Healthcare is not a right!?

[aldante]

[quote=pri_dk]I’m not sure why it matters if health care is a “right.” Most of the functions of government are not related to specific, individual rights.

The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States […]

The Constitution does not state that the “common Defence” is a right. It says that defense is a function of government, and the government can tax the people to provide it. If the government were only to spend money on “rights,” then we would have no military.

The more interesting question is this: Does the health care fall under the definition of “general Welfare of the United States?” To the extent it does, health care can legally be under the control of the federal government.[/quote]

Look at who is advertising on the MSM – pharmacuticals and health care organizations…..

[aldante]

[The teabaggers are just complaining that they lost an election and that the current elected legislators are doing things they don’t like.[/quote]

Not my reason for going to the tea party events……sorry to be outside your understanding.

The only difference between Bush and Obama is in how many zero’s they add to the deficit. The tea party movement (at least the people I know) disagree with either president’s right to govern in the manner that they are governing. One small example is being in war for eight years without a declaration of war. Or being able to invade citizens privacy (‘Patriot Act”) without changing the Constitution. Or how about letting a group of secret elitist (the Fed) throw this economy into fits and starts which has demolished this countrys middle class.

[aldante]

[The teabaggers are just complaining that they lost an election and that the current elected legislators are doing things they don’t like.[/quote]

Not my reason for going to the tea party events……sorry to be outside your understanding.

The only difference between Bush and Obama is in how many zero’s they add to the deficit. The tea party movement (at least the people I know) disagree with either president’s right to govern in the manner that they are governing. One small example is being in war for eight years without a declaration of war. Or being able to invade citizens privacy (‘Patriot Act”) without changing the Constitution. Or how about letting a group of secret elitist (the Fed) throw this economy into fits and starts which has demolished this countrys middle class.

[aldante]

[The teabaggers are just complaining that they lost an election and that the current elected legislators are doing things they don’t like.[/quote]

Not my reason for going to the tea party events……sorry to be outside your understanding.

The only difference between Bush and Obama is in how many zero’s they add to the deficit. The tea party movement (at least the people I know) disagree with either president’s right to govern in the manner that they are governing. One small example is being in war for eight years without a declaration of war. Or being able to invade citizens privacy (‘Patriot Act”) without changing the Constitution. Or how about letting a group of secret elitist (the Fed) throw this economy into fits and starts which has demolished this countrys middle class.

[aldante]

[The teabaggers are just complaining that they lost an election and that the current elected legislators are doing things they don’t like.[/quote]

Not my reason for going to the tea party events……sorry to be outside your understanding.

The only difference between Bush and Obama is in how many zero’s they add to the deficit. The tea party movement (at least the people I know) disagree with either president’s right to govern in the manner that they are governing. One small example is being in war for eight years without a declaration of war. Or being able to invade citizens privacy (‘Patriot Act”) without changing the Constitution. Or how about letting a group of secret elitist (the Fed) throw this economy into fits and starts which has demolished this countrys middle class.

[aldante]

[The teabaggers are just complaining that they lost an election and that the current elected legislators are doing things they don’t like.[/quote]

Not my reason for going to the tea party events……sorry to be outside your understanding.

The only difference between Bush and Obama is in how many zero’s they add to the deficit. The tea party movement (at least the people I know) disagree with either president’s right to govern in the manner that they are governing. One small example is being in war for eight years without a declaration of war. Or being able to invade citizens privacy (‘Patriot Act”) without changing the Constitution. Or how about letting a group of secret elitist (the Fed) throw this economy into fits and starts which has demolished this countrys middle class.

[urbanrealtor]

[quote=Allan from Fallbrook]Dan: My point regarding representative democracy was simply this: Money = Access…
[/quote]
I am quivering in respect of this earth-shattering insight.
[quote=Allan from Fallbrook]
Given that it costs millions upon millions of dollars to run for office these days, politicians have become more and more beholden to those that can afford to pony up the money….
[/quote]
Couple of problems here:
-These decisions (votes and compromises) are being made by legislators. I doubt Susan Davis’ office (she is my house member) spends “millions and millions” on her campaign. Having visited her office, I doubt they spend even thousands on much.
-Also the nature of democracy is to limit the inequities of capitalism. It is easy to influence decisions but hard to literally buy election.
[quote=Allan from Fallbrook]
As far as this health care bill goes: It is a mess. Its a cumbersome piece of legislation …
[/quote]
Yeah I get that you don’t like it.
[quote=Allan from Fallbrook]
special interest, industry groups and lobbyists to put their mark on legislation without the pesky issue of debate or review.

