Off Topic: Curious about how others feel about the Georgian/Russian war

[Allan from Fallbrook]

JordanT: I wasn’t talking about the US Army. This is, first and foremost, a European problem. Between NATO and CSCE, there are sufficient grounds for action. And, yes, I’m aware that Georgia is not a member of NATO, but Russia’s saber rattling has wider implications for Europe as a whole. You’ll notice the deafening silence emanating from Germany and Italy at present as well.

We’re “bogged down” in Iraq and Afghanistan? Really? According to whom? The combat phase of Iraq is essentially over and the problems in Afghanistan are largely a function of the hand over to NATO and UN forces, most of which don’t like to venture off of their bases and actually engage the Taliban and al-Qaeda.

As to the readiness state of our military, even if we were at a maximum state of readiness, we lack sufficent offensive power to conduct a war of maneuver in Europe, and that is thanks to Dubya’s daddy and Clinton and the massive reductions in force of our first line armored, mechanized and infantry divisions. The best we could do at this point is send in the 82d Airborne and hope Putin doesn’t call our bluff.

[Allan from Fallbrook]

JordanT: I wasn’t talking about the US Army. This is, first and foremost, a European problem. Between NATO and CSCE, there are sufficient grounds for action. And, yes, I’m aware that Georgia is not a member of NATO, but Russia’s saber rattling has wider implications for Europe as a whole. You’ll notice the deafening silence emanating from Germany and Italy at present as well.

We’re “bogged down” in Iraq and Afghanistan? Really? According to whom? The combat phase of Iraq is essentially over and the problems in Afghanistan are largely a function of the hand over to NATO and UN forces, most of which don’t like to venture off of their bases and actually engage the Taliban and al-Qaeda.

As to the readiness state of our military, even if we were at a maximum state of readiness, we lack sufficent offensive power to conduct a war of maneuver in Europe, and that is thanks to Dubya’s daddy and Clinton and the massive reductions in force of our first line armored, mechanized and infantry divisions. The best we could do at this point is send in the 82d Airborne and hope Putin doesn’t call our bluff.

[Anonymous]

The combat phase of Iraq is essentially over

Then why do we still have 150,000+ troops sitting there, if it’s essentially over? The problem is that the majority of our available boots are policing Iraq instead of being an Army. Where do you propose we get the men required, short of a draft? I agree this is a European problem, but their military is dependent on the US being there. Their defeaning silence is the result of them not being able to do anything about it. They could threaten Russia, but again they would be empty threats.

[Anonymous]

The combat phase of Iraq is essentially over

Then why do we still have 150,000+ troops sitting there, if it’s essentially over? The problem is that the majority of our available boots are policing Iraq instead of being an Army. Where do you propose we get the men required, short of a draft? I agree this is a European problem, but their military is dependent on the US being there. Their defeaning silence is the result of them not being able to do anything about it. They could threaten Russia, but again they would be empty threats.

[Anonymous]

The combat phase of Iraq is essentially over

Then why do we still have 150,000+ troops sitting there, if it’s essentially over? The problem is that the majority of our available boots are policing Iraq instead of being an Army. Where do you propose we get the men required, short of a draft? I agree this is a European problem, but their military is dependent on the US being there. Their defeaning silence is the result of them not being able to do anything about it. They could threaten Russia, but again they would be empty threats.

[Anonymous]

The combat phase of Iraq is essentially over

Then why do we still have 150,000+ troops sitting there, if it’s essentially over? The problem is that the majority of our available boots are policing Iraq instead of being an Army. Where do you propose we get the men required, short of a draft? I agree this is a European problem, but their military is dependent on the US being there. Their defeaning silence is the result of them not being able to do anything about it. They could threaten Russia, but again they would be empty threats.

[Anonymous]

The combat phase of Iraq is essentially over

Then why do we still have 150,000+ troops sitting there, if it’s essentially over? The problem is that the majority of our available boots are policing Iraq instead of being an Army. Where do you propose we get the men required, short of a draft? I agree this is a European problem, but their military is dependent on the US being there. Their defeaning silence is the result of them not being able to do anything about it. They could threaten Russia, but again they would be empty threats.

