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January 20, 2010 at 10:14 AM #504654January 20, 2010 at 10:43 AM #503787
SK in CV
ParticipantI’ll just respond to this one little thing.
[quote=ucodegen]When logic fails, resort to name calling (ie racist screed). If you really knew me, you would know that this comment is so far off that it is laughable.
[/quote]There was no name calling. I think you have adopted a racist screed. That doesn’t make you a racist.
The argument that undocumented aliens are a huge drain on the system has long been debunked. In some counties and states their contributions are less than associated costs. In others they are more. Nationwide, there are no conclusive studies, though in more recent years the contribution of the undocumented has risen with better enforcement of employment laws. The “under the table” payments, as described in the original post have dropped dramatically in the last 10 years. They’re not gone, but they’re nowhere near where they were. As previously mentioned by at least one other poster, payment of social security and medicare taxes by those who will never receive any benefits is a huge gain for the system. It extends the solvency of both programs.
On education, if I understand you to be saying that you believe that children of citizens are more worthy of an education than those of non-citizens, solely based upon where their parents were born, I am simply dumbfounded by your sense of superiority, arrogance and entitlement. Hopefully I misunderstand you.
January 20, 2010 at 10:43 AM #503932ParticipantI’ll just respond to this one little thing.
[quote=ucodegen]When logic fails, resort to name calling (ie racist screed). If you really knew me, you would know that this comment is so far off that it is laughable.
[/quote]There was no name calling. I think you have adopted a racist screed. That doesn’t make you a racist.
The argument that undocumented aliens are a huge drain on the system has long been debunked. In some counties and states their contributions are less than associated costs. In others they are more. Nationwide, there are no conclusive studies, though in more recent years the contribution of the undocumented has risen with better enforcement of employment laws. The “under the table” payments, as described in the original post have dropped dramatically in the last 10 years. They’re not gone, but they’re nowhere near where they were. As previously mentioned by at least one other poster, payment of social security and medicare taxes by those who will never receive any benefits is a huge gain for the system. It extends the solvency of both programs.
On education, if I understand you to be saying that you believe that children of citizens are more worthy of an education than those of non-citizens, solely based upon where their parents were born, I am simply dumbfounded by your sense of superiority, arrogance and entitlement. Hopefully I misunderstand you.
January 20, 2010 at 10:43 AM #504329ParticipantI’ll just respond to this one little thing.
[quote=ucodegen]When logic fails, resort to name calling (ie racist screed). If you really knew me, you would know that this comment is so far off that it is laughable.
[/quote]There was no name calling. I think you have adopted a racist screed. That doesn’t make you a racist.
The argument that undocumented aliens are a huge drain on the system has long been debunked. In some counties and states their contributions are less than associated costs. In others they are more. Nationwide, there are no conclusive studies, though in more recent years the contribution of the undocumented has risen with better enforcement of employment laws. The “under the table” payments, as described in the original post have dropped dramatically in the last 10 years. They’re not gone, but they’re nowhere near where they were. As previously mentioned by at least one other poster, payment of social security and medicare taxes by those who will never receive any benefits is a huge gain for the system. It extends the solvency of both programs.
On education, if I understand you to be saying that you believe that children of citizens are more worthy of an education than those of non-citizens, solely based upon where their parents were born, I am simply dumbfounded by your sense of superiority, arrogance and entitlement. Hopefully I misunderstand you.
January 20, 2010 at 10:43 AM #504420ParticipantI’ll just respond to this one little thing.
[quote=ucodegen]When logic fails, resort to name calling (ie racist screed). If you really knew me, you would know that this comment is so far off that it is laughable.
[/quote]There was no name calling. I think you have adopted a racist screed. That doesn’t make you a racist.
The argument that undocumented aliens are a huge drain on the system has long been debunked. In some counties and states their contributions are less than associated costs. In others they are more. Nationwide, there are no conclusive studies, though in more recent years the contribution of the undocumented has risen with better enforcement of employment laws. The “under the table” payments, as described in the original post have dropped dramatically in the last 10 years. They’re not gone, but they’re nowhere near where they were. As previously mentioned by at least one other poster, payment of social security and medicare taxes by those who will never receive any benefits is a huge gain for the system. It extends the solvency of both programs.
