Healthcare is not a right!?

[KSMountain]

[quote=qwerty007]The vote against the health care bill, is a vote against health care reform. I hear these insipid, poorly informed arguments, that are mostly baseless and come from a fear of the unknown, or some partisan BS, or worse some utopian idealism that is about as useful as an ashtray on a motorcycle. There is no precedent in the US for a single payer system, or government run option, or any mixture or combination of systems that currently exist through out the world. Therefore there is no experience of another system, so how can you possibly argue that because something works in another part of the world, it can’t possibly work in the US. These arguments either stem from an arrogance that everything in the US is better, or from an ignorance, or lack of experience of other systems. A closed mind and ignorance makes a people their own worst enemy.

Why not do what Taiwan did? Go around the world and take the best bits of all the other systems, discarding what doesn’t work, and forge a health care reform plan that can’t fail to make everyone proud and happy. Why is that so hard?[/quote]

Here’s some folks in Scotland who evidently think their system could be a lot better:
http://subrosa-blonde.blogspot.com/2009/09/nicola-sturgeon-pledges-ecmo-machine.html

Why do you assume qwerty007 that it will NOT “be so hard” to create a huge new beauracracy capable of treating 300 million people out of whole cloth. I think it much more likely to assume that yeah, that would be a difficult thing to do.

Why not experiment on a smaller scale first? Why do we have to rope everybody in the whole country into something written in a hurry, and voted on in almost commpletely partisan manner?

[briansd1]

I don’t think that healthcare is a right. But a compassionate society should provide basic health care to its citizens.

Health care needs to be rationed so that it benefits society as whole and not groups of individuals.

People don’t have rights to expensive health care services beyond the basics society has selected to provide to all.

Rather than deciding what services should be provided, we should have a universal health care system that pays for the first X amount in health care costs, based on a sliding income scale. People who make more money need to pay for their own health care/insurance.

[briansd1]

I don’t think that healthcare is a right. But a compassionate society should provide basic health care to its citizens.

Health care needs to be rationed so that it benefits society as whole and not groups of individuals.

People don’t have rights to expensive health care services beyond the basics society has selected to provide to all.

Rather than deciding what services should be provided, we should have a universal health care system that pays for the first X amount in health care costs, based on a sliding income scale. People who make more money need to pay for their own health care/insurance.

[briansd1]

I don’t think that healthcare is a right. But a compassionate society should provide basic health care to its citizens.

Health care needs to be rationed so that it benefits society as whole and not groups of individuals.

People don’t have rights to expensive health care services beyond the basics society has selected to provide to all.

Rather than deciding what services should be provided, we should have a universal health care system that pays for the first X amount in health care costs, based on a sliding income scale. People who make more money need to pay for their own health care/insurance.

[briansd1]

I don’t think that healthcare is a right. But a compassionate society should provide basic health care to its citizens.

Health care needs to be rationed so that it benefits society as whole and not groups of individuals.

People don’t have rights to expensive health care services beyond the basics society has selected to provide to all.

Rather than deciding what services should be provided, we should have a universal health care system that pays for the first X amount in health care costs, based on a sliding income scale. People who make more money need to pay for their own health care/insurance.

[briansd1]

I don’t think that healthcare is a right. But a compassionate society should provide basic health care to its citizens.

Health care needs to be rationed so that it benefits society as whole and not groups of individuals.

People don’t have rights to expensive health care services beyond the basics society has selected to provide to all.

Rather than deciding what services should be provided, we should have a universal health care system that pays for the first X amount in health care costs, based on a sliding income scale. People who make more money need to pay for their own health care/insurance.

[Allan from Fallbrook]

Dan: My point regarding representative democracy was simply this: Money = Access. Whether its the bank bailout or health care “reform”, those who are granted the most access have the most money.

Given that it costs millions upon millions of dollars to run for office these days, politicians have become more and more beholden to those that can afford to pony up the money. While I understand your point about campaign contributions and limitations, the fact is that legislation like McCain – Feingold can fairly easily be skirted.

As far as this health care bill goes: It is a mess. Its a cumbersome piece of legislation and one that was rushed, without a lot of intelligent debate. There has been considerable horse trading behind the scenes and while I agree that politics is the “art of the possible” and compromise is necessary, that has become political cover for allowing special interest, industry groups and lobbyists to put their mark on legislation without the pesky issue of debate or review.

The MSM, which, once upon a time, had investigative journalists and diligently reported the news, is completely AWOL. Apparently, Tiger Woods and his various dalliances are more important than helping develop a meaningful dialogue and discussion on this issue (or any other issues, for that matter).