[Allan from Fallbrook]

JordanT: Again, I’m not proposing anything, relative to an American intervention. Bush definitely diddled the dog on this one, and largely because he gave Georgia the impression that we would back them and then whiffed when Putin called his bluff and invaded.

That being said, the Russians are clearly exploiting a situation here, as evidenced by their using South Ossetia and Abkhazia as stalking horses for a larger expansionist policy. The fact that Russia was handing out Russian passports to members of both nationalities right up until a few weeks before the invasion, as well as the fact that Russia has been arming the more extemist elements of both speaks to some level of premeditation on Putin’s part.

And for those of you conflating Russia’s invasion of a sovereign nation (Georgia) that was dealing with two breakaways within it’s internationally recognized borders with our invasion of Iraq: Get real. We were enforcing UNSR 1441, which contained clear and irrevocable language regarding the use of force against Saddam. As to Afghanistan, we were invoking the right of self defense and the intel and subsequent events there justify that action beyond any shadow of a doubt.

Saying that we lack the “moral authority” to question Russia is a convenient cop out, and one the Europeans are using at present, hence my mention of the deafening silence of Germany and Italy.

The Europeans lack not only the military force to oppose Russia’s imperial designs, but they lack the will and cojones also. Putin knows how far to push this, and he has a two powerful weapons at his disposal: Russian control of a large chunk of the European energy market and European cowardice in the face of a determined foe.

We don’t have to go back to 1938 for an example; Spain’s collapse in the wake of the railroad bombings is very illustrative of the current timidity displayed by the Europeans and NATO and the UN as well. Russia’s bullying over Zimbabwe shows, in a clear cut example of supporting a murdering despotic ruler, how quickly we’ve returned to the bad old days of the Cold War.

Yeah, Russia is loaded with Moral Authority. That’s probably what they named the invasion of Georgia.

[Allan from Fallbrook]

JordanT: Again, I’m not proposing anything, relative to an American intervention. Bush definitely diddled the dog on this one, and largely because he gave Georgia the impression that we would back them and then whiffed when Putin called his bluff and invaded.

That being said, the Russians are clearly exploiting a situation here, as evidenced by their using South Ossetia and Abkhazia as stalking horses for a larger expansionist policy. The fact that Russia was handing out Russian passports to members of both nationalities right up until a few weeks before the invasion, as well as the fact that Russia has been arming the more extemist elements of both speaks to some level of premeditation on Putin’s part.

And for those of you conflating Russia’s invasion of a sovereign nation (Georgia) that was dealing with two breakaways within it’s internationally recognized borders with our invasion of Iraq: Get real. We were enforcing UNSR 1441, which contained clear and irrevocable language regarding the use of force against Saddam. As to Afghanistan, we were invoking the right of self defense and the intel and subsequent events there justify that action beyond any shadow of a doubt.

Saying that we lack the “moral authority” to question Russia is a convenient cop out, and one the Europeans are using at present, hence my mention of the deafening silence of Germany and Italy.

The Europeans lack not only the military force to oppose Russia’s imperial designs, but they lack the will and cojones also. Putin knows how far to push this, and he has a two powerful weapons at his disposal: Russian control of a large chunk of the European energy market and European cowardice in the face of a determined foe.

We don’t have to go back to 1938 for an example; Spain’s collapse in the wake of the railroad bombings is very illustrative of the current timidity displayed by the Europeans and NATO and the UN as well. Russia’s bullying over Zimbabwe shows, in a clear cut example of supporting a murdering despotic ruler, how quickly we’ve returned to the bad old days of the Cold War.

Yeah, Russia is loaded with Moral Authority. That’s probably what they named the invasion of Georgia.

[Allan from Fallbrook]

JordanT: Again, I’m not proposing anything, relative to an American intervention. Bush definitely diddled the dog on this one, and largely because he gave Georgia the impression that we would back them and then whiffed when Putin called his bluff and invaded.

