

I never said that illegals don’t pay some taxes, just not in proportion to their general cost to the U.S..

[ucodegen]

No, I haven’t answered the question. Straw man argument. You’ll also note I haven’t expressed any opinion on any immigration issues. Indeed it begs the question. Your question is based on an unsubstantiated premise.

Sorry, but asking about Jose vs Juan is not a straw man argument. It just points to what I feel is the hypocrisy of your position because you seem to believe that it is ok to take from Joe’s kids to fund Jose’s.. but not to take from Juan’s. The answer is a simple yes or no. Either way, the available funds for education are effectively finite. Something has to give.. lower quality education or more income taxes. Illegals don’t pay income taxes.
Straw Man argument
The only difference between Juan and Joe is just their ethnic origins, therefore using Juan is not a distorted version of Joe.

My position has nothing to do with arrogance, sense of superiority and entitlement. It is arrogant and displays a sense of entitlement to be illegally within a country and to expect to be served with all of the ‘entitlements’ that a legal citizen pays for, while at the same time, paying for none if it.

Two entirely different issues. And more straw. Another conclusion based on an unsupported premise.

Huh? do you even know what a Straw man argument is? My second sentence is almost the definition for an abnormal sense of entitlement. I have also supported that they do not pay for it.

The following is a much better argument on your part, but if you read your reference all the way to the end, you will find that it does not support your contention. It also echoes what I said about articles that supposedly debunk the cost of illegal aliens within the U.S.

See here from the Tax Foundation:

http://www.taxfoundation.org/blog/show/1424.html

You only “know” that illegal immigrants don’t pay their fair share if you ignore the facts.

See the last paragraph of your own link reference for the answer on this.

BTW:
To have a TIN, which I mentioned earlier, requires a greencard. If you have a greencard in this country, you are a ‘legal’ alien.. not illegally in this country. SS numbers are only issued to citizens. This is the issue I pointed out earlier. I have no problem with foreigners admitted to this country and working under a greencard/TIN. This is much different than a person within this country illegally– and without a greencard and thereby without a TIN.

The only part of this that could point to possible payment of taxes on the part of illegals is the use of invalid SS or TINs (there is actually another problem hiding here with illegals stealing identities of citizens and using their SS to apply for loans – then defaulting., also this). An invalid SS/TIN gets kicked back pretty quickly to the employer… and here is the ‘sidestep’ I mentioned earlier about the debunkers:

But even if one is paid “under the table” where neither the employer nor employee report the income to the IRS, other taxes are paid by illegal immigrants. This would include mainly sales taxes on items purchased in most states and localities.

As I mentioned before, the US is not a VAT tax system. It is an income tax. If it was a VAT system, our sales taxes would be north of 15%.
Additional proof that this doc does not support your contention (last paragraph):

While some argue that illegal immigrants do not pay their fair share of taxes compared to the value of government services they receive, this is partially a normative question that needs to be accompanied by more empirical evidence to support or refute.

I never said that illegals don’t pay some taxes, just not in proportion to their general cost to the U.S..

[ucodegen]

No, I haven’t answered the question. Straw man argument. You’ll also note I haven’t expressed any opinion on any immigration issues. Indeed it begs the question. Your question is based on an unsubstantiated premise.

Sorry, but asking about Jose vs Juan is not a straw man argument. It just points to what I feel is the hypocrisy of your position because you seem to believe that it is ok to take from Joe’s kids to fund Jose’s.. but not to take from Juan’s. The answer is a simple yes or no. Either way, the available funds for education are effectively finite. Something has to give.. lower quality education or more income taxes. Illegals don’t pay income taxes.
Straw Man argument
The only difference between Juan and Joe is just their ethnic origins, therefore using Juan is not a distorted version of Joe.

My position has nothing to do with arrogance, sense of superiority and entitlement. It is arrogant and displays a sense of entitlement to be illegally within a country and to expect to be served with all of the ‘entitlements’ that a legal citizen pays for, while at the same time, paying for none if it.

Two entirely different issues. And more straw. Another conclusion based on an unsupported premise.