[/quote]
The argument here is that there has not been enough debate? They have had piles of debate and versions passed both houses after considerable review and reworking.
[quote=Allan from Fallbrook]

The MSM, which, once upon a time, had investigative journalists and diligently reported the news, is completely AWOL…
[/quote]
So your other argument is that the news is ignoring health care?
[quote=Allan from Fallbrook]
Our politicians don’t answer to us anymore…
[/quote]
Again, we lost the right to vote?
We don’t prosecute kleptocrats?
[quote=Allan from Fallbrook]
The actions of government as of late are either confiscatory (in terms of wealth redistribution), intrusive (Patriot I and II) or illegal (takeovers, bailouts or foreign wars that DON’T protect the well being or interest of US citizens).

Didn’t we already go to war over this shit before (American Revolution)?

[/quote]
No. We attempted to fight for our rights as British subjects (like voting). It kind of snowballed when the government explicitly asserted that we had neither our guaranteed rights nor a right to complain.
[quote=Allan from Fallbrook]
And, no, I’m not the political theorist I mentioned. I might have my self-aggrandizing moments, but I’m not that bad![/quote]
Okay…

[urbanrealtor]

[quote=Allan from Fallbrook]Dan: My point regarding representative democracy was simply this: Money = Access…
[/quote]
I am quivering in respect of this earth-shattering insight.
[quote=Allan from Fallbrook]
Given that it costs millions upon millions of dollars to run for office these days, politicians have become more and more beholden to those that can afford to pony up the money….
[/quote]
Couple of problems here:
-These decisions (votes and compromises) are being made by legislators. I doubt Susan Davis’ office (she is my house member) spends “millions and millions” on her campaign. Having visited her office, I doubt they spend even thousands on much.
-Also the nature of democracy is to limit the inequities of capitalism. It is easy to influence decisions but hard to literally buy election.
[quote=Allan from Fallbrook]
As far as this health care bill goes: It is a mess. Its a cumbersome piece of legislation …
[/quote]
Yeah I get that you don’t like it.
[quote=Allan from Fallbrook]
special interest, industry groups and lobbyists to put their mark on legislation without the pesky issue of debate or review.

[/quote]
The argument here is that there has not been enough debate? They have had piles of debate and versions passed both houses after considerable review and reworking.
[quote=Allan from Fallbrook]

The MSM, which, once upon a time, had investigative journalists and diligently reported the news, is completely AWOL…
[/quote]
So your other argument is that the news is ignoring health care?
[quote=Allan from Fallbrook]
Our politicians don’t answer to us anymore…
[/quote]
Again, we lost the right to vote?
We don’t prosecute kleptocrats?
[quote=Allan from Fallbrook]
The actions of government as of late are either confiscatory (in terms of wealth redistribution), intrusive (Patriot I and II) or illegal (takeovers, bailouts or foreign wars that DON’T protect the well being or interest of US citizens).

Didn’t we already go to war over this shit before (American Revolution)?

[/quote]
No. We attempted to fight for our rights as British subjects (like voting). It kind of snowballed when the government explicitly asserted that we had neither our guaranteed rights nor a right to complain.
[quote=Allan from Fallbrook]
And, no, I’m not the political theorist I mentioned. I might have my self-aggrandizing moments, but I’m not that bad![/quote]
Okay…

[urbanrealtor]

[quote=Allan from Fallbrook]Dan: My point regarding representative democracy was simply this: Money = Access…
[/quote]
I am quivering in respect of this earth-shattering insight.
[quote=Allan from Fallbrook]
Given that it costs millions upon millions of dollars to run for office these days, politicians have become more and more beholden to those that can afford to pony up the money….
[/quote]
Couple of problems here:
-These decisions (votes and compromises) are being made by legislators. I doubt Susan Davis’ office (she is my house member) spends “millions and millions” on her campaign. Having visited her office, I doubt they spend even thousands on much.
-Also the nature of democracy is to limit the inequities of capitalism. It is easy to influence decisions but hard to literally buy election.
[quote=Allan from Fallbrook]
As far as this health care bill goes: It is a mess. Its a cumbersome piece of legislation …
[/quote]
Yeah I get that you don’t like it.
[quote=Allan from Fallbrook]
special interest, industry groups and lobbyists to put their mark on legislation without the pesky issue of debate or review.