On education, if I understand you to be saying that you believe that children of citizens are more worthy of an education than those of non-citizens, solely based upon where their parents were born, I am simply dumbfounded by your sense of superiority, arrogance and entitlement. Hopefully I misunderstand you.
January 20, 2010 at 10:43 AM #504669ParticipantI’ll just respond to this one little thing.
[quote=ucodegen]When logic fails, resort to name calling (ie racist screed). If you really knew me, you would know that this comment is so far off that it is laughable.
[/quote]There was no name calling. I think you have adopted a racist screed. That doesn’t make you a racist.
The argument that undocumented aliens are a huge drain on the system has long been debunked. In some counties and states their contributions are less than associated costs. In others they are more. Nationwide, there are no conclusive studies, though in more recent years the contribution of the undocumented has risen with better enforcement of employment laws. The “under the table” payments, as described in the original post have dropped dramatically in the last 10 years. They’re not gone, but they’re nowhere near where they were. As previously mentioned by at least one other poster, payment of social security and medicare taxes by those who will never receive any benefits is a huge gain for the system. It extends the solvency of both programs.
On education, if I understand you to be saying that you believe that children of citizens are more worthy of an education than those of non-citizens, solely based upon where their parents were born, I am simply dumbfounded by your sense of superiority, arrogance and entitlement. Hopefully I misunderstand you.
January 20, 2010 at 11:24 PM #504122ucodegen
Participant, I am simply dumbfounded by your sense of superiority, arrogance and entitlement. Hopefully I misunderstand you.
Ah, another personal attack. Lets try dealing with the facts instead of using emotionally charged words and phrases in an attempt to tilt the discussion.. followed by a ‘naw, you couldn’t be that bad a person, I must be misunderstanding you’ type of phrase.
In your previous post, what was the point of even bringing up ‘racists screed’? Emotionally charged words, yes.. and it attempts to shut down discussion by trying to associate my position with that of a racist (something commonly viewed untenable). Thereby in that mechanism, it is also ‘name calling’ through association.
The argument that undocumented aliens are a huge drain on the system has long been debunked. In some counties and states their contributions are less than associated costs. In others they are more.
No it hasn’t been debunked. The supposed ‘debunk’ was through a straw man argument. The taxes that the illegal would owe on income would flow back to the state through sales taxes. What exposes the straw man is that the U.S. operates as an income tax not a VAT tax system. If it were VAT, we would see sales taxes of 15% and higher. The attempted ‘debunkers’ closed off the argument to the effect that the drop in agricultural costs and resulting drop in food prices more than offsets any cost to the U.S. and that most people in the U.S. don’t want those type of jobs anyway. This attempted diversion ignores the simple fact that introduction of the illegals to the labor pool depresses the lower wage range at a cost to the lower and lower middle classes and that some people actually would take that job.
As previously mentioned by at least one other poster, payment of social security and medicare taxes by those who will never receive any benefits is a huge gain for the system.
Red Herring. Answer me this: How can they pay into the system without a Social Security Number (legal citizen) or Taxpayer ID Number(green card). There is not mechanism for the social security system to accept such money without either associated IDs.. which an illegal does not have. There is also no mechanism to collect income taxes without either Social Security ID or Taxpayer ID.
On education, if I understand you to be saying that you believe that children of citizens are more worthy of an education than those of non-citizens,
Yes.
solely based upon where their parents were born,
No. Remember, many citizens are legal immigrants. Heck, unless you are American Indian, we all are immigrants or descended from immigrants. Lets make it easier for you. Lets change Joe to Juan in the above example. Juan Legal (from Mexico) took the legal path to citizenship; including the tests, waiting period, not being a felon etc. Jose is still Jose Illegal. Would it be right to force Juan to sacrifice some of the quality in his kids education to help improve the education quality of Jose Illegal’s kids? even considering that Jose could have taken the legal path to citizenship like Juan Legal?