That being said, the Russians are clearly exploiting a situation here, as evidenced by their using South Ossetia and Abkhazia as stalking horses for a larger expansionist policy. The fact that Russia was handing out Russian passports to members of both nationalities right up until a few weeks before the invasion, as well as the fact that Russia has been arming the more extemist elements of both speaks to some level of premeditation on Putin’s part.

And for those of you conflating Russia’s invasion of a sovereign nation (Georgia) that was dealing with two breakaways within it’s internationally recognized borders with our invasion of Iraq: Get real. We were enforcing UNSR 1441, which contained clear and irrevocable language regarding the use of force against Saddam. As to Afghanistan, we were invoking the right of self defense and the intel and subsequent events there justify that action beyond any shadow of a doubt.

Saying that we lack the “moral authority” to question Russia is a convenient cop out, and one the Europeans are using at present, hence my mention of the deafening silence of Germany and Italy.

The Europeans lack not only the military force to oppose Russia’s imperial designs, but they lack the will and cojones also. Putin knows how far to push this, and he has a two powerful weapons at his disposal: Russian control of a large chunk of the European energy market and European cowardice in the face of a determined foe.

We don’t have to go back to 1938 for an example; Spain’s collapse in the wake of the railroad bombings is very illustrative of the current timidity displayed by the Europeans and NATO and the UN as well. Russia’s bullying over Zimbabwe shows, in a clear cut example of supporting a murdering despotic ruler, how quickly we’ve returned to the bad old days of the Cold War.

Yeah, Russia is loaded with Moral Authority. That’s probably what they named the invasion of Georgia.

[Allan from Fallbrook]

JordanT: Again, I’m not proposing anything, relative to an American intervention. Bush definitely diddled the dog on this one, and largely because he gave Georgia the impression that we would back them and then whiffed when Putin called his bluff and invaded.

That being said, the Russians are clearly exploiting a situation here, as evidenced by their using South Ossetia and Abkhazia as stalking horses for a larger expansionist policy. The fact that Russia was handing out Russian passports to members of both nationalities right up until a few weeks before the invasion, as well as the fact that Russia has been arming the more extemist elements of both speaks to some level of premeditation on Putin’s part.

And for those of you conflating Russia’s invasion of a sovereign nation (Georgia) that was dealing with two breakaways within it’s internationally recognized borders with our invasion of Iraq: Get real. We were enforcing UNSR 1441, which contained clear and irrevocable language regarding the use of force against Saddam. As to Afghanistan, we were invoking the right of self defense and the intel and subsequent events there justify that action beyond any shadow of a doubt.

Saying that we lack the “moral authority” to question Russia is a convenient cop out, and one the Europeans are using at present, hence my mention of the deafening silence of Germany and Italy.

The Europeans lack not only the military force to oppose Russia’s imperial designs, but they lack the will and cojones also. Putin knows how far to push this, and he has a two powerful weapons at his disposal: Russian control of a large chunk of the European energy market and European cowardice in the face of a determined foe.

We don’t have to go back to 1938 for an example; Spain’s collapse in the wake of the railroad bombings is very illustrative of the current timidity displayed by the Europeans and NATO and the UN as well. Russia’s bullying over Zimbabwe shows, in a clear cut example of supporting a murdering despotic ruler, how quickly we’ve returned to the bad old days of the Cold War.

Yeah, Russia is loaded with Moral Authority. That’s probably what they named the invasion of Georgia.

[Allan from Fallbrook]

JordanT: Again, I’m not proposing anything, relative to an American intervention. Bush definitely diddled the dog on this one, and largely because he gave Georgia the impression that we would back them and then whiffed when Putin called his bluff and invaded.

That being said, the Russians are clearly exploiting a situation here, as evidenced by their using South Ossetia and Abkhazia as stalking horses for a larger expansionist policy. The fact that Russia was handing out Russian passports to members of both nationalities right up until a few weeks before the invasion, as well as the fact that Russia has been arming the more extemist elements of both speaks to some level of premeditation on Putin’s part.