[/quote]
The argument here is that there has not been enough debate? They have had piles of debate and versions passed both houses after considerable review and reworking.
[quote=Allan from Fallbrook]

The MSM, which, once upon a time, had investigative journalists and diligently reported the news, is completely AWOL…
[/quote]
So your other argument is that the news is ignoring health care?
[quote=Allan from Fallbrook]
Our politicians don’t answer to us anymore…
[/quote]
Again, we lost the right to vote?
We don’t prosecute kleptocrats?
[quote=Allan from Fallbrook]
The actions of government as of late are either confiscatory (in terms of wealth redistribution), intrusive (Patriot I and II) or illegal (takeovers, bailouts or foreign wars that DON’T protect the well being or interest of US citizens).

Didn’t we already go to war over this shit before (American Revolution)?

[/quote]
No. We attempted to fight for our rights as British subjects (like voting). It kind of snowballed when the government explicitly asserted that we had neither our guaranteed rights nor a right to complain.
[quote=Allan from Fallbrook]
And, no, I’m not the political theorist I mentioned. I might have my self-aggrandizing moments, but I’m not that bad![/quote]
Okay…

[urbanrealtor]

[quote=Allan from Fallbrook]Dan: My point regarding representative democracy was simply this: Money = Access…
[/quote]
I am quivering in respect of this earth-shattering insight.
[quote=Allan from Fallbrook]
Given that it costs millions upon millions of dollars to run for office these days, politicians have become more and more beholden to those that can afford to pony up the money….
[/quote]
Couple of problems here:
-These decisions (votes and compromises) are being made by legislators. I doubt Susan Davis’ office (she is my house member) spends “millions and millions” on her campaign. Having visited her office, I doubt they spend even thousands on much.
-Also the nature of democracy is to limit the inequities of capitalism. It is easy to influence decisions but hard to literally buy election.
[quote=Allan from Fallbrook]
As far as this health care bill goes: It is a mess. Its a cumbersome piece of legislation …
[/quote]
Yeah I get that you don’t like it.
[quote=Allan from Fallbrook]
special interest, industry groups and lobbyists to put their mark on legislation without the pesky issue of debate or review.

[/quote]
The argument here is that there has not been enough debate? They have had piles of debate and versions passed both houses after considerable review and reworking.
[quote=Allan from Fallbrook]

The MSM, which, once upon a time, had investigative journalists and diligently reported the news, is completely AWOL…
[/quote]
So your other argument is that the news is ignoring health care?
[quote=Allan from Fallbrook]
Our politicians don’t answer to us anymore…
[/quote]
Again, we lost the right to vote?
We don’t prosecute kleptocrats?
[quote=Allan from Fallbrook]
The actions of government as of late are either confiscatory (in terms of wealth redistribution), intrusive (Patriot I and II) or illegal (takeovers, bailouts or foreign wars that DON’T protect the well being or interest of US citizens).

Didn’t we already go to war over this shit before (American Revolution)?

[/quote]
No. We attempted to fight for our rights as British subjects (like voting). It kind of snowballed when the government explicitly asserted that we had neither our guaranteed rights nor a right to complain.
[quote=Allan from Fallbrook]
And, no, I’m not the political theorist I mentioned. I might have my self-aggrandizing moments, but I’m not that bad![/quote]
Okay…

[urbanrealtor]

