OT: Gay History in California Public Schools

[meadandale]

[quote=flu]Even liberal folks like some people here (not naming names), who champion diversity, always rails against “fat people”….[/quote]

I think his name rhymes with briansd1…

[Shadowfax]

flu–In a sense I agree with you–live and let live should be the rule in school. But the age of reason in children comes long after they are all thrown in together in schools. Bottom line, it boils down to respecting each other, not being “sensitive” to another’s failings or differences. Nerdiness should be aspired to and obesity should be addressed as a health concern. Being an effeminate boy (in lower grades maybe) and identifying as a gay adolescent should not be labled abnormal.

As for discipline, when was the last time you were out on a school playground at recess? Do you see the 3-5 minimum wage lunch aids standing around? Some of them are retirees–do you think they have great vision and hearing? Can they sprint 50 yards to the far end of the blacktop to break up a fight? How are they supposed to “discipline” 100 elementary or jr high school kids when the budgets are so low that the school only pays them to come in for the 2 hours a day that they serve lunch and have recess? The volunteer moms at the high school are not going to jump in to separate a gang of boys mixing it up. In the classroom, teachers are trying to teach and constantly have to play disciplinarian as well. So, yeah, these transgressions should be corrected in school but they often go unseen.

Should parents be teaching their kids that bullying behavior is wrong? Yes. Will the kid who gets a thrill out of bullying get that lesson? No, at least not the first time and maybe not ever. Some people are just born assholes.

The reason kids bully is because 1) they get something out of it 2) someone taught them that picking on someone who is different or weaker than you is ok 3) the population around you (other students) won’t stop you, either because they agree with you or because they are scared of you and 4) there aren’t enough grownups around who either care or have the ability to stop you. (there may be other reasons, but this is my first impression)

One observation made in regard to the college kid (Tyler Clementi) who killed himself at Rutgers after his roommate published a video of him with another man on Youtube: …”we still aren’t noticing bullying until it gets out of hand, until the emotional violence turns into physical violence or, as alleged here, into suicide and indictments.”
The school systems are really coming down hard on bullies but the problem–like any enforcement issue–is resources. Kids will tattle but it takes grownups who actually believe that the bullying is serious enough to stop it. Even within the school parent population, there remain those who think that “playground rules” are a good life lesson, that being different or weird merits you a good beating so you can “get in line” and “be like the rest of us.” And it’s a fine line–sometimes playground rules reinforce good traits–like shoving the kid out of line who cuts in unfairly. So a teacher hears Johnny calling Jane “butch” three times in one day and later sees Jane on the ground crying. Johnny’s deskmate says Johnny pushed her. Ok, send Johnny to the office, Johnny’s parents come in and say, “What? It’s just normal kid behavior?” Bullying?

Lots of kids come into the school system with certain values from home that don’t fit well in a group environment or society at large. Innocuous example: single children who learn pretty quick that they have to wait in line for their turn and to share. Harmful example: that gays are fags and queers and no son of mine is going to be gay or hang out with someone who is and if you ever find one do you should beat the crap out of them. Yes, you know this exists out there and is sometimes supported by whole communities. The lessons not to hurt others should be taught at home but frequently aren’t. And fortunately our schools do a lot of good in this area. Teaching tolerance of any “difference” is the key to changing those practices. Educating kids that the “weird” kid is just another example of the human condition helps this process.

The bright side here is that I find the younger generation is actually waaaay more accepting of differences than the seniors. Conversations with the college-age kids of my friends give me a lot of hope that people are becoming more and more color blind and accepting of all sorts of variations on “normal” that put most retirees’ panties in a bunch. Yay for integration and liberalism! Even that died in the wool tea bagger retracted his views recently and decided that “those people” are ok. (someone chime in on this–it was on an MSNBC program a couple weeks ago, name escapes me)

[Shadowfax]

flu–In a sense I agree with you–live and let live should be the rule in school. But the age of reason in children comes long after they are all thrown in together in schools. Bottom line, it boils down to respecting each other, not being “sensitive” to another’s failings or differences. Nerdiness should be aspired to and obesity should be addressed as a health concern. Being an effeminate boy (in lower grades maybe) and identifying as a gay adolescent should not be labled abnormal.

