Off Topic: Curious about how others feel about the Georgian/Russian war

[Anonymous]

The Europeans lack not only the military force to oppose Russia’s imperial designs, but they lack the will and cojones also.

Agreed, Europe gets to ride free on the defense gravy train courtesy of the US. I remember how they were supposed to help secure Lebanon, but since the US couldn’t help and Lebanon didn’t want the US to help, Europe didn’t do anything. They all talked a big game until it came time commit. It’s high time for Europe to start defending their own countries.

We were enforcing UNSR 1441, which contained clear and irrevocable language regarding the use of force against Saddam.

I disagree, Iraq was mostly complying with the UN resolutions at the time the war was started. The UN weapons inspectors had access to everything and came up with no evidence of a current WMD program. We didn’t invade to enforce UNSR 1441, we invaded for control over their oil and to put a major US military presence in the ME. I do agree that Afghanistan was justified by nature of being attacked by terrorists supported and harbored by them.

[Anonymous]

The Europeans lack not only the military force to oppose Russia’s imperial designs, but they lack the will and cojones also.

Agreed, Europe gets to ride free on the defense gravy train courtesy of the US. I remember how they were supposed to help secure Lebanon, but since the US couldn’t help and Lebanon didn’t want the US to help, Europe didn’t do anything. They all talked a big game until it came time commit. It’s high time for Europe to start defending their own countries.

We were enforcing UNSR 1441, which contained clear and irrevocable language regarding the use of force against Saddam.

I disagree, Iraq was mostly complying with the UN resolutions at the time the war was started. The UN weapons inspectors had access to everything and came up with no evidence of a current WMD program. We didn’t invade to enforce UNSR 1441, we invaded for control over their oil and to put a major US military presence in the ME. I do agree that Afghanistan was justified by nature of being attacked by terrorists supported and harbored by them.

[Allan from Fallbrook]

JordanT: Okay, I’ll give you that one (UNSR 1441). I wasn’t a huge fan of the Iraq War to begin with, and felt that our energies should have focused on Afghanistan, but, now that we’re there, we need to finish this. I have three friends there, including one in Baghdad proper, and the tide has turned (or at least shifted) in-country and that makes what looks like a losing venture less than two years ago possibly winnable.

While I am not for nation-building (other than our own, of course) or empire building (including our own), I do think having a significant presence in that part of the world matters. I think you can juxtapose Russia and Iran and their respective regional ambitions and then look at what, if anything, is in place to check those ambitions. If the US brings the Iraq War to a successful close (and by that I mean autonomous self-government and possibly one that isn’t purely democratic), then Iran has internal issues with their own populace (who will look to Iraq as a possible alternative) that will preclude them from pursuing an openly self-aggrandizing mission in the area.

In contrast, there is no force or group of committed partners in Europe, and that includes NATO, that will do the same regarding Russia. And Putin’s goals are clearly stated and easily understood: He is aggressively putting Russia back into the empire business.

I concur completely on the Europeans. These countries, Germany, Italy, France, Belgium and Spain, are all rich first-world nations and they can carry their own burden. I remember when I was stationed in Germany (1984), the Germans to the north (close to the Red Army and Warsaw Pact forces) loved Americans because of the proximity of the Russians, East Germans and other ComBloc forces and the Germans in the south (well away from them) treated us an army of occupation. Matter of perspective, I suppose.

[Allan from Fallbrook]

JordanT: Okay, I’ll give you that one (UNSR 1441). I wasn’t a huge fan of the Iraq War to begin with, and felt that our energies should have focused on Afghanistan, but, now that we’re there, we need to finish this. I have three friends there, including one in Baghdad proper, and the tide has turned (or at least shifted) in-country and that makes what looks like a losing venture less than two years ago possibly winnable.

While I am not for nation-building (other than our own, of course) or empire building (including our own), I do think having a significant presence in that part of the world matters. I think you can juxtapose Russia and Iran and their respective regional ambitions and then look at what, if anything, is in place to check those ambitions. If the US brings the Iraq War to a successful close (and by that I mean autonomous self-government and possibly one that isn’t purely democratic), then Iran has internal issues with their own populace (who will look to Iraq as a possible alternative) that will preclude them from pursuing an openly self-aggrandizing mission in the area.

In contrast, there is no force or group of committed partners in Europe, and that includes NATO, that will do the same regarding Russia. And Putin’s goals are clearly stated and easily understood: He is aggressively putting Russia back into the empire business.

I concur completely on the Europeans. These countries, Germany, Italy, France, Belgium and Spain, are all rich first-world nations and they can carry their own burden. I remember when I was stationed in Germany (1984), the Germans to the north (close to the Red Army and Warsaw Pact forces) loved Americans because of the proximity of the Russians, East Germans and other ComBloc forces and the Germans in the south (well away from them) treated us an army of occupation. Matter of perspective, I suppose.