Huh? do you even know what a Straw man argument is? My second sentence is almost the definition for an abnormal sense of entitlement. I have also supported that they do not pay for it.

The following is a much better argument on your part, but if you read your reference all the way to the end, you will find that it does not support your contention. It also echoes what I said about articles that supposedly debunk the cost of illegal aliens within the U.S.

See here from the Tax Foundation:

http://www.taxfoundation.org/blog/show/1424.html

You only “know” that illegal immigrants don’t pay their fair share if you ignore the facts.

See the last paragraph of your own link reference for the answer on this.

BTW:
To have a TIN, which I mentioned earlier, requires a greencard. If you have a greencard in this country, you are a ‘legal’ alien.. not illegally in this country. SS numbers are only issued to citizens. This is the issue I pointed out earlier. I have no problem with foreigners admitted to this country and working under a greencard/TIN. This is much different than a person within this country illegally– and without a greencard and thereby without a TIN.

The only part of this that could point to possible payment of taxes on the part of illegals is the use of invalid SS or TINs (there is actually another problem hiding here with illegals stealing identities of citizens and using their SS to apply for loans – then defaulting., also this). An invalid SS/TIN gets kicked back pretty quickly to the employer… and here is the ‘sidestep’ I mentioned earlier about the debunkers:

But even if one is paid “under the table” where neither the employer nor employee report the income to the IRS, other taxes are paid by illegal immigrants. This would include mainly sales taxes on items purchased in most states and localities.

As I mentioned before, the US is not a VAT tax system. It is an income tax. If it was a VAT system, our sales taxes would be north of 15%.
Additional proof that this doc does not support your contention (last paragraph):

While some argue that illegal immigrants do not pay their fair share of taxes compared to the value of government services they receive, this is partially a normative question that needs to be accompanied by more empirical evidence to support or refute.

I never said that illegals don’t pay some taxes, just not in proportion to their general cost to the U.S..

[rnen]

As an employer that hires only legal workers I agree that the laws and fines on the books to deal with the hiring of illegals needs to be enforced.
I run an above board operation totally by the book and have to compete with others who gain a huge advantage by employing illegals at half the cost. Local, state and federal governments do little to enforce EXISTING laws. In a very real sense I get punished for doing the right thing.

Another thing to consider is that the abundance of cheap illegal labor has decimated the wage base of most blue collar work.The illegals wages have not risen to that of legal workers but brought the legals down to their rate of pay. I see it in my industry and have heard first hand from numerous construction related workers. Good for the economy my ass.

I would bet the farm that if illegals were teaching, on the police force, in the fire department or almost any other white collar job in the same numbers that are in the labor market the laws would be enforced to the letter. Very easy for those with a “protected” work environment to get all high and mighty about the plight of the illegal while not giving a rats ass that they have destroyed the earning power of millions.

I would just love to hear the reaction of union employees if their employers hired a bunch of illegals then dropped everyones pay to their level.

[rnen]

As an employer that hires only legal workers I agree that the laws and fines on the books to deal with the hiring of illegals needs to be enforced.
I run an above board operation totally by the book and have to compete with others who gain a huge advantage by employing illegals at half the cost. Local, state and federal governments do little to enforce EXISTING laws. In a very real sense I get punished for doing the right thing.

Another thing to consider is that the abundance of cheap illegal labor has decimated the wage base of most blue collar work.The illegals wages have not risen to that of legal workers but brought the legals down to their rate of pay. I see it in my industry and have heard first hand from numerous construction related workers. Good for the economy my ass.

I would bet the farm that if illegals were teaching, on the police force, in the fire department or almost any other white collar job in the same numbers that are in the labor market the laws would be enforced to the letter. Very easy for those with a “protected” work environment to get all high and mighty about the plight of the illegal while not giving a rats ass that they have destroyed the earning power of millions.

I would just love to hear the reaction of union employees if their employers hired a bunch of illegals then dropped everyones pay to their level.