As for discipline, when was the last time you were out on a school playground at recess? Do you see the 3-5 minimum wage lunch aids standing around? Some of them are retirees–do you think they have great vision and hearing? Can they sprint 50 yards to the far end of the blacktop to break up a fight? How are they supposed to “discipline” 100 elementary or jr high school kids when the budgets are so low that the school only pays them to come in for the 2 hours a day that they serve lunch and have recess? The volunteer moms at the high school are not going to jump in to separate a gang of boys mixing it up. In the classroom, teachers are trying to teach and constantly have to play disciplinarian as well. So, yeah, these transgressions should be corrected in school but they often go unseen.

Should parents be teaching their kids that bullying behavior is wrong? Yes. Will the kid who gets a thrill out of bullying get that lesson? No, at least not the first time and maybe not ever. Some people are just born assholes.

The reason kids bully is because 1) they get something out of it 2) someone taught them that picking on someone who is different or weaker than you is ok 3) the population around you (other students) won’t stop you, either because they agree with you or because they are scared of you and 4) there aren’t enough grownups around who either care or have the ability to stop you. (there may be other reasons, but this is my first impression)

One observation made in regard to the college kid (Tyler Clementi) who killed himself at Rutgers after his roommate published a video of him with another man on Youtube: …”we still aren’t noticing bullying until it gets out of hand, until the emotional violence turns into physical violence or, as alleged here, into suicide and indictments.”
The school systems are really coming down hard on bullies but the problem–like any enforcement issue–is resources. Kids will tattle but it takes grownups who actually believe that the bullying is serious enough to stop it. Even within the school parent population, there remain those who think that “playground rules” are a good life lesson, that being different or weird merits you a good beating so you can “get in line” and “be like the rest of us.” And it’s a fine line–sometimes playground rules reinforce good traits–like shoving the kid out of line who cuts in unfairly. So a teacher hears Johnny calling Jane “butch” three times in one day and later sees Jane on the ground crying. Johnny’s deskmate says Johnny pushed her. Ok, send Johnny to the office, Johnny’s parents come in and say, “What? It’s just normal kid behavior?” Bullying?

Lots of kids come into the school system with certain values from home that don’t fit well in a group environment or society at large. Innocuous example: single children who learn pretty quick that they have to wait in line for their turn and to share. Harmful example: that gays are fags and queers and no son of mine is going to be gay or hang out with someone who is and if you ever find one do you should beat the crap out of them. Yes, you know this exists out there and is sometimes supported by whole communities. The lessons not to hurt others should be taught at home but frequently aren’t. And fortunately our schools do a lot of good in this area. Teaching tolerance of any “difference” is the key to changing those practices. Educating kids that the “weird” kid is just another example of the human condition helps this process.

The bright side here is that I find the younger generation is actually waaaay more accepting of differences than the seniors. Conversations with the college-age kids of my friends give me a lot of hope that people are becoming more and more color blind and accepting of all sorts of variations on “normal” that put most retirees’ panties in a bunch. Yay for integration and liberalism! Even that died in the wool tea bagger retracted his views recently and decided that “those people” are ok. (someone chime in on this–it was on an MSNBC program a couple weeks ago, name escapes me)

[Shadowfax]

flu–In a sense I agree with you–live and let live should be the rule in school. But the age of reason in children comes long after they are all thrown in together in schools. Bottom line, it boils down to respecting each other, not being “sensitive” to another’s failings or differences. Nerdiness should be aspired to and obesity should be addressed as a health concern. Being an effeminate boy (in lower grades maybe) and identifying as a gay adolescent should not be labled abnormal.

