Joe Legal vs Jose Illegal

[cabal]

[quote=ucodegen]

If you don’t like paying for Jose’s kid, then why are you OK with paying for Joe’s kid?

Both Joe’s kids and Jose’s kids are going to end up in US communities as adults (like it or not). So perhaps we should educate them both.

The only problem is that to provide for Jose’s kid, we have to take away from Joe’s kid.. or Juan’s kid. Juan being the person who took the legal way in. It create a moral conundrum. You end up punishing someone for doing it right and legal, and rewarding someone for doing it illegally
(Ironically, similar to some of the stuff with real estate mortgages right now). Unfortunately the ones at receiving end are the kids, as proxies for their parents behavior or the behavior of other parents. Kids of legal parents get punished because of class crowding, teachers having to spend extra time bring kids of illegals up to speed. On the other hand, to deny kids of illegals an education, punishes those kids for the behavior of their parents. Either way, a decision has to be made.[/quote]

Another entertaining Piggington thread. Under current law, there should be no problem because Joe, Jose or Juan’s children are all US citizens entitled to equal educational benefits . Your issues are with the applicability of the 14th amendment Section 1 and allocation of tax revenues.

Vesting citizenship by birthplace in a constitutional amendment was originally intended to provide guaranteed protection for freed slaves against injustices such as the Dred Scott supreme court decision, specifically protection against deportation and the right to life, liberty and property. I tend to agree the loophole for anchor babies should be closed as illegal immigrants have little analogy to the slave situation, probably. What gives me some pause is the philosophical argument of Deistic “Natural Rights” espoused by our Founding Fathers, or the unalienable right to life, liberty and property vested to all humans outside and above any govt rights. Citizenship by birthplace (Jus Solis), rooted in English common law, was instituted for pragmatic reasons, to facilitate nation building by attaining labor and skillsets via a growing population. If a child born on US soil of illegal parents say in the sparse west late 1800s, I doubt anyone would have an issue recognizing that childs citizenship. It feels odd to me that limited resources is now sufficient grounds to deny this settled right. For me, the question is does an innocent child born of illegal parents who has committed no crime, who if able to speak accepts the jurisdiction of this country, and who grows up to be a productive member of society have the right of citizenship?

As for how Uncle Sam spends/wastes our tax dollars, educating legal children of illegal immigrants doesn’t even crack my worst top ten list. For better or worse, we live in a republic, not a true democracy. This means we don’t decide anything, we elect others to decide for us. I’m not fond of our progressive tax system, or taxation for redistribution since I’m in the highest tax bracket, but consume no more public resources than the average person. Too bad.

I don’t agree Juanitas parents should try to sneak her into this country. But for the record, I admire SK in CVs unconditional love for the well being of innocent children whose circumstances are no fault of their own. Some may call this naïve, I see it as a sign of nobility.

[SK in CV]

[quote=GH]My income last year was ($35,000) – that is NEGATIVE $35,000 for those not familiar with accounting rules, so I for one could not pay. I guess that leaves the rest of you who are apparently doing so well you can afford all this PC BS. Guess that makes ME a racist for not paying my share!

Did you know that in the United States we have ONE GM bankruptcy a WEEK if you aggregate all the small businesses which fail. Funny Obama believes we are SO RICH we were to pay for health care for all. Thank god for Massachusetts I will not be a criminal for refusing to pay my “fair share”![/quote]

Actually, Obama never proposed that the government pay for health care for all. Nor did anyone else in either house of congress. Not even close. But if believing that soothes the pain of your own failures, be my guest.

[SK in CV]

[quote=GH]My income last year was ($35,000) – that is NEGATIVE $35,000 for those not familiar with accounting rules, so I for one could not pay. I guess that leaves the rest of you who are apparently doing so well you can afford all this PC BS. Guess that makes ME a racist for not paying my share!

Did you know that in the United States we have ONE GM bankruptcy a WEEK if you aggregate all the small businesses which fail. Funny Obama believes we are SO RICH we were to pay for health care for all. Thank god for Massachusetts I will not be a criminal for refusing to pay my “fair share”![/quote]

Actually, Obama never proposed that the government pay for health care for all. Nor did anyone else in either house of congress. Not even close. But if believing that soothes the pain of your own failures, be my guest.

[SK in CV]

[quote=GH]My income last year was ($35,000) – that is NEGATIVE $35,000 for those not familiar with accounting rules, so I for one could not pay. I guess that leaves the rest of you who are apparently doing so well you can afford all this PC BS. Guess that makes ME a racist for not paying my share!

Did you know that in the United States we have ONE GM bankruptcy a WEEK if you aggregate all the small businesses which fail. Funny Obama believes we are SO RICH we were to pay for health care for all. Thank god for Massachusetts I will not be a criminal for refusing to pay my “fair share”![/quote]

Actually, Obama never proposed that the government pay for health care for all. Nor did anyone else in either house of congress. Not even close. But if believing that soothes the pain of your own failures, be my guest.

