GM seeks up to $30B in aid, to cut 47,000 jobs

[macromaniac]

Scarlet, take a chill pill. If you want to defend the UAW and a business model that makes no sense at all then feel free….you may not want to do it in this camp though….check out this graph when you get a minute….

http://jobimplode.com/?p=169

[Rt.66]

[quote=afx114]As with any product, people should purchase vehicles based quality rather than the label that is affixed to the grill.[/quote]

Is life really that black and white?

What if you throw in a few variables such as:

1) Unless the quality difference is of such a minor extent that supporting domestic jobs and one’s country takes precedence?

2) The multiplier negative affect of my gaining a tiny advantage, negates my tiny advantage gained?

[Rt.66]

[quote=afx114]As with any product, people should purchase vehicles based quality rather than the label that is affixed to the grill.[/quote]

Is life really that black and white?

What if you throw in a few variables such as:

1) Unless the quality difference is of such a minor extent that supporting domestic jobs and one’s country takes precedence?

2) The multiplier negative affect of my gaining a tiny advantage, negates my tiny advantage gained?

[Rt.66]

[quote=afx114]As with any product, people should purchase vehicles based quality rather than the label that is affixed to the grill.[/quote]

Is life really that black and white?

What if you throw in a few variables such as:

1) Unless the quality difference is of such a minor extent that supporting domestic jobs and one’s country takes precedence?

2) The multiplier negative affect of my gaining a tiny advantage, negates my tiny advantage gained?

[Rt.66]

[quote=afx114]As with any product, people should purchase vehicles based quality rather than the label that is affixed to the grill.[/quote]

Is life really that black and white?

What if you throw in a few variables such as:

1) Unless the quality difference is of such a minor extent that supporting domestic jobs and one’s country takes precedence?

2) The multiplier negative affect of my gaining a tiny advantage, negates my tiny advantage gained?

[Rt.66]

[quote=afx114]As with any product, people should purchase vehicles based quality rather than the label that is affixed to the grill.[/quote]

Is life really that black and white?

What if you throw in a few variables such as:

1) Unless the quality difference is of such a minor extent that supporting domestic jobs and one’s country takes precedence?

2) The multiplier negative affect of my gaining a tiny advantage, negates my tiny advantage gained?

[Rt.66]

[quote=macromaniac]Scarlet, take a chill pill. If you want to defend the UAW and a business model that makes no sense at all then feel free….you may not want to do it in this camp though….check out this graph when you get a minute….

http://jobimplode.com/?p=169
[/quote]

Thanks for the advice. I knew I was gonna take a beating but I never shy away from this arguement. In no area can I think of is the average American more selfish and ignorant.

Your graph link is a perfect example. Do you know why it looks so crazy? Do you actually believe its because the UAW worker brings home big fat pay checks?

I have a feeling you don’t. You know its because of healthcare. That chart shows wages and benefits combined. GM has 100 years of people they promised pensions and benfits too. The tens of thousands of Americans GM supports (so tax payers don’t have too((yet)) is lumped into the poor UAW workers pay by the MSM and you get the absurd $70 an hour number they toss out.

I’m getting tired and I know I’ll never get through to any of you but at least why don’t you go look at our healthcare system versus Japan’s and how it affects that number in your graph. Maybe you be enlightened.

[Rt.66]

[quote=macromaniac]Scarlet, take a chill pill. If you want to defend the UAW and a business model that makes no sense at all then feel free….you may not want to do it in this camp though….check out this graph when you get a minute….

http://jobimplode.com/?p=169
[/quote]

Thanks for the advice. I knew I was gonna take a beating but I never shy away from this arguement. In no area can I think of is the average American more selfish and ignorant.

Your graph link is a perfect example. Do you know why it looks so crazy? Do you actually believe its because the UAW worker brings home big fat pay checks?

I have a feeling you don’t. You know its because of healthcare. That chart shows wages and benefits combined. GM has 100 years of people they promised pensions and benfits too. The tens of thousands of Americans GM supports (so tax payers don’t have too((yet)) is lumped into the poor UAW workers pay by the MSM and you get the absurd $70 an hour number they toss out.