[rnen]

As an employer that hires only legal workers I agree that the laws and fines on the books to deal with the hiring of illegals needs to be enforced.
I run an above board operation totally by the book and have to compete with others who gain a huge advantage by employing illegals at half the cost. Local, state and federal governments do little to enforce EXISTING laws. In a very real sense I get punished for doing the right thing.

Another thing to consider is that the abundance of cheap illegal labor has decimated the wage base of most blue collar work.The illegals wages have not risen to that of legal workers but brought the legals down to their rate of pay. I see it in my industry and have heard first hand from numerous construction related workers. Good for the economy my ass.

I would bet the farm that if illegals were teaching, on the police force, in the fire department or almost any other white collar job in the same numbers that are in the labor market the laws would be enforced to the letter. Very easy for those with a “protected” work environment to get all high and mighty about the plight of the illegal while not giving a rats ass that they have destroyed the earning power of millions.

I would just love to hear the reaction of union employees if their employers hired a bunch of illegals then dropped everyones pay to their level.

[rnen]

As an employer that hires only legal workers I agree that the laws and fines on the books to deal with the hiring of illegals needs to be enforced.
I run an above board operation totally by the book and have to compete with others who gain a huge advantage by employing illegals at half the cost. Local, state and federal governments do little to enforce EXISTING laws. In a very real sense I get punished for doing the right thing.

Another thing to consider is that the abundance of cheap illegal labor has decimated the wage base of most blue collar work.The illegals wages have not risen to that of legal workers but brought the legals down to their rate of pay. I see it in my industry and have heard first hand from numerous construction related workers. Good for the economy my ass.

I would bet the farm that if illegals were teaching, on the police force, in the fire department or almost any other white collar job in the same numbers that are in the labor market the laws would be enforced to the letter. Very easy for those with a “protected” work environment to get all high and mighty about the plight of the illegal while not giving a rats ass that they have destroyed the earning power of millions.

I would just love to hear the reaction of union employees if their employers hired a bunch of illegals then dropped everyones pay to their level.

[rnen]

As an employer that hires only legal workers I agree that the laws and fines on the books to deal with the hiring of illegals needs to be enforced.
I run an above board operation totally by the book and have to compete with others who gain a huge advantage by employing illegals at half the cost. Local, state and federal governments do little to enforce EXISTING laws. In a very real sense I get punished for doing the right thing.

Another thing to consider is that the abundance of cheap illegal labor has decimated the wage base of most blue collar work.The illegals wages have not risen to that of legal workers but brought the legals down to their rate of pay. I see it in my industry and have heard first hand from numerous construction related workers. Good for the economy my ass.

I would bet the farm that if illegals were teaching, on the police force, in the fire department or almost any other white collar job in the same numbers that are in the labor market the laws would be enforced to the letter. Very easy for those with a “protected” work environment to get all high and mighty about the plight of the illegal while not giving a rats ass that they have destroyed the earning power of millions.

I would just love to hear the reaction of union employees if their employers hired a bunch of illegals then dropped everyones pay to their level.

[all]

[quote=ucodegen]
To have a TIN, which I mentioned earlier, requires a greencard.
[/quote]
Not true. H4’s get TIN.

[quote=ucodegen]
SS numbers are only issued to citizens.
[/quote]

Not true. H1B’s get SSN.

[all]

[quote=ucodegen]
To have a TIN, which I mentioned earlier, requires a greencard.
[/quote]
Not true. H4’s get TIN.

[quote=ucodegen]
SS numbers are only issued to citizens.
[/quote]

Not true. H1B’s get SSN.

[all]

[quote=ucodegen]
To have a TIN, which I mentioned earlier, requires a greencard.
[/quote]
Not true. H4’s get TIN.

[quote=ucodegen]
SS numbers are only issued to citizens.
[/quote]

Not true. H1B’s get SSN.

[all]

[quote=ucodegen]
To have a TIN, which I mentioned earlier, requires a greencard.
[/quote]
Not true. H4’s get TIN.

[quote=ucodegen]
SS numbers are only issued to citizens.
[/quote]

Not true. H1B’s get SSN.

[Author]

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