[SK in CV]

[quote=GH]My income last year was ($35,000) – that is NEGATIVE $35,000 for those not familiar with accounting rules, so I for one could not pay. I guess that leaves the rest of you who are apparently doing so well you can afford all this PC BS. Guess that makes ME a racist for not paying my share!

Did you know that in the United States we have ONE GM bankruptcy a WEEK if you aggregate all the small businesses which fail. Funny Obama believes we are SO RICH we were to pay for health care for all. Thank god for Massachusetts I will not be a criminal for refusing to pay my “fair share”![/quote]

Actually, Obama never proposed that the government pay for health care for all. Nor did anyone else in either house of congress. Not even close. But if believing that soothes the pain of your own failures, be my guest.

[SK in CV]

[quote=GH]My income last year was ($35,000) – that is NEGATIVE $35,000 for those not familiar with accounting rules, so I for one could not pay. I guess that leaves the rest of you who are apparently doing so well you can afford all this PC BS. Guess that makes ME a racist for not paying my share!

Did you know that in the United States we have ONE GM bankruptcy a WEEK if you aggregate all the small businesses which fail. Funny Obama believes we are SO RICH we were to pay for health care for all. Thank god for Massachusetts I will not be a criminal for refusing to pay my “fair share”![/quote]

Actually, Obama never proposed that the government pay for health care for all. Nor did anyone else in either house of congress. Not even close. But if believing that soothes the pain of your own failures, be my guest.

[SK in CV]

I appreciate the comment…

[quote=Cabal]I don’t agree Juanitas parents should try to sneak her into this country. But for the record, I admire SK in CVs unconditional love for the well being of innocent children whose circumstances are no fault of their own. Some may call this naïve, I see it as a sign of nobility.[/quote]

but i think you read more into what i wrote than i intended. I simply asked whether the commenter thought one child was more worthy than another solely based on the birthplace of their parents. I was (and still am) dumbfounded by the response. I can’t even look at my own kids and believe they are more worthy or deserving than others simply because of my good fortune to be born in this country.

[SK in CV]

I appreciate the comment…

[quote=Cabal]I don’t agree Juanitas parents should try to sneak her into this country. But for the record, I admire SK in CVs unconditional love for the well being of innocent children whose circumstances are no fault of their own. Some may call this naïve, I see it as a sign of nobility.[/quote]

but i think you read more into what i wrote than i intended. I simply asked whether the commenter thought one child was more worthy than another solely based on the birthplace of their parents. I was (and still am) dumbfounded by the response. I can’t even look at my own kids and believe they are more worthy or deserving than others simply because of my good fortune to be born in this country.

[SK in CV]

I appreciate the comment…

[quote=Cabal]I don’t agree Juanitas parents should try to sneak her into this country. But for the record, I admire SK in CVs unconditional love for the well being of innocent children whose circumstances are no fault of their own. Some may call this naïve, I see it as a sign of nobility.[/quote]

but i think you read more into what i wrote than i intended. I simply asked whether the commenter thought one child was more worthy than another solely based on the birthplace of their parents. I was (and still am) dumbfounded by the response. I can’t even look at my own kids and believe they are more worthy or deserving than others simply because of my good fortune to be born in this country.

[SK in CV]

I appreciate the comment…

[quote=Cabal]I don’t agree Juanitas parents should try to sneak her into this country. But for the record, I admire SK in CVs unconditional love for the well being of innocent children whose circumstances are no fault of their own. Some may call this naïve, I see it as a sign of nobility.[/quote]

but i think you read more into what i wrote than i intended. I simply asked whether the commenter thought one child was more worthy than another solely based on the birthplace of their parents. I was (and still am) dumbfounded by the response. I can’t even look at my own kids and believe they are more worthy or deserving than others simply because of my good fortune to be born in this country.

[SK in CV]

I appreciate the comment…

[quote=Cabal]I don’t agree Juanitas parents should try to sneak her into this country. But for the record, I admire SK in CVs unconditional love for the well being of innocent children whose circumstances are no fault of their own. Some may call this naïve, I see it as a sign of nobility.[/quote]

but i think you read more into what i wrote than i intended. I simply asked whether the commenter thought one child was more worthy than another solely based on the birthplace of their parents. I was (and still am) dumbfounded by the response. I can’t even look at my own kids and believe they are more worthy or deserving than others simply because of my good fortune to be born in this country.

[CDMA ENG]

[quote=SK in CV]Funny you should choose Arizona as an example.

[quote=CDMA ENG]

That’s not necessarily true. In Arizona, at least, public safety takes priority over immgration policy. Police will not act, or inform, the INS except in situations that involve arrest of the illegal.