Our politicians don’t answer to us anymore and the “will of the people” is a hollow concept. I agree with Ricechex when she says that this is simply another boondoogle and that ties into Arraya’s point about the kleptocratic nature of Big Government when it fully aligns with Big Business.

The actions of government as of late are either confiscatory (in terms of wealth redistribution), intrusive (Patriot I and II) or illegal (takeovers, bailouts or foreign wars that DON’T protect the well being or interest of US citizens).

Didn’t we already go to war over this shit before (American Revolution)?

And, no, I’m not the political theorist I mentioned. I might have my self-aggrandizing moments, but I’m not that bad!

[Allan from Fallbrook]

Dan: My point regarding representative democracy was simply this: Money = Access. Whether its the bank bailout or health care “reform”, those who are granted the most access have the most money.

Given that it costs millions upon millions of dollars to run for office these days, politicians have become more and more beholden to those that can afford to pony up the money. While I understand your point about campaign contributions and limitations, the fact is that legislation like McCain – Feingold can fairly easily be skirted.

As far as this health care bill goes: It is a mess. Its a cumbersome piece of legislation and one that was rushed, without a lot of intelligent debate. There has been considerable horse trading behind the scenes and while I agree that politics is the “art of the possible” and compromise is necessary, that has become political cover for allowing special interest, industry groups and lobbyists to put their mark on legislation without the pesky issue of debate or review.

The MSM, which, once upon a time, had investigative journalists and diligently reported the news, is completely AWOL. Apparently, Tiger Woods and his various dalliances are more important than helping develop a meaningful dialogue and discussion on this issue (or any other issues, for that matter).

Our politicians don’t answer to us anymore and the “will of the people” is a hollow concept. I agree with Ricechex when she says that this is simply another boondoogle and that ties into Arraya’s point about the kleptocratic nature of Big Government when it fully aligns with Big Business.

The actions of government as of late are either confiscatory (in terms of wealth redistribution), intrusive (Patriot I and II) or illegal (takeovers, bailouts or foreign wars that DON’T protect the well being or interest of US citizens).

Didn’t we already go to war over this shit before (American Revolution)?

And, no, I’m not the political theorist I mentioned. I might have my self-aggrandizing moments, but I’m not that bad!

[Allan from Fallbrook]

Dan: My point regarding representative democracy was simply this: Money = Access. Whether its the bank bailout or health care “reform”, those who are granted the most access have the most money.

Given that it costs millions upon millions of dollars to run for office these days, politicians have become more and more beholden to those that can afford to pony up the money. While I understand your point about campaign contributions and limitations, the fact is that legislation like McCain – Feingold can fairly easily be skirted.

As far as this health care bill goes: It is a mess. Its a cumbersome piece of legislation and one that was rushed, without a lot of intelligent debate. There has been considerable horse trading behind the scenes and while I agree that politics is the “art of the possible” and compromise is necessary, that has become political cover for allowing special interest, industry groups and lobbyists to put their mark on legislation without the pesky issue of debate or review.

The MSM, which, once upon a time, had investigative journalists and diligently reported the news, is completely AWOL. Apparently, Tiger Woods and his various dalliances are more important than helping develop a meaningful dialogue and discussion on this issue (or any other issues, for that matter).

Our politicians don’t answer to us anymore and the “will of the people” is a hollow concept. I agree with Ricechex when she says that this is simply another boondoogle and that ties into Arraya’s point about the kleptocratic nature of Big Government when it fully aligns with Big Business.

The actions of government as of late are either confiscatory (in terms of wealth redistribution), intrusive (Patriot I and II) or illegal (takeovers, bailouts or foreign wars that DON’T protect the well being or interest of US citizens).

Didn’t we already go to war over this shit before (American Revolution)?

And, no, I’m not the political theorist I mentioned. I might have my self-aggrandizing moments, but I’m not that bad!

[Allan from Fallbrook]

Dan: My point regarding representative democracy was simply this: Money = Access. Whether its the bank bailout or health care “reform”, those who are granted the most access have the most money.

Given that it costs millions upon millions of dollars to run for office these days, politicians have become more and more beholden to those that can afford to pony up the money. While I understand your point about campaign contributions and limitations, the fact is that legislation like McCain – Feingold can fairly easily be skirted.

As far as this health care bill goes: It is a mess. Its a cumbersome piece of legislation and one that was rushed, without a lot of intelligent debate. There has been considerable horse trading behind the scenes and while I agree that politics is the “art of the possible” and compromise is necessary, that has become political cover for allowing special interest, industry groups and lobbyists to put their mark on legislation without the pesky issue of debate or review.