January 20, 2010 at 11:24 PM #504268Participant, I am simply dumbfounded by your sense of superiority, arrogance and entitlement. Hopefully I misunderstand you.
Ah, another personal attack. Lets try dealing with the facts instead of using emotionally charged words and phrases in an attempt to tilt the discussion.. followed by a ‘naw, you couldn’t be that bad a person, I must be misunderstanding you’ type of phrase.
In your previous post, what was the point of even bringing up ‘racists screed’? Emotionally charged words, yes.. and it attempts to shut down discussion by trying to associate my position with that of a racist (something commonly viewed untenable). Thereby in that mechanism, it is also ‘name calling’ through association.
The argument that undocumented aliens are a huge drain on the system has long been debunked. In some counties and states their contributions are less than associated costs. In others they are more.
No it hasn’t been debunked. The supposed ‘debunk’ was through a straw man argument. The taxes that the illegal would owe on income would flow back to the state through sales taxes. What exposes the straw man is that the U.S. operates as an income tax not a VAT tax system. If it were VAT, we would see sales taxes of 15% and higher. The attempted ‘debunkers’ closed off the argument to the effect that the drop in agricultural costs and resulting drop in food prices more than offsets any cost to the U.S. and that most people in the U.S. don’t want those type of jobs anyway. This attempted diversion ignores the simple fact that introduction of the illegals to the labor pool depresses the lower wage range at a cost to the lower and lower middle classes and that some people actually would take that job.
As previously mentioned by at least one other poster, payment of social security and medicare taxes by those who will never receive any benefits is a huge gain for the system.
Red Herring. Answer me this: How can they pay into the system without a Social Security Number (legal citizen) or Taxpayer ID Number(green card). There is not mechanism for the social security system to accept such money without either associated IDs.. which an illegal does not have. There is also no mechanism to collect income taxes without either Social Security ID or Taxpayer ID.
On education, if I understand you to be saying that you believe that children of citizens are more worthy of an education than those of non-citizens,
Yes.
solely based upon where their parents were born,
No. Remember, many citizens are legal immigrants. Heck, unless you are American Indian, we all are immigrants or descended from immigrants. Lets make it easier for you. Lets change Joe to Juan in the above example. Juan Legal (from Mexico) took the legal path to citizenship; including the tests, waiting period, not being a felon etc. Jose is still Jose Illegal. Would it be right to force Juan to sacrifice some of the quality in his kids education to help improve the education quality of Jose Illegal’s kids? even considering that Jose could have taken the legal path to citizenship like Juan Legal?
January 20, 2010 at 11:24 PM #504666Participant, I am simply dumbfounded by your sense of superiority, arrogance and entitlement. Hopefully I misunderstand you.
Ah, another personal attack. Lets try dealing with the facts instead of using emotionally charged words and phrases in an attempt to tilt the discussion.. followed by a ‘naw, you couldn’t be that bad a person, I must be misunderstanding you’ type of phrase.
In your previous post, what was the point of even bringing up ‘racists screed’? Emotionally charged words, yes.. and it attempts to shut down discussion by trying to associate my position with that of a racist (something commonly viewed untenable). Thereby in that mechanism, it is also ‘name calling’ through association.
The argument that undocumented aliens are a huge drain on the system has long been debunked. In some counties and states their contributions are less than associated costs. In others they are more.
No it hasn’t been debunked. The supposed ‘debunk’ was through a straw man argument. The taxes that the illegal would owe on income would flow back to the state through sales taxes. What exposes the straw man is that the U.S. operates as an income tax not a VAT tax system. If it were VAT, we would see sales taxes of 15% and higher. The attempted ‘debunkers’ closed off the argument to the effect that the drop in agricultural costs and resulting drop in food prices more than offsets any cost to the U.S. and that most people in the U.S. don’t want those type of jobs anyway. This attempted diversion ignores the simple fact that introduction of the illegals to the labor pool depresses the lower wage range at a cost to the lower and lower middle classes and that some people actually would take that job.