CE[/quote]

Joe Arpaio, the sheriff in Maricopa county, is notorious for sending out his deputies on immigration sweeps, to the point of pissing off the feds. Not only has he notified the INS of arrests having nothing to do with any crime other than immigration status, he has entire teams of deputies that are specially trained to do just that. The feds (I think it was DHS) actually rescinded some of his authority in immigration cases, because his violations of their rules were so outrageous.

There may be some areas of the country where Jose could feel safe calling the cops, but Maricopa county sure isn’t one of them.[/quote]

True but that is the sheriffs department NOT police. I don’t know about you but 95 percent of this population deals with police and not sheriffs. Sheriffs take care of the “country-side” most of our interactions or needs for police’ing take place within a town or city. But the point remains valid.

And to set this point home I had family that came from Nicarauga fleeing the war (they fought on the wrong side) they outstayed thier visas and were illegal aliens for years and had no problem calling the Mesa PD.

Police do not want to be involved in INS issues due to lack of resources period…

Most illegals know this… and still utilize the system.

CE

[CDMA ENG]

[quote=SK in CV]Funny you should choose Arizona as an example.

[quote=CDMA ENG]

That’s not necessarily true. In Arizona, at least, public safety takes priority over immgration policy. Police will not act, or inform, the INS except in situations that involve arrest of the illegal.

CE[/quote]

Joe Arpaio, the sheriff in Maricopa county, is notorious for sending out his deputies on immigration sweeps, to the point of pissing off the feds. Not only has he notified the INS of arrests having nothing to do with any crime other than immigration status, he has entire teams of deputies that are specially trained to do just that. The feds (I think it was DHS) actually rescinded some of his authority in immigration cases, because his violations of their rules were so outrageous.

There may be some areas of the country where Jose could feel safe calling the cops, but Maricopa county sure isn’t one of them.[/quote]

True but that is the sheriffs department NOT police. I don’t know about you but 95 percent of this population deals with police and not sheriffs. Sheriffs take care of the “country-side” most of our interactions or needs for police’ing take place within a town or city. But the point remains valid.

And to set this point home I had family that came from Nicarauga fleeing the war (they fought on the wrong side) they outstayed thier visas and were illegal aliens for years and had no problem calling the Mesa PD.

Police do not want to be involved in INS issues due to lack of resources period…

Most illegals know this… and still utilize the system.

CE

[CDMA ENG]

[quote=SK in CV]Funny you should choose Arizona as an example.

[quote=CDMA ENG]

That’s not necessarily true. In Arizona, at least, public safety takes priority over immgration policy. Police will not act, or inform, the INS except in situations that involve arrest of the illegal.

CE[/quote]

Joe Arpaio, the sheriff in Maricopa county, is notorious for sending out his deputies on immigration sweeps, to the point of pissing off the feds. Not only has he notified the INS of arrests having nothing to do with any crime other than immigration status, he has entire teams of deputies that are specially trained to do just that. The feds (I think it was DHS) actually rescinded some of his authority in immigration cases, because his violations of their rules were so outrageous.

There may be some areas of the country where Jose could feel safe calling the cops, but Maricopa county sure isn’t one of them.[/quote]

True but that is the sheriffs department NOT police. I don’t know about you but 95 percent of this population deals with police and not sheriffs. Sheriffs take care of the “country-side” most of our interactions or needs for police’ing take place within a town or city. But the point remains valid.

And to set this point home I had family that came from Nicarauga fleeing the war (they fought on the wrong side) they outstayed thier visas and were illegal aliens for years and had no problem calling the Mesa PD.

Police do not want to be involved in INS issues due to lack of resources period…

Most illegals know this… and still utilize the system.

CE

[CDMA ENG]

[quote=SK in CV]Funny you should choose Arizona as an example.

[quote=CDMA ENG]

That’s not necessarily true. In Arizona, at least, public safety takes priority over immgration policy. Police will not act, or inform, the INS except in situations that involve arrest of the illegal.

CE[/quote]

Joe Arpaio, the sheriff in Maricopa county, is notorious for sending out his deputies on immigration sweeps, to the point of pissing off the feds. Not only has he notified the INS of arrests having nothing to do with any crime other than immigration status, he has entire teams of deputies that are specially trained to do just that. The feds (I think it was DHS) actually rescinded some of his authority in immigration cases, because his violations of their rules were so outrageous.

There may be some areas of the country where Jose could feel safe calling the cops, but Maricopa county sure isn’t one of them.[/quote]

True but that is the sheriffs department NOT police. I don’t know about you but 95 percent of this population deals with police and not sheriffs. Sheriffs take care of the “country-side” most of our interactions or needs for police’ing take place within a town or city. But the point remains valid.

And to set this point home I had family that came from Nicarauga fleeing the war (they fought on the wrong side) they outstayed thier visas and were illegal aliens for years and had no problem calling the Mesa PD.

Police do not want to be involved in INS issues due to lack of resources period…

Most illegals know this… and still utilize the system.

CE

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