The MSM, which, once upon a time, had investigative journalists and diligently reported the news, is completely AWOL. Apparently, Tiger Woods and his various dalliances are more important than helping develop a meaningful dialogue and discussion on this issue (or any other issues, for that matter).

Our politicians don’t answer to us anymore and the “will of the people” is a hollow concept. I agree with Ricechex when she says that this is simply another boondoogle and that ties into Arraya’s point about the kleptocratic nature of Big Government when it fully aligns with Big Business.

The actions of government as of late are either confiscatory (in terms of wealth redistribution), intrusive (Patriot I and II) or illegal (takeovers, bailouts or foreign wars that DON’T protect the well being or interest of US citizens).

Didn’t we already go to war over this shit before (American Revolution)?

And, no, I’m not the political theorist I mentioned. I might have my self-aggrandizing moments, but I’m not that bad!

[Allan from Fallbrook]

Dan: My point regarding representative democracy was simply this: Money = Access. Whether its the bank bailout or health care “reform”, those who are granted the most access have the most money.

Given that it costs millions upon millions of dollars to run for office these days, politicians have become more and more beholden to those that can afford to pony up the money. While I understand your point about campaign contributions and limitations, the fact is that legislation like McCain – Feingold can fairly easily be skirted.

As far as this health care bill goes: It is a mess. Its a cumbersome piece of legislation and one that was rushed, without a lot of intelligent debate. There has been considerable horse trading behind the scenes and while I agree that politics is the “art of the possible” and compromise is necessary, that has become political cover for allowing special interest, industry groups and lobbyists to put their mark on legislation without the pesky issue of debate or review.

The MSM, which, once upon a time, had investigative journalists and diligently reported the news, is completely AWOL. Apparently, Tiger Woods and his various dalliances are more important than helping develop a meaningful dialogue and discussion on this issue (or any other issues, for that matter).

Our politicians don’t answer to us anymore and the “will of the people” is a hollow concept. I agree with Ricechex when she says that this is simply another boondoogle and that ties into Arraya’s point about the kleptocratic nature of Big Government when it fully aligns with Big Business.

The actions of government as of late are either confiscatory (in terms of wealth redistribution), intrusive (Patriot I and II) or illegal (takeovers, bailouts or foreign wars that DON’T protect the well being or interest of US citizens).

Didn’t we already go to war over this shit before (American Revolution)?

And, no, I’m not the political theorist I mentioned. I might have my self-aggrandizing moments, but I’m not that bad!

[aldante]

[quote=pri_dk]I’m not sure why it matters if health care is a “right.” Most of the functions of government are not related to specific, individual rights.

The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States […]

The Constitution does not state that the “common Defence” is a right. It says that defense is a function of government, and the government can tax the people to provide it. If the government were only to spend money on “rights,” then we would have no military.

The more interesting question is this: Does the health care fall under the definition of “general Welfare of the United States?” To the extent it does, health care can legally be under the control of the federal government.[/quote]

Look at who is advertising on the MSM – pharmacuticals and health care organizations…..

[aldante]

[quote=pri_dk]I’m not sure why it matters if health care is a “right.” Most of the functions of government are not related to specific, individual rights.

The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States […]

The Constitution does not state that the “common Defence” is a right. It says that defense is a function of government, and the government can tax the people to provide it. If the government were only to spend money on “rights,” then we would have no military.

The more interesting question is this: Does the health care fall under the definition of “general Welfare of the United States?” To the extent it does, health care can legally be under the control of the federal government.[/quote]

Look at who is advertising on the MSM – pharmacuticals and health care organizations…..

[aldante]

[quote=pri_dk]I’m not sure why it matters if health care is a “right.” Most of the functions of government are not related to specific, individual rights.

The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States […]

The Constitution does not state that the “common Defence” is a right. It says that defense is a function of government, and the government can tax the people to provide it. If the government were only to spend money on “rights,” then we would have no military.

The more interesting question is this: Does the health care fall under the definition of “general Welfare of the United States?” To the extent it does, health care can legally be under the control of the federal government.[/quote]

Look at who is advertising on the MSM – pharmacuticals and health care organizations…..

[aldante]

[quote=pri_dk]I’m not sure why it matters if health care is a “right.” Most of the functions of government are not related to specific, individual rights.

The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States […]

The Constitution does not state that the “common Defence” is a right. It says that defense is a function of government, and the government can tax the people to provide it. If the government were only to spend money on “rights,” then we would have no military.

The more interesting question is this: Does the health care fall under the definition of “general Welfare of the United States?” To the extent it does, health care can legally be under the control of the federal government.[/quote]

Look at who is advertising on the MSM – pharmacuticals and health care organizations…..

[Author]

Posts