As for discipline, when was the last time you were out on a school playground at recess? Do you see the 3-5 minimum wage lunch aids standing around? Some of them are retirees–do you think they have great vision and hearing? Can they sprint 50 yards to the far end of the blacktop to break up a fight? How are they supposed to “discipline” 100 elementary or jr high school kids when the budgets are so low that the school only pays them to come in for the 2 hours a day that they serve lunch and have recess? The volunteer moms at the high school are not going to jump in to separate a gang of boys mixing it up. In the classroom, teachers are trying to teach and constantly have to play disciplinarian as well. So, yeah, these transgressions should be corrected in school but they often go unseen.

Should parents be teaching their kids that bullying behavior is wrong? Yes. Will the kid who gets a thrill out of bullying get that lesson? No, at least not the first time and maybe not ever. Some people are just born assholes.

The reason kids bully is because 1) they get something out of it 2) someone taught them that picking on someone who is different or weaker than you is ok 3) the population around you (other students) won’t stop you, either because they agree with you or because they are scared of you and 4) there aren’t enough grownups around who either care or have the ability to stop you. (there may be other reasons, but this is my first impression)

One observation made in regard to the college kid (Tyler Clementi) who killed himself at Rutgers after his roommate published a video of him with another man on Youtube: …”we still aren’t noticing bullying until it gets out of hand, until the emotional violence turns into physical violence or, as alleged here, into suicide and indictments.”
The school systems are really coming down hard on bullies but the problem–like any enforcement issue–is resources. Kids will tattle but it takes grownups who actually believe that the bullying is serious enough to stop it. Even within the school parent population, there remain those who think that “playground rules” are a good life lesson, that being different or weird merits you a good beating so you can “get in line” and “be like the rest of us.” And it’s a fine line–sometimes playground rules reinforce good traits–like shoving the kid out of line who cuts in unfairly. So a teacher hears Johnny calling Jane “butch” three times in one day and later sees Jane on the ground crying. Johnny’s deskmate says Johnny pushed her. Ok, send Johnny to the office, Johnny’s parents come in and say, “What? It’s just normal kid behavior?” Bullying?

Lots of kids come into the school system with certain values from home that don’t fit well in a group environment or society at large. Innocuous example: single children who learn pretty quick that they have to wait in line for their turn and to share. Harmful example: that gays are fags and queers and no son of mine is going to be gay or hang out with someone who is and if you ever find one do you should beat the crap out of them. Yes, you know this exists out there and is sometimes supported by whole communities. The lessons not to hurt others should be taught at home but frequently aren’t. And fortunately our schools do a lot of good in this area. Teaching tolerance of any “difference” is the key to changing those practices. Educating kids that the “weird” kid is just another example of the human condition helps this process.

The bright side here is that I find the younger generation is actually waaaay more accepting of differences than the seniors. Conversations with the college-age kids of my friends give me a lot of hope that people are becoming more and more color blind and accepting of all sorts of variations on “normal” that put most retirees’ panties in a bunch. Yay for integration and liberalism! Even that died in the wool tea bagger retracted his views recently and decided that “those people” are ok. (someone chime in on this–it was on an MSNBC program a couple weeks ago, name escapes me)

[Shadowfax]

flu–In a sense I agree with you–live and let live should be the rule in school. But the age of reason in children comes long after they are all thrown in together in schools. Bottom line, it boils down to respecting each other, not being “sensitive” to another’s failings or differences. Nerdiness should be aspired to and obesity should be addressed as a health concern. Being an effeminate boy (in lower grades maybe) and identifying as a gay adolescent should not be labled abnormal.

As for discipline, when was the last time you were out on a school playground at recess? Do you see the 3-5 minimum wage lunch aids standing around? Some of them are retirees–do you think they have great vision and hearing? Can they sprint 50 yards to the far end of the blacktop to break up a fight? How are they supposed to “discipline” 100 elementary or jr high school kids when the budgets are so low that the school only pays them to come in for the 2 hours a day that they serve lunch and have recess? The volunteer moms at the high school are not going to jump in to separate a gang of boys mixing it up. In the classroom, teachers are trying to teach and constantly have to play disciplinarian as well. So, yeah, these transgressions should be corrected in school but they often go unseen.