[quote=Allan from Fallbrook]Dan: My point regarding representative democracy was simply this: Money = Access…
[/quote]
I am quivering in respect of this earth-shattering insight.
[quote=Allan from Fallbrook]
Given that it costs millions upon millions of dollars to run for office these days, politicians have become more and more beholden to those that can afford to pony up the money….
[/quote]
Couple of problems here:
-These decisions (votes and compromises) are being made by legislators. I doubt Susan Davis’ office (she is my house member) spends “millions and millions” on her campaign. Having visited her office, I doubt they spend even thousands on much.
-Also the nature of democracy is to limit the inequities of capitalism. It is easy to influence decisions but hard to literally buy election.
[quote=Allan from Fallbrook]
As far as this health care bill goes: It is a mess. Its a cumbersome piece of legislation …
[/quote]
Yeah I get that you don’t like it.
[quote=Allan from Fallbrook]
special interest, industry groups and lobbyists to put their mark on legislation without the pesky issue of debate or review.

[/quote]
The argument here is that there has not been enough debate? They have had piles of debate and versions passed both houses after considerable review and reworking.
[quote=Allan from Fallbrook]

The MSM, which, once upon a time, had investigative journalists and diligently reported the news, is completely AWOL…
[/quote]
So your other argument is that the news is ignoring health care?
[quote=Allan from Fallbrook]
Our politicians don’t answer to us anymore…
[/quote]
Again, we lost the right to vote?
We don’t prosecute kleptocrats?
[quote=Allan from Fallbrook]
The actions of government as of late are either confiscatory (in terms of wealth redistribution), intrusive (Patriot I and II) or illegal (takeovers, bailouts or foreign wars that DON’T protect the well being or interest of US citizens).

Didn’t we already go to war over this shit before (American Revolution)?

[/quote]
No. We attempted to fight for our rights as British subjects (like voting). It kind of snowballed when the government explicitly asserted that we had neither our guaranteed rights nor a right to complain.
[quote=Allan from Fallbrook]
And, no, I’m not the political theorist I mentioned. I might have my self-aggrandizing moments, but I’m not that bad![/quote]
Okay…

[aldante]

[quote=PDQ][quote=NeetaT]In my opinion, healthcare is not a right. Healthcare is a service that is priced via supply and demand just like other goods and services. No one will ever agree with me, but I know that if there was no such thing as health insurance, prices for health services would adjust to average income, thus more people could afford it out of pocket. Those who claim they can’t afford healthcare costs are the same people who can somehow find a way to buy a new car or go on a lavish vacation. All I can say is please “Kill the Bill” so that I am not fleeced for more taxes. I will gladly pay for my own healthcare thank you.[/quote]

Let me guess: You have insurance supplied by your employer and/or you have no health issues, right?

Were you older with heart disease or some other “pre-existing condition” that rendered health insurance unaffordable you might feel differently.

Hopefully when you grow up and have a family you won’t have any children with health problems either. Having to fight for coverage for a child born with a health condition is no fun.

But I’m sure you’re young, buff and vital so that’s no issue for you. Be sure to marry well to someone else who’s young, strong and healthy. And if any of your children appear to be defective while in the womb, just abort them. The “master race” and all.

Oh…did I mention that you couldn’t have any pre-existing conditions like injuries from skiing, or athletic activities? If you work for a small business (and you sound like a big proponent of self-sufficiency and small business) you won’t be able to get coverage for “pre-existing” conditions. That would mean you’d actually have to pay for your own healthcare!!!!

But I’m sure you already know all of that seeing as how you’re an insurance expert[/quote]

Don’t you know that the only reason that the healthcare companies exist in this form is that their near monoploies were created and continue to be protected by Congress!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
The ignorance on this topic is why we should be taking our time not having this shoved down our throats.

[aldante]

[quote=PDQ][quote=NeetaT]In my opinion, healthcare is not a right. Healthcare is a service that is priced via supply and demand just like other goods and services. No one will ever agree with me, but I know that if there was no such thing as health insurance, prices for health services would adjust to average income, thus more people could afford it out of pocket. Those who claim they can’t afford healthcare costs are the same people who can somehow find a way to buy a new car or go on a lavish vacation. All I can say is please “Kill the Bill” so that I am not fleeced for more taxes. I will gladly pay for my own healthcare thank you.[/quote]

Let me guess: You have insurance supplied by your employer and/or you have no health issues, right?

Were you older with heart disease or some other “pre-existing condition” that rendered health insurance unaffordable you might feel differently.