I’m getting tired and I know I’ll never get through to any of you but at least why don’t you go look at our healthcare system versus Japan’s and how it affects that number in your graph. Maybe you be enlightened.

[Rt.66]

[quote=macromaniac]Scarlet, take a chill pill. If you want to defend the UAW and a business model that makes no sense at all then feel free….you may not want to do it in this camp though….check out this graph when you get a minute….

http://jobimplode.com/?p=169
[/quote]

Thanks for the advice. I knew I was gonna take a beating but I never shy away from this arguement. In no area can I think of is the average American more selfish and ignorant.

Your graph link is a perfect example. Do you know why it looks so crazy? Do you actually believe its because the UAW worker brings home big fat pay checks?

I have a feeling you don’t. You know its because of healthcare. That chart shows wages and benefits combined. GM has 100 years of people they promised pensions and benfits too. The tens of thousands of Americans GM supports (so tax payers don’t have too((yet)) is lumped into the poor UAW workers pay by the MSM and you get the absurd $70 an hour number they toss out.

I’m getting tired and I know I’ll never get through to any of you but at least why don’t you go look at our healthcare system versus Japan’s and how it affects that number in your graph. Maybe you be enlightened.

[Rt.66]

[quote=macromaniac]Scarlet, take a chill pill. If you want to defend the UAW and a business model that makes no sense at all then feel free….you may not want to do it in this camp though….check out this graph when you get a minute….

http://jobimplode.com/?p=169
[/quote]

Thanks for the advice. I knew I was gonna take a beating but I never shy away from this arguement. In no area can I think of is the average American more selfish and ignorant.

Your graph link is a perfect example. Do you know why it looks so crazy? Do you actually believe its because the UAW worker brings home big fat pay checks?

I have a feeling you don’t. You know its because of healthcare. That chart shows wages and benefits combined. GM has 100 years of people they promised pensions and benfits too. The tens of thousands of Americans GM supports (so tax payers don’t have too((yet)) is lumped into the poor UAW workers pay by the MSM and you get the absurd $70 an hour number they toss out.

I’m getting tired and I know I’ll never get through to any of you but at least why don’t you go look at our healthcare system versus Japan’s and how it affects that number in your graph. Maybe you be enlightened.

[Rt.66]

[quote=macromaniac]Scarlet, take a chill pill. If you want to defend the UAW and a business model that makes no sense at all then feel free….you may not want to do it in this camp though….check out this graph when you get a minute….

http://jobimplode.com/?p=169
[/quote]

Thanks for the advice. I knew I was gonna take a beating but I never shy away from this arguement. In no area can I think of is the average American more selfish and ignorant.

Your graph link is a perfect example. Do you know why it looks so crazy? Do you actually believe its because the UAW worker brings home big fat pay checks?

I have a feeling you don’t. You know its because of healthcare. That chart shows wages and benefits combined. GM has 100 years of people they promised pensions and benfits too. The tens of thousands of Americans GM supports (so tax payers don’t have too((yet)) is lumped into the poor UAW workers pay by the MSM and you get the absurd $70 an hour number they toss out.

I’m getting tired and I know I’ll never get through to any of you but at least why don’t you go look at our healthcare system versus Japan’s and how it affects that number in your graph. Maybe you be enlightened.

[fromnj]

it is a very interesting fact indeed….

http://bigthreeauto.procon.org/viewadditionalresource.asp?resourceID=2050#commentary

“Labor cost per hour, wages and benefits for hourly workers, 2006.

Ford: $70.51 ($141,020 per year)

GM: $73.26 ($146,520 per year)

Chrysler: $75.86 ($151,720 per year)

Toyota, Honda, Nissan (in U.S.): $48.00 ($96,000 per year)

According to AAUP [American Association of University Professors] and IES [Institute of Education Sciences], the average annual compensation for a college professor in 2006 was $92,973 (average salary nationally of $73,207 + 27% benefits).

Bottom Line: The average UAW worker with a high school degree earns 57.6% more compensation than the average university professor with a Ph.D. (see graph above, click to enlarge), and 52.6% more than the average worker at Toyota, Honda or Nissan.”