Should parents be teaching their kids that bullying behavior is wrong? Yes. Will the kid who gets a thrill out of bullying get that lesson? No, at least not the first time and maybe not ever. Some people are just born assholes.

The reason kids bully is because 1) they get something out of it 2) someone taught them that picking on someone who is different or weaker than you is ok 3) the population around you (other students) won’t stop you, either because they agree with you or because they are scared of you and 4) there aren’t enough grownups around who either care or have the ability to stop you. (there may be other reasons, but this is my first impression)

One observation made in regard to the college kid (Tyler Clementi) who killed himself at Rutgers after his roommate published a video of him with another man on Youtube: …”we still aren’t noticing bullying until it gets out of hand, until the emotional violence turns into physical violence or, as alleged here, into suicide and indictments.”
The school systems are really coming down hard on bullies but the problem–like any enforcement issue–is resources. Kids will tattle but it takes grownups who actually believe that the bullying is serious enough to stop it. Even within the school parent population, there remain those who think that “playground rules” are a good life lesson, that being different or weird merits you a good beating so you can “get in line” and “be like the rest of us.” And it’s a fine line–sometimes playground rules reinforce good traits–like shoving the kid out of line who cuts in unfairly. So a teacher hears Johnny calling Jane “butch” three times in one day and later sees Jane on the ground crying. Johnny’s deskmate says Johnny pushed her. Ok, send Johnny to the office, Johnny’s parents come in and say, “What? It’s just normal kid behavior?” Bullying?

Lots of kids come into the school system with certain values from home that don’t fit well in a group environment or society at large. Innocuous example: single children who learn pretty quick that they have to wait in line for their turn and to share. Harmful example: that gays are fags and queers and no son of mine is going to be gay or hang out with someone who is and if you ever find one do you should beat the crap out of them. Yes, you know this exists out there and is sometimes supported by whole communities. The lessons not to hurt others should be taught at home but frequently aren’t. And fortunately our schools do a lot of good in this area. Teaching tolerance of any “difference” is the key to changing those practices. Educating kids that the “weird” kid is just another example of the human condition helps this process.

The bright side here is that I find the younger generation is actually waaaay more accepting of differences than the seniors. Conversations with the college-age kids of my friends give me a lot of hope that people are becoming more and more color blind and accepting of all sorts of variations on “normal” that put most retirees’ panties in a bunch. Yay for integration and liberalism! Even that died in the wool tea bagger retracted his views recently and decided that “those people” are ok. (someone chime in on this–it was on an MSNBC program a couple weeks ago, name escapes me)

[Shadowfax]

flu–In a sense I agree with you–live and let live should be the rule in school. But the age of reason in children comes long after they are all thrown in together in schools. Bottom line, it boils down to respecting each other, not being “sensitive” to another’s failings or differences. Nerdiness should be aspired to and obesity should be addressed as a health concern. Being an effeminate boy (in lower grades maybe) and identifying as a gay adolescent should not be labled abnormal.

As for discipline, when was the last time you were out on a school playground at recess? Do you see the 3-5 minimum wage lunch aids standing around? Some of them are retirees–do you think they have great vision and hearing? Can they sprint 50 yards to the far end of the blacktop to break up a fight? How are they supposed to “discipline” 100 elementary or jr high school kids when the budgets are so low that the school only pays them to come in for the 2 hours a day that they serve lunch and have recess? The volunteer moms at the high school are not going to jump in to separate a gang of boys mixing it up. In the classroom, teachers are trying to teach and constantly have to play disciplinarian as well. So, yeah, these transgressions should be corrected in school but they often go unseen.

Should parents be teaching their kids that bullying behavior is wrong? Yes. Will the kid who gets a thrill out of bullying get that lesson? No, at least not the first time and maybe not ever. Some people are just born assholes.

