Healthcare is not a right!?

[34f3f3f]

Hmmm! Sduuuude, I think you might be missing the point here, or are just splitting hairs. Nobody’s talking about killing people. Health care is about keeping people alive …unless you are referring to the death wards:)

Well, if they voluntarily decide it, they also deem it. To deem is not to enforce. You’re splitting hairs.

The reason the costs are so high is that profit comes before right, shareholders before policy holders, greed before restraint, incompetence before efficiency. You can say the government indirectly has a hand in influencing everything, but that doesn’t makes it the main culprit, unless that is, it had the opportunity to make something right and failed to do, as is the danger in this case.

I don’t follow your argument about punishing people for not upholding their moral duty. The punishment comes from not educating people as to the facts, and therefore denying them the right to make those proper, or ‘moral’ choices in the first place. I use moral in a general utilitarian sense, and convey no religious overtones. We practice morality in the tiniest of social norms, which don’t necessarily conform to any written creed.

Do you like pizza by any chance?

[KSMountain]

[quote=poorgradstudent]”A society is ultimately judged by how it treats its weakest and most vulnerable members.”

“‘I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.'” Jesus in Matthew 25:40

The morality of universal healthcare sadly fell to the wayside early in the debate. To me, it is clearly the right and just thing to do. The United States lags behind the developed world in many ways, and hopefully we will close the gap further.[/quote]
So you feel that your interpretation of morality is sufficient to justify a new trillion dollar entitlement that the rest of all your countrymen must comply with? What if someone else’s definition of the moral oligation of government is different?

When you say “it” is the clearly right thing to do, what does “it” mean? For example, how much money is it morally right to spend on a very premature baby? $1 million? $10 million? Who pays for that? Same with a very elderly person. Who makes those decisions?

[KSMountain]

[quote=poorgradstudent]”A society is ultimately judged by how it treats its weakest and most vulnerable members.”

“‘I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.'” Jesus in Matthew 25:40

The morality of universal healthcare sadly fell to the wayside early in the debate. To me, it is clearly the right and just thing to do. The United States lags behind the developed world in many ways, and hopefully we will close the gap further.[/quote]
So you feel that your interpretation of morality is sufficient to justify a new trillion dollar entitlement that the rest of all your countrymen must comply with? What if someone else’s definition of the moral oligation of government is different?

When you say “it” is the clearly right thing to do, what does “it” mean? For example, how much money is it morally right to spend on a very premature baby? $1 million? $10 million? Who pays for that? Same with a very elderly person. Who makes those decisions?

[KSMountain]

[quote=poorgradstudent]”A society is ultimately judged by how it treats its weakest and most vulnerable members.”

“‘I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.'” Jesus in Matthew 25:40

The morality of universal healthcare sadly fell to the wayside early in the debate. To me, it is clearly the right and just thing to do. The United States lags behind the developed world in many ways, and hopefully we will close the gap further.[/quote]
So you feel that your interpretation of morality is sufficient to justify a new trillion dollar entitlement that the rest of all your countrymen must comply with? What if someone else’s definition of the moral oligation of government is different?

When you say “it” is the clearly right thing to do, what does “it” mean? For example, how much money is it morally right to spend on a very premature baby? $1 million? $10 million? Who pays for that? Same with a very elderly person. Who makes those decisions?

[KSMountain]

[quote=poorgradstudent]”A society is ultimately judged by how it treats its weakest and most vulnerable members.”

“‘I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.'” Jesus in Matthew 25:40

The morality of universal healthcare sadly fell to the wayside early in the debate. To me, it is clearly the right and just thing to do. The United States lags behind the developed world in many ways, and hopefully we will close the gap further.[/quote]
So you feel that your interpretation of morality is sufficient to justify a new trillion dollar entitlement that the rest of all your countrymen must comply with? What if someone else’s definition of the moral oligation of government is different?

When you say “it” is the clearly right thing to do, what does “it” mean? For example, how much money is it morally right to spend on a very premature baby? $1 million? $10 million? Who pays for that? Same with a very elderly person. Who makes those decisions?

[KSMountain]

[quote=poorgradstudent]”A society is ultimately judged by how it treats its weakest and most vulnerable members.”

“‘I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.'” Jesus in Matthew 25:40

The morality of universal healthcare sadly fell to the wayside early in the debate. To me, it is clearly the right and just thing to do. The United States lags behind the developed world in many ways, and hopefully we will close the gap further.[/quote]
So you feel that your interpretation of morality is sufficient to justify a new trillion dollar entitlement that the rest of all your countrymen must comply with? What if someone else’s definition of the moral oligation of government is different?

When you say “it” is the clearly right thing to do, what does “it” mean? For example, how much money is it morally right to spend on a very premature baby? $1 million? $10 million? Who pays for that? Same with a very elderly person. Who makes those decisions?