And for those of you conflating Russia’s invasion of a sovereign nation (Georgia) that was dealing with two breakaways within it’s internationally recognized borders with our invasion of Iraq: Get real. We were enforcing UNSR 1441, which contained clear and irrevocable language regarding the use of force against Saddam. As to Afghanistan, we were invoking the right of self defense and the intel and subsequent events there justify that action beyond any shadow of a doubt.

Saying that we lack the “moral authority” to question Russia is a convenient cop out, and one the Europeans are using at present, hence my mention of the deafening silence of Germany and Italy.

The Europeans lack not only the military force to oppose Russia’s imperial designs, but they lack the will and cojones also. Putin knows how far to push this, and he has a two powerful weapons at his disposal: Russian control of a large chunk of the European energy market and European cowardice in the face of a determined foe.

We don’t have to go back to 1938 for an example; Spain’s collapse in the wake of the railroad bombings is very illustrative of the current timidity displayed by the Europeans and NATO and the UN as well. Russia’s bullying over Zimbabwe shows, in a clear cut example of supporting a murdering despotic ruler, how quickly we’ve returned to the bad old days of the Cold War.

Yeah, Russia is loaded with Moral Authority. That’s probably what they named the invasion of Georgia.

[Anonymous]

The Europeans lack not only the military force to oppose Russia’s imperial designs, but they lack the will and cojones also.

Agreed, Europe gets to ride free on the defense gravy train courtesy of the US. I remember how they were supposed to help secure Lebanon, but since the US couldn’t help and Lebanon didn’t want the US to help, Europe didn’t do anything. They all talked a big game until it came time commit. It’s high time for Europe to start defending their own countries.

We were enforcing UNSR 1441, which contained clear and irrevocable language regarding the use of force against Saddam.

I disagree, Iraq was mostly complying with the UN resolutions at the time the war was started. The UN weapons inspectors had access to everything and came up with no evidence of a current WMD program. We didn’t invade to enforce UNSR 1441, we invaded for control over their oil and to put a major US military presence in the ME. I do agree that Afghanistan was justified by nature of being attacked by terrorists supported and harbored by them.

[Anonymous]

The Europeans lack not only the military force to oppose Russia’s imperial designs, but they lack the will and cojones also.

Agreed, Europe gets to ride free on the defense gravy train courtesy of the US. I remember how they were supposed to help secure Lebanon, but since the US couldn’t help and Lebanon didn’t want the US to help, Europe didn’t do anything. They all talked a big game until it came time commit. It’s high time for Europe to start defending their own countries.

We were enforcing UNSR 1441, which contained clear and irrevocable language regarding the use of force against Saddam.

I disagree, Iraq was mostly complying with the UN resolutions at the time the war was started. The UN weapons inspectors had access to everything and came up with no evidence of a current WMD program. We didn’t invade to enforce UNSR 1441, we invaded for control over their oil and to put a major US military presence in the ME. I do agree that Afghanistan was justified by nature of being attacked by terrorists supported and harbored by them.

[Anonymous]

The Europeans lack not only the military force to oppose Russia’s imperial designs, but they lack the will and cojones also.

Agreed, Europe gets to ride free on the defense gravy train courtesy of the US. I remember how they were supposed to help secure Lebanon, but since the US couldn’t help and Lebanon didn’t want the US to help, Europe didn’t do anything. They all talked a big game until it came time commit. It’s high time for Europe to start defending their own countries.

We were enforcing UNSR 1441, which contained clear and irrevocable language regarding the use of force against Saddam.

I disagree, Iraq was mostly complying with the UN resolutions at the time the war was started. The UN weapons inspectors had access to everything and came up with no evidence of a current WMD program. We didn’t invade to enforce UNSR 1441, we invaded for control over their oil and to put a major US military presence in the ME. I do agree that Afghanistan was justified by nature of being attacked by terrorists supported and harbored by them.

[Author]

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