As previously mentioned by at least one other poster, payment of social security and medicare taxes by those who will never receive any benefits is a huge gain for the system.
Red Herring. Answer me this: How can they pay into the system without a Social Security Number (legal citizen) or Taxpayer ID Number(green card). There is not mechanism for the social security system to accept such money without either associated IDs.. which an illegal does not have. There is also no mechanism to collect income taxes without either Social Security ID or Taxpayer ID.
On education, if I understand you to be saying that you believe that children of citizens are more worthy of an education than those of non-citizens,
Yes.
solely based upon where their parents were born,
No. Remember, many citizens are legal immigrants. Heck, unless you are American Indian, we all are immigrants or descended from immigrants. Lets make it easier for you. Lets change Joe to Juan in the above example. Juan Legal (from Mexico) took the legal path to citizenship; including the tests, waiting period, not being a felon etc. Jose is still Jose Illegal. Would it be right to force Juan to sacrifice some of the quality in his kids education to help improve the education quality of Jose Illegal’s kids? even considering that Jose could have taken the legal path to citizenship like Juan Legal?
January 20, 2010 at 11:24 PM #504758Participant, I am simply dumbfounded by your sense of superiority, arrogance and entitlement. Hopefully I misunderstand you.
Ah, another personal attack. Lets try dealing with the facts instead of using emotionally charged words and phrases in an attempt to tilt the discussion.. followed by a ‘naw, you couldn’t be that bad a person, I must be misunderstanding you’ type of phrase.
In your previous post, what was the point of even bringing up ‘racists screed’? Emotionally charged words, yes.. and it attempts to shut down discussion by trying to associate my position with that of a racist (something commonly viewed untenable). Thereby in that mechanism, it is also ‘name calling’ through association.
The argument that undocumented aliens are a huge drain on the system has long been debunked. In some counties and states their contributions are less than associated costs. In others they are more.
No it hasn’t been debunked. The supposed ‘debunk’ was through a straw man argument. The taxes that the illegal would owe on income would flow back to the state through sales taxes. What exposes the straw man is that the U.S. operates as an income tax not a VAT tax system. If it were VAT, we would see sales taxes of 15% and higher. The attempted ‘debunkers’ closed off the argument to the effect that the drop in agricultural costs and resulting drop in food prices more than offsets any cost to the U.S. and that most people in the U.S. don’t want those type of jobs anyway. This attempted diversion ignores the simple fact that introduction of the illegals to the labor pool depresses the lower wage range at a cost to the lower and lower middle classes and that some people actually would take that job.
As previously mentioned by at least one other poster, payment of social security and medicare taxes by those who will never receive any benefits is a huge gain for the system.
Red Herring. Answer me this: How can they pay into the system without a Social Security Number (legal citizen) or Taxpayer ID Number(green card). There is not mechanism for the social security system to accept such money without either associated IDs.. which an illegal does not have. There is also no mechanism to collect income taxes without either Social Security ID or Taxpayer ID.
On education, if I understand you to be saying that you believe that children of citizens are more worthy of an education than those of non-citizens,
Yes.
solely based upon where their parents were born,
No. Remember, many citizens are legal immigrants. Heck, unless you are American Indian, we all are immigrants or descended from immigrants. Lets make it easier for you. Lets change Joe to Juan in the above example. Juan Legal (from Mexico) took the legal path to citizenship; including the tests, waiting period, not being a felon etc. Jose is still Jose Illegal. Would it be right to force Juan to sacrifice some of the quality in his kids education to help improve the education quality of Jose Illegal’s kids? even considering that Jose could have taken the legal path to citizenship like Juan Legal?
January 20, 2010 at 11:24 PM #505010Participant, I am simply dumbfounded by your sense of superiority, arrogance and entitlement. Hopefully I misunderstand you.
Ah, another personal attack. Lets try dealing with the facts instead of using emotionally charged words and phrases in an attempt to tilt the discussion.. followed by a ‘naw, you couldn’t be that bad a person, I must be misunderstanding you’ type of phrase.