The reason kids bully is because 1) they get something out of it 2) someone taught them that picking on someone who is different or weaker than you is ok 3) the population around you (other students) won’t stop you, either because they agree with you or because they are scared of you and 4) there aren’t enough grownups around who either care or have the ability to stop you. (there may be other reasons, but this is my first impression)

One observation made in regard to the college kid (Tyler Clementi) who killed himself at Rutgers after his roommate published a video of him with another man on Youtube: …”we still aren’t noticing bullying until it gets out of hand, until the emotional violence turns into physical violence or, as alleged here, into suicide and indictments.”
The school systems are really coming down hard on bullies but the problem–like any enforcement issue–is resources. Kids will tattle but it takes grownups who actually believe that the bullying is serious enough to stop it. Even within the school parent population, there remain those who think that “playground rules” are a good life lesson, that being different or weird merits you a good beating so you can “get in line” and “be like the rest of us.” And it’s a fine line–sometimes playground rules reinforce good traits–like shoving the kid out of line who cuts in unfairly. So a teacher hears Johnny calling Jane “butch” three times in one day and later sees Jane on the ground crying. Johnny’s deskmate says Johnny pushed her. Ok, send Johnny to the office, Johnny’s parents come in and say, “What? It’s just normal kid behavior?” Bullying?

Lots of kids come into the school system with certain values from home that don’t fit well in a group environment or society at large. Innocuous example: single children who learn pretty quick that they have to wait in line for their turn and to share. Harmful example: that gays are fags and queers and no son of mine is going to be gay or hang out with someone who is and if you ever find one do you should beat the crap out of them. Yes, you know this exists out there and is sometimes supported by whole communities. The lessons not to hurt others should be taught at home but frequently aren’t. And fortunately our schools do a lot of good in this area. Teaching tolerance of any “difference” is the key to changing those practices. Educating kids that the “weird” kid is just another example of the human condition helps this process.

The bright side here is that I find the younger generation is actually waaaay more accepting of differences than the seniors. Conversations with the college-age kids of my friends give me a lot of hope that people are becoming more and more color blind and accepting of all sorts of variations on “normal” that put most retirees’ panties in a bunch. Yay for integration and liberalism! Even that died in the wool tea bagger retracted his views recently and decided that “those people” are ok. (someone chime in on this–it was on an MSNBC program a couple weeks ago, name escapes me)

[Shadowfax]

JSTOEZ: You can include me in that group–and you are forgetting that annoying little separation of church and state clause in the constitution. Government money should be used to fund religious education. And there is freedom of choice–you can chose to enroll your kids in a madrassa or have them molested by a Catholic pries if you so desire (Sorry, had to throw that dig in there). No one is stopping you. That is the freedom of religion clause. But our government is NOT required to fund your practice of religion, just to allow you to do it.

[Shadowfax]

JSTOEZ: You can include me in that group–and you are forgetting that annoying little separation of church and state clause in the constitution. Government money should be used to fund religious education. And there is freedom of choice–you can chose to enroll your kids in a madrassa or have them molested by a Catholic pries if you so desire (Sorry, had to throw that dig in there). No one is stopping you. That is the freedom of religion clause. But our government is NOT required to fund your practice of religion, just to allow you to do it.

[Shadowfax]

JSTOEZ: You can include me in that group–and you are forgetting that annoying little separation of church and state clause in the constitution. Government money should be used to fund religious education. And there is freedom of choice–you can chose to enroll your kids in a madrassa or have them molested by a Catholic pries if you so desire (Sorry, had to throw that dig in there). No one is stopping you. That is the freedom of religion clause. But our government is NOT required to fund your practice of religion, just to allow you to do it.

[Shadowfax]

JSTOEZ: You can include me in that group–and you are forgetting that annoying little separation of church and state clause in the constitution. Government money should be used to fund religious education. And there is freedom of choice–you can chose to enroll your kids in a madrassa or have them molested by a Catholic pries if you so desire (Sorry, had to throw that dig in there). No one is stopping you. That is the freedom of religion clause. But our government is NOT required to fund your practice of religion, just to allow you to do it.