Hopefully when you grow up and have a family you won’t have any children with health problems either. Having to fight for coverage for a child born with a health condition is no fun.

But I’m sure you’re young, buff and vital so that’s no issue for you. Be sure to marry well to someone else who’s young, strong and healthy. And if any of your children appear to be defective while in the womb, just abort them. The “master race” and all.

Oh…did I mention that you couldn’t have any pre-existing conditions like injuries from skiing, or athletic activities? If you work for a small business (and you sound like a big proponent of self-sufficiency and small business) you won’t be able to get coverage for “pre-existing” conditions. That would mean you’d actually have to pay for your own healthcare!!!!

But I’m sure you already know all of that seeing as how you’re an insurance expert[/quote]

Don’t you know that the only reason that the healthcare companies exist in this form is that their near monoploies were created and continue to be protected by Congress!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
The ignorance on this topic is why we should be taking our time not having this shoved down our throats.

[aldante]

[quote=PDQ][quote=NeetaT]In my opinion, healthcare is not a right. Healthcare is a service that is priced via supply and demand just like other goods and services. No one will ever agree with me, but I know that if there was no such thing as health insurance, prices for health services would adjust to average income, thus more people could afford it out of pocket. Those who claim they can’t afford healthcare costs are the same people who can somehow find a way to buy a new car or go on a lavish vacation. All I can say is please “Kill the Bill” so that I am not fleeced for more taxes. I will gladly pay for my own healthcare thank you.[/quote]

Let me guess: You have insurance supplied by your employer and/or you have no health issues, right?

Were you older with heart disease or some other “pre-existing condition” that rendered health insurance unaffordable you might feel differently.

Hopefully when you grow up and have a family you won’t have any children with health problems either. Having to fight for coverage for a child born with a health condition is no fun.

But I’m sure you’re young, buff and vital so that’s no issue for you. Be sure to marry well to someone else who’s young, strong and healthy. And if any of your children appear to be defective while in the womb, just abort them. The “master race” and all.

Oh…did I mention that you couldn’t have any pre-existing conditions like injuries from skiing, or athletic activities? If you work for a small business (and you sound like a big proponent of self-sufficiency and small business) you won’t be able to get coverage for “pre-existing” conditions. That would mean you’d actually have to pay for your own healthcare!!!!

But I’m sure you already know all of that seeing as how you’re an insurance expert[/quote]

Don’t you know that the only reason that the healthcare companies exist in this form is that their near monoploies were created and continue to be protected by Congress!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
The ignorance on this topic is why we should be taking our time not having this shoved down our throats.

[aldante]

[quote=PDQ][quote=NeetaT]In my opinion, healthcare is not a right. Healthcare is a service that is priced via supply and demand just like other goods and services. No one will ever agree with me, but I know that if there was no such thing as health insurance, prices for health services would adjust to average income, thus more people could afford it out of pocket. Those who claim they can’t afford healthcare costs are the same people who can somehow find a way to buy a new car or go on a lavish vacation. All I can say is please “Kill the Bill” so that I am not fleeced for more taxes. I will gladly pay for my own healthcare thank you.[/quote]

Let me guess: You have insurance supplied by your employer and/or you have no health issues, right?

Were you older with heart disease or some other “pre-existing condition” that rendered health insurance unaffordable you might feel differently.

Hopefully when you grow up and have a family you won’t have any children with health problems either. Having to fight for coverage for a child born with a health condition is no fun.

But I’m sure you’re young, buff and vital so that’s no issue for you. Be sure to marry well to someone else who’s young, strong and healthy. And if any of your children appear to be defective while in the womb, just abort them. The “master race” and all.

Oh…did I mention that you couldn’t have any pre-existing conditions like injuries from skiing, or athletic activities? If you work for a small business (and you sound like a big proponent of self-sufficiency and small business) you won’t be able to get coverage for “pre-existing” conditions. That would mean you’d actually have to pay for your own healthcare!!!!

But I’m sure you already know all of that seeing as how you’re an insurance expert[/quote]

Don’t you know that the only reason that the healthcare companies exist in this form is that their near monoploies were created and continue to be protected by Congress!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
The ignorance on this topic is why we should be taking our time not having this shoved down our throats.

[Author]

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