July 11, 2007 – Mark J. Perry, MBA, PhD

David Leonhardt, “Economic Scene” Columnist for the New York Times, in a New York Times Dec. 9, 2008 article titled “$73 an Hour: Adding It Up,” wrote:

“The calculations show, accurately enough, that for every hour a unionized worker puts in, one of the Big Three really does spend about $73 on compensation. So the number isn’t made up. But it is the combination of three very different categories.

The first category is simply cash payments, which is what many people imagine when they hear the word ‘compensation.’ It includes wages, overtime and vacation pay, and comes to about $40 an hour. (The numbers vary a bit by company and year. That’s why $73 is sometimes $70 or $77.)

The second category is fringe benefits, like health insurance and pensions. These benefits have real value, even if they don’t show up on a weekly paycheck. At the Big Three, the benefits amount to $15 an hour or so.

Add the two together, and you get the true hourly compensation of Detroit’s unionized work force: roughly $55 an hour. It’s a little more than twice as much as the typical American worker makes, benefits included. The more relevant comparison, though, is probably to Honda;s or Toyota’s (nonunionized) workers. They make in the neighborhood of $45 an hour, and most of the gap stems from their less generous benefits.

The third category is the cost of benefits for retirees. These are essentially fixed costs that have no relation to how many vehicles the companies make. But they are a real cost, so the companies add them into the mix — dividing those costs by the total hours of the current work force, to get a figure of $15 or so — and end up at roughly $70 an hour.”

[fromnj]

it is a very interesting fact indeed….

http://bigthreeauto.procon.org/viewadditionalresource.asp?resourceID=2050#commentary

“Labor cost per hour, wages and benefits for hourly workers, 2006.

Ford: $70.51 ($141,020 per year)

GM: $73.26 ($146,520 per year)

Chrysler: $75.86 ($151,720 per year)

Toyota, Honda, Nissan (in U.S.): $48.00 ($96,000 per year)

According to AAUP [American Association of University Professors] and IES [Institute of Education Sciences], the average annual compensation for a college professor in 2006 was $92,973 (average salary nationally of $73,207 + 27% benefits).

Bottom Line: The average UAW worker with a high school degree earns 57.6% more compensation than the average university professor with a Ph.D. (see graph above, click to enlarge), and 52.6% more than the average worker at Toyota, Honda or Nissan.”

July 11, 2007 – Mark J. Perry, MBA, PhD

David Leonhardt, “Economic Scene” Columnist for the New York Times, in a New York Times Dec. 9, 2008 article titled “$73 an Hour: Adding It Up,” wrote:

“The calculations show, accurately enough, that for every hour a unionized worker puts in, one of the Big Three really does spend about $73 on compensation. So the number isn’t made up. But it is the combination of three very different categories.

The first category is simply cash payments, which is what many people imagine when they hear the word ‘compensation.’ It includes wages, overtime and vacation pay, and comes to about $40 an hour. (The numbers vary a bit by company and year. That’s why $73 is sometimes $70 or $77.)

The second category is fringe benefits, like health insurance and pensions. These benefits have real value, even if they don’t show up on a weekly paycheck. At the Big Three, the benefits amount to $15 an hour or so.

Add the two together, and you get the true hourly compensation of Detroit’s unionized work force: roughly $55 an hour. It’s a little more than twice as much as the typical American worker makes, benefits included. The more relevant comparison, though, is probably to Honda;s or Toyota’s (nonunionized) workers. They make in the neighborhood of $45 an hour, and most of the gap stems from their less generous benefits.

The third category is the cost of benefits for retirees. These are essentially fixed costs that have no relation to how many vehicles the companies make. But they are a real cost, so the companies add them into the mix — dividing those costs by the total hours of the current work force, to get a figure of $15 or so — and end up at roughly $70 an hour.”

[fromnj]

it is a very interesting fact indeed….

http://bigthreeauto.procon.org/viewadditionalresource.asp?resourceID=2050#commentary

“Labor cost per hour, wages and benefits for hourly workers, 2006.

Ford: $70.51 ($141,020 per year)

GM: $73.26 ($146,520 per year)

Chrysler: $75.86 ($151,720 per year)

Toyota, Honda, Nissan (in U.S.): $48.00 ($96,000 per year)

According to AAUP [American Association of University Professors] and IES [Institute of Education Sciences], the average annual compensation for a college professor in 2006 was $92,973 (average salary nationally of $73,207 + 27% benefits).