[34f3f3f]

The vote against the health care bill, is a vote against health care reform. I hear these insipid, poorly informed arguments, that are mostly baseless and come from a fear of the unknown, or some partisan BS, or worse some utopian idealism that is about as useful as an ashtray on a motorcycle. There is no precedent in the US for a single payer system, or government run option, or any mixture or combination of systems that currently exist through out the world. Therefore there is no experience of another system, so how can you possibly argue that because something works in another part of the world, it can’t possibly work in the US. These arguments either stem from an arrogance that everything in the US is better, or from an ignorance, or lack of experience of other systems. A closed mind and ignorance makes a people their own worst enemy.

Why not do what Taiwan did? Go around the world and take the best bits of all the other systems, discarding what doesn’t work, and forge a health care reform plan that can’t fail to make everyone proud and happy. Why is that so hard?

[34f3f3f]

The vote against the health care bill, is a vote against health care reform. I hear these insipid, poorly informed arguments, that are mostly baseless and come from a fear of the unknown, or some partisan BS, or worse some utopian idealism that is about as useful as an ashtray on a motorcycle. There is no precedent in the US for a single payer system, or government run option, or any mixture or combination of systems that currently exist through out the world. Therefore there is no experience of another system, so how can you possibly argue that because something works in another part of the world, it can’t possibly work in the US. These arguments either stem from an arrogance that everything in the US is better, or from an ignorance, or lack of experience of other systems. A closed mind and ignorance makes a people their own worst enemy.

Why not do what Taiwan did? Go around the world and take the best bits of all the other systems, discarding what doesn’t work, and forge a health care reform plan that can’t fail to make everyone proud and happy. Why is that so hard?

[34f3f3f]

The vote against the health care bill, is a vote against health care reform. I hear these insipid, poorly informed arguments, that are mostly baseless and come from a fear of the unknown, or some partisan BS, or worse some utopian idealism that is about as useful as an ashtray on a motorcycle. There is no precedent in the US for a single payer system, or government run option, or any mixture or combination of systems that currently exist through out the world. Therefore there is no experience of another system, so how can you possibly argue that because something works in another part of the world, it can’t possibly work in the US. These arguments either stem from an arrogance that everything in the US is better, or from an ignorance, or lack of experience of other systems. A closed mind and ignorance makes a people their own worst enemy.

Why not do what Taiwan did? Go around the world and take the best bits of all the other systems, discarding what doesn’t work, and forge a health care reform plan that can’t fail to make everyone proud and happy. Why is that so hard?

[34f3f3f]

The vote against the health care bill, is a vote against health care reform. I hear these insipid, poorly informed arguments, that are mostly baseless and come from a fear of the unknown, or some partisan BS, or worse some utopian idealism that is about as useful as an ashtray on a motorcycle. There is no precedent in the US for a single payer system, or government run option, or any mixture or combination of systems that currently exist through out the world. Therefore there is no experience of another system, so how can you possibly argue that because something works in another part of the world, it can’t possibly work in the US. These arguments either stem from an arrogance that everything in the US is better, or from an ignorance, or lack of experience of other systems. A closed mind and ignorance makes a people their own worst enemy.

Why not do what Taiwan did? Go around the world and take the best bits of all the other systems, discarding what doesn’t work, and forge a health care reform plan that can’t fail to make everyone proud and happy. Why is that so hard?

[34f3f3f]

The vote against the health care bill, is a vote against health care reform. I hear these insipid, poorly informed arguments, that are mostly baseless and come from a fear of the unknown, or some partisan BS, or worse some utopian idealism that is about as useful as an ashtray on a motorcycle. There is no precedent in the US for a single payer system, or government run option, or any mixture or combination of systems that currently exist through out the world. Therefore there is no experience of another system, so how can you possibly argue that because something works in another part of the world, it can’t possibly work in the US. These arguments either stem from an arrogance that everything in the US is better, or from an ignorance, or lack of experience of other systems. A closed mind and ignorance makes a people their own worst enemy.

Why not do what Taiwan did? Go around the world and take the best bits of all the other systems, discarding what doesn’t work, and forge a health care reform plan that can’t fail to make everyone proud and happy. Why is that so hard?

[KSMountain]

[quote=NeetaT]Healthcare is a service that is priced via supply and demand just like other goods and services.[/quote]
I don’t know whether this is true, but it should be. And we should take steps to make it true.

[quote=NeetaT]No one will ever agree with me, but I know that if there was no such thing as health insurance, prices for health services would adjust to average income, thus more people could afford it out of pocket.[/quote]
I kind of agree with you. For other services, we pay when rendered. For example car repair, or plumbing, or whatever. I think the whole “insurance” thing confuses the issue and masks the costs.