[Shadowfax]

JSTOEZ: You can include me in that group–and you are forgetting that annoying little separation of church and state clause in the constitution. Government money should be used to fund religious education. And there is freedom of choice–you can chose to enroll your kids in a madrassa or have them molested by a Catholic pries if you so desire (Sorry, had to throw that dig in there). No one is stopping you. That is the freedom of religion clause. But our government is NOT required to fund your practice of religion, just to allow you to do it.

[Anonymous]

I don’t think you understand what jstoez is trying to convey. But first let me correct you – the phrase “separation of church and state” is *not* in the Constitution. Not sure you realize it but here in San Diego, 43.2% of our property taxes is allocated to public schools. For example, a $300K house at 1.1125%, 43.2% of that is $1442 – that’s a decent chunk of change for a lower-tier home. Again, most people do not agree with homosexuality and especially do not want it shoved down the throats of our children. No…we’re not homophobic, intolerant nor hateful. We simply don’t agree. And I definitely do not agree with allocating 43.2% of my money to institutions that promote this as normal. Promoting sexual orientation does not belong in the classroom and the government should not make it a mandate. As mentioned earlier, my kids attend parochial school, which, by the way is NOT funded by the 43.2% I pay. It would be fair for all if that 43.2% was used as a voucher so that folks can send their children to a school of their choice.

[Anonymous]

I don’t think you understand what jstoez is trying to convey. But first let me correct you – the phrase “separation of church and state” is *not* in the Constitution. Not sure you realize it but here in San Diego, 43.2% of our property taxes is allocated to public schools. For example, a $300K house at 1.1125%, 43.2% of that is $1442 – that’s a decent chunk of change for a lower-tier home. Again, most people do not agree with homosexuality and especially do not want it shoved down the throats of our children. No…we’re not homophobic, intolerant nor hateful. We simply don’t agree. And I definitely do not agree with allocating 43.2% of my money to institutions that promote this as normal. Promoting sexual orientation does not belong in the classroom and the government should not make it a mandate. As mentioned earlier, my kids attend parochial school, which, by the way is NOT funded by the 43.2% I pay. It would be fair for all if that 43.2% was used as a voucher so that folks can send their children to a school of their choice.

[Anonymous]

I don’t think you understand what jstoez is trying to convey. But first let me correct you – the phrase “separation of church and state” is *not* in the Constitution. Not sure you realize it but here in San Diego, 43.2% of our property taxes is allocated to public schools. For example, a $300K house at 1.1125%, 43.2% of that is $1442 – that’s a decent chunk of change for a lower-tier home. Again, most people do not agree with homosexuality and especially do not want it shoved down the throats of our children. No…we’re not homophobic, intolerant nor hateful. We simply don’t agree. And I definitely do not agree with allocating 43.2% of my money to institutions that promote this as normal. Promoting sexual orientation does not belong in the classroom and the government should not make it a mandate. As mentioned earlier, my kids attend parochial school, which, by the way is NOT funded by the 43.2% I pay. It would be fair for all if that 43.2% was used as a voucher so that folks can send their children to a school of their choice.

[Anonymous]

I don’t think you understand what jstoez is trying to convey. But first let me correct you – the phrase “separation of church and state” is *not* in the Constitution. Not sure you realize it but here in San Diego, 43.2% of our property taxes is allocated to public schools. For example, a $300K house at 1.1125%, 43.2% of that is $1442 – that’s a decent chunk of change for a lower-tier home. Again, most people do not agree with homosexuality and especially do not want it shoved down the throats of our children. No…we’re not homophobic, intolerant nor hateful. We simply don’t agree. And I definitely do not agree with allocating 43.2% of my money to institutions that promote this as normal. Promoting sexual orientation does not belong in the classroom and the government should not make it a mandate. As mentioned earlier, my kids attend parochial school, which, by the way is NOT funded by the 43.2% I pay. It would be fair for all if that 43.2% was used as a voucher so that folks can send their children to a school of their choice.

[Author]

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