[Allan from Fallbrook]

JordanT: Okay, I’ll give you that one (UNSR 1441). I wasn’t a huge fan of the Iraq War to begin with, and felt that our energies should have focused on Afghanistan, but, now that we’re there, we need to finish this. I have three friends there, including one in Baghdad proper, and the tide has turned (or at least shifted) in-country and that makes what looks like a losing venture less than two years ago possibly winnable.

While I am not for nation-building (other than our own, of course) or empire building (including our own), I do think having a significant presence in that part of the world matters. I think you can juxtapose Russia and Iran and their respective regional ambitions and then look at what, if anything, is in place to check those ambitions. If the US brings the Iraq War to a successful close (and by that I mean autonomous self-government and possibly one that isn’t purely democratic), then Iran has internal issues with their own populace (who will look to Iraq as a possible alternative) that will preclude them from pursuing an openly self-aggrandizing mission in the area.

In contrast, there is no force or group of committed partners in Europe, and that includes NATO, that will do the same regarding Russia. And Putin’s goals are clearly stated and easily understood: He is aggressively putting Russia back into the empire business.

I concur completely on the Europeans. These countries, Germany, Italy, France, Belgium and Spain, are all rich first-world nations and they can carry their own burden. I remember when I was stationed in Germany (1984), the Germans to the north (close to the Red Army and Warsaw Pact forces) loved Americans because of the proximity of the Russians, East Germans and other ComBloc forces and the Germans in the south (well away from them) treated us an army of occupation. Matter of perspective, I suppose.

[Allan from Fallbrook]

JordanT: Okay, I’ll give you that one (UNSR 1441). I wasn’t a huge fan of the Iraq War to begin with, and felt that our energies should have focused on Afghanistan, but, now that we’re there, we need to finish this. I have three friends there, including one in Baghdad proper, and the tide has turned (or at least shifted) in-country and that makes what looks like a losing venture less than two years ago possibly winnable.

While I am not for nation-building (other than our own, of course) or empire building (including our own), I do think having a significant presence in that part of the world matters. I think you can juxtapose Russia and Iran and their respective regional ambitions and then look at what, if anything, is in place to check those ambitions. If the US brings the Iraq War to a successful close (and by that I mean autonomous self-government and possibly one that isn’t purely democratic), then Iran has internal issues with their own populace (who will look to Iraq as a possible alternative) that will preclude them from pursuing an openly self-aggrandizing mission in the area.

In contrast, there is no force or group of committed partners in Europe, and that includes NATO, that will do the same regarding Russia. And Putin’s goals are clearly stated and easily understood: He is aggressively putting Russia back into the empire business.

I concur completely on the Europeans. These countries, Germany, Italy, France, Belgium and Spain, are all rich first-world nations and they can carry their own burden. I remember when I was stationed in Germany (1984), the Germans to the north (close to the Red Army and Warsaw Pact forces) loved Americans because of the proximity of the Russians, East Germans and other ComBloc forces and the Germans in the south (well away from them) treated us an army of occupation. Matter of perspective, I suppose.

[Allan from Fallbrook]

JordanT: Okay, I’ll give you that one (UNSR 1441). I wasn’t a huge fan of the Iraq War to begin with, and felt that our energies should have focused on Afghanistan, but, now that we’re there, we need to finish this. I have three friends there, including one in Baghdad proper, and the tide has turned (or at least shifted) in-country and that makes what looks like a losing venture less than two years ago possibly winnable.

While I am not for nation-building (other than our own, of course) or empire building (including our own), I do think having a significant presence in that part of the world matters. I think you can juxtapose Russia and Iran and their respective regional ambitions and then look at what, if anything, is in place to check those ambitions. If the US brings the Iraq War to a successful close (and by that I mean autonomous self-government and possibly one that isn’t purely democratic), then Iran has internal issues with their own populace (who will look to Iraq as a possible alternative) that will preclude them from pursuing an openly self-aggrandizing mission in the area.

In contrast, there is no force or group of committed partners in Europe, and that includes NATO, that will do the same regarding Russia. And Putin’s goals are clearly stated and easily understood: He is aggressively putting Russia back into the empire business.

I concur completely on the Europeans. These countries, Germany, Italy, France, Belgium and Spain, are all rich first-world nations and they can carry their own burden. I remember when I was stationed in Germany (1984), the Germans to the north (close to the Red Army and Warsaw Pact forces) loved Americans because of the proximity of the Russians, East Germans and other ComBloc forces and the Germans in the south (well away from them) treated us an army of occupation. Matter of perspective, I suppose.

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