Bottom Line: The average UAW worker with a high school degree earns 57.6% more compensation than the average university professor with a Ph.D. (see graph above, click to enlarge), and 52.6% more than the average worker at Toyota, Honda or Nissan.”

July 11, 2007 – Mark J. Perry, MBA, PhD

David Leonhardt, “Economic Scene” Columnist for the New York Times, in a New York Times Dec. 9, 2008 article titled “$73 an Hour: Adding It Up,” wrote:

“The calculations show, accurately enough, that for every hour a unionized worker puts in, one of the Big Three really does spend about $73 on compensation. So the number isn’t made up. But it is the combination of three very different categories.

The first category is simply cash payments, which is what many people imagine when they hear the word ‘compensation.’ It includes wages, overtime and vacation pay, and comes to about $40 an hour. (The numbers vary a bit by company and year. That’s why $73 is sometimes $70 or $77.)

The second category is fringe benefits, like health insurance and pensions. These benefits have real value, even if they don’t show up on a weekly paycheck. At the Big Three, the benefits amount to $15 an hour or so.

Add the two together, and you get the true hourly compensation of Detroit’s unionized work force: roughly $55 an hour. It’s a little more than twice as much as the typical American worker makes, benefits included. The more relevant comparison, though, is probably to Honda;s or Toyota’s (nonunionized) workers. They make in the neighborhood of $45 an hour, and most of the gap stems from their less generous benefits.

The third category is the cost of benefits for retirees. These are essentially fixed costs that have no relation to how many vehicles the companies make. But they are a real cost, so the companies add them into the mix — dividing those costs by the total hours of the current work force, to get a figure of $15 or so — and end up at roughly $70 an hour.”

[fromnj]

it is a very interesting fact indeed….

http://bigthreeauto.procon.org/viewadditionalresource.asp?resourceID=2050#commentary

“Labor cost per hour, wages and benefits for hourly workers, 2006.

Ford: $70.51 ($141,020 per year)

GM: $73.26 ($146,520 per year)

Chrysler: $75.86 ($151,720 per year)

Toyota, Honda, Nissan (in U.S.): $48.00 ($96,000 per year)

According to AAUP [American Association of University Professors] and IES [Institute of Education Sciences], the average annual compensation for a college professor in 2006 was $92,973 (average salary nationally of $73,207 + 27% benefits).

Bottom Line: The average UAW worker with a high school degree earns 57.6% more compensation than the average university professor with a Ph.D. (see graph above, click to enlarge), and 52.6% more than the average worker at Toyota, Honda or Nissan.”

July 11, 2007 – Mark J. Perry, MBA, PhD

David Leonhardt, “Economic Scene” Columnist for the New York Times, in a New York Times Dec. 9, 2008 article titled “$73 an Hour: Adding It Up,” wrote:

“The calculations show, accurately enough, that for every hour a unionized worker puts in, one of the Big Three really does spend about $73 on compensation. So the number isn’t made up. But it is the combination of three very different categories.

The first category is simply cash payments, which is what many people imagine when they hear the word ‘compensation.’ It includes wages, overtime and vacation pay, and comes to about $40 an hour. (The numbers vary a bit by company and year. That’s why $73 is sometimes $70 or $77.)

The second category is fringe benefits, like health insurance and pensions. These benefits have real value, even if they don’t show up on a weekly paycheck. At the Big Three, the benefits amount to $15 an hour or so.

Add the two together, and you get the true hourly compensation of Detroit’s unionized work force: roughly $55 an hour. It’s a little more than twice as much as the typical American worker makes, benefits included. The more relevant comparison, though, is probably to Honda;s or Toyota’s (nonunionized) workers. They make in the neighborhood of $45 an hour, and most of the gap stems from their less generous benefits.

The third category is the cost of benefits for retirees. These are essentially fixed costs that have no relation to how many vehicles the companies make. But they are a real cost, so the companies add them into the mix — dividing those costs by the total hours of the current work force, to get a figure of $15 or so — and end up at roughly $70 an hour.”

[Author]

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