In your previous post, what was the point of even bringing up ‘racists screed’? Emotionally charged words, yes.. and it attempts to shut down discussion by trying to associate my position with that of a racist (something commonly viewed untenable). Thereby in that mechanism, it is also ‘name calling’ through association.
The argument that undocumented aliens are a huge drain on the system has long been debunked. In some counties and states their contributions are less than associated costs. In others they are more.
No it hasn’t been debunked. The supposed ‘debunk’ was through a straw man argument. The taxes that the illegal would owe on income would flow back to the state through sales taxes. What exposes the straw man is that the U.S. operates as an income tax not a VAT tax system. If it were VAT, we would see sales taxes of 15% and higher. The attempted ‘debunkers’ closed off the argument to the effect that the drop in agricultural costs and resulting drop in food prices more than offsets any cost to the U.S. and that most people in the U.S. don’t want those type of jobs anyway. This attempted diversion ignores the simple fact that introduction of the illegals to the labor pool depresses the lower wage range at a cost to the lower and lower middle classes and that some people actually would take that job.
As previously mentioned by at least one other poster, payment of social security and medicare taxes by those who will never receive any benefits is a huge gain for the system.
Red Herring. Answer me this: How can they pay into the system without a Social Security Number (legal citizen) or Taxpayer ID Number(green card). There is not mechanism for the social security system to accept such money without either associated IDs.. which an illegal does not have. There is also no mechanism to collect income taxes without either Social Security ID or Taxpayer ID.
On education, if I understand you to be saying that you believe that children of citizens are more worthy of an education than those of non-citizens,
Yes.
solely based upon where their parents were born,
No. Remember, many citizens are legal immigrants. Heck, unless you are American Indian, we all are immigrants or descended from immigrants. Lets make it easier for you. Lets change Joe to Juan in the above example. Juan Legal (from Mexico) took the legal path to citizenship; including the tests, waiting period, not being a felon etc. Jose is still Jose Illegal. Would it be right to force Juan to sacrifice some of the quality in his kids education to help improve the education quality of Jose Illegal’s kids? even considering that Jose could have taken the legal path to citizenship like Juan Legal?
January 21, 2010 at 1:22 AM #504126moneymaker
Participant“If you think about real estate. A house can be just as well built with legal or illegal construction workers. The house itself does not care.”
This reminds me of a few years ago when I was in El Cajon there was a young kid,hispanic who spoke spanish who was using a nail gun during “construction” of one of those apt-to-condo things. Well he was mindlessly nailing the plywood with the gun, just trying to get it stuck back together, it was hilarious and sad at the same time. I wonder how many pipes or wires he must have hit?
January 21, 2010 at 1:22 AM #504273Participant“If you think about real estate. A house can be just as well built with legal or illegal construction workers. The house itself does not care.”
This reminds me of a few years ago when I was in El Cajon there was a young kid,hispanic who spoke spanish who was using a nail gun during “construction” of one of those apt-to-condo things. Well he was mindlessly nailing the plywood with the gun, just trying to get it stuck back together, it was hilarious and sad at the same time. I wonder how many pipes or wires he must have hit?
January 21, 2010 at 1:22 AM #504671Participant“If you think about real estate. A house can be just as well built with legal or illegal construction workers. The house itself does not care.”
This reminds me of a few years ago when I was in El Cajon there was a young kid,hispanic who spoke spanish who was using a nail gun during “construction” of one of those apt-to-condo things. Well he was mindlessly nailing the plywood with the gun, just trying to get it stuck back together, it was hilarious and sad at the same time. I wonder how many pipes or wires he must have hit?
January 21, 2010 at 1:22 AM #504763Participant“If you think about real estate. A house can be just as well built with legal or illegal construction workers. The house itself does not care.”
This reminds me of a few years ago when I was in El Cajon there was a young kid,hispanic who spoke spanish who was using a nail gun during “construction” of one of those apt-to-condo things. Well he was mindlessly nailing the plywood with the gun, just trying to get it stuck back together, it was hilarious and sad at the same time. I wonder how many pipes or wires he must have hit?
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