[quote=NeetaT]I will gladly pay for my own healthcare thank you.[/quote]
Well, you would while you’re young and healthy.

Here’s a question: is “health insurance” really code for “I’d like to receive more healthcare than I pay for.”? For example, it seems to me most people want about $0.5M lifetime worth of healthcare (especially counting end of life costs), but they’d like to only pay maybe $50K over their lifetime. If everyone in the country gets ten times more than they put it in, the thing cannot work.

For other kinds of insurance, say Auto, Fire, earthquake, flood, theft, etc, you don’t really expect to use it. The system works because in aggregate folks put in much more than is taken out. The moment that ceases to be the case you don’t have solvent insurance companies.

Is “health insurance” then different? Aren’t we really talking about “health subsidy”?

Someone tell me if I’ve got that wrong.

[KSMountain]

[quote=NeetaT]Healthcare is a service that is priced via supply and demand just like other goods and services.[/quote]
I don’t know whether this is true, but it should be. And we should take steps to make it true.

[quote=NeetaT]No one will ever agree with me, but I know that if there was no such thing as health insurance, prices for health services would adjust to average income, thus more people could afford it out of pocket.[/quote]
I kind of agree with you. For other services, we pay when rendered. For example car repair, or plumbing, or whatever. I think the whole “insurance” thing confuses the issue and masks the costs.

[quote=NeetaT]I will gladly pay for my own healthcare thank you.[/quote]
Well, you would while you’re young and healthy.

Here’s a question: is “health insurance” really code for “I’d like to receive more healthcare than I pay for.”? For example, it seems to me most people want about $0.5M lifetime worth of healthcare (especially counting end of life costs), but they’d like to only pay maybe $50K over their lifetime. If everyone in the country gets ten times more than they put it in, the thing cannot work.

For other kinds of insurance, say Auto, Fire, earthquake, flood, theft, etc, you don’t really expect to use it. The system works because in aggregate folks put in much more than is taken out. The moment that ceases to be the case you don’t have solvent insurance companies.

Is “health insurance” then different? Aren’t we really talking about “health subsidy”?

Someone tell me if I’ve got that wrong.

[KSMountain]

[quote=NeetaT]Healthcare is a service that is priced via supply and demand just like other goods and services.[/quote]
I don’t know whether this is true, but it should be. And we should take steps to make it true.

[quote=NeetaT]No one will ever agree with me, but I know that if there was no such thing as health insurance, prices for health services would adjust to average income, thus more people could afford it out of pocket.[/quote]
I kind of agree with you. For other services, we pay when rendered. For example car repair, or plumbing, or whatever. I think the whole “insurance” thing confuses the issue and masks the costs.

[quote=NeetaT]I will gladly pay for my own healthcare thank you.[/quote]
Well, you would while you’re young and healthy.

Here’s a question: is “health insurance” really code for “I’d like to receive more healthcare than I pay for.”? For example, it seems to me most people want about $0.5M lifetime worth of healthcare (especially counting end of life costs), but they’d like to only pay maybe $50K over their lifetime. If everyone in the country gets ten times more than they put it in, the thing cannot work.

For other kinds of insurance, say Auto, Fire, earthquake, flood, theft, etc, you don’t really expect to use it. The system works because in aggregate folks put in much more than is taken out. The moment that ceases to be the case you don’t have solvent insurance companies.

Is “health insurance” then different? Aren’t we really talking about “health subsidy”?

Someone tell me if I’ve got that wrong.

[KSMountain]

[quote=NeetaT]Healthcare is a service that is priced via supply and demand just like other goods and services.[/quote]
I don’t know whether this is true, but it should be. And we should take steps to make it true.

[quote=NeetaT]No one will ever agree with me, but I know that if there was no such thing as health insurance, prices for health services would adjust to average income, thus more people could afford it out of pocket.[/quote]
I kind of agree with you. For other services, we pay when rendered. For example car repair, or plumbing, or whatever. I think the whole “insurance” thing confuses the issue and masks the costs.

[quote=NeetaT]I will gladly pay for my own healthcare thank you.[/quote]
Well, you would while you’re young and healthy.

Here’s a question: is “health insurance” really code for “I’d like to receive more healthcare than I pay for.”? For example, it seems to me most people want about $0.5M lifetime worth of healthcare (especially counting end of life costs), but they’d like to only pay maybe $50K over their lifetime. If everyone in the country gets ten times more than they put it in, the thing cannot work.

For other kinds of insurance, say Auto, Fire, earthquake, flood, theft, etc, you don’t really expect to use it. The system works because in aggregate folks put in much more than is taken out. The moment that ceases to be the case you don’t have solvent insurance companies.

Is “health insurance” then different? Aren’t we really talking about “health subsidy”?

Someone tell me if I’ve got that wrong.

[Author]

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