Where did all the friendships go?

[barnaby33]

Wow, JES, I can actually imagine you salivating as you typed that. You took a thread that was mostly about finding/losing friends and really warped it. True JG helped, but man thats a real stretch.

Your message is full of the same religion based paranoia that seems to permeate conservative discourse. Why does it matter whether people goto church? Why does it matter if Muslims become a majority in England in 75 years? How are either of those things relevant to our search for friendships?

ctlmdjb: I challenge you to read the book The Case for Christ and the follow-on book The Case for Faith by Lee Strobel, a Yale trained lawyer who used to be an atheist. This nothing, if not an attack. We know by now that there are people here who are religious and people who aren’t. I think this thread would be alot better served by addressing how those two groups can bridge their gaps and become friends.

Big Kiss! (Oh I live in Hillcrest so watch out)

Josh

[JES]

Without a certain amount of universal morality there would be chaos and brutality would go unchecked. For example, should we just stand by and allow the following activities to continue in order to respect what others consider moral: Female genital mutilation in Africa, polygamy and abuse by the Warren Jeffs of the world and ethnic cleansing in the Balkans and Africa? Isn’t there a certain amount of universal morality at work when we take action against those who committed abuse at Abu Garib, and when we (and the world) hold our government accountable for the way we treat detainees in Cuba and at secret prisons around the world? We all know that there are groups, like Al Queda, who argue that 9/11 was morally just. Are we supposed to just sit back and respect their morality?

To be my own devils advocate, I do understand that we can only take this so far. I wouldn’t agree that all childless people, and even many divorcees, are immoral, but some certainly are. When it comes to marriage and divorce, there has to be a certain amount of universal morailty that we attach to it don’t you agree? To flat out deny any use of universal morailty is to deny the very fabric that holds this country together. I’m sure you are not advocating that, but then where exactly do we draw the line?

[VCJIM]

What does this have to do with frienships? Maintaining, resurrecting, creating them?

[JES]

Barnaby – I plead guilty to joining with JG in taking this thread off on a tangent, but you should give credit where credit is due. CTLMDJB initiated this by slighting American Christians and talking politics. Follow-on posters also felt compelled to continue the discussion.

I’m with you though and feel pretty compelled to end it now:) If you agree to read that book, that is. I will send you a free copy if you’d like. Just kidding. Actually, I must admit that these books did provide me with the hard facts and analysis that I often found lacking in religious based study. EG: What archeological evidence exists for Christianity, what proof is there that the major players even existed etc. There is actually a chance that an agnostic or atheist reading them will become more convinced of their own beliefs, but at least they will have gained some knowledge that they likely wont find elsewhere. A few years ago I did a whole bunch of research into allowing gays into the military and ended up changing my own views on the matter and now think it is perfectly fine.

Not assuming anything from your remark about living in Hillcrest:) But since you gave me a kiss and told me to watch out…well, I wanted to share a happy story with you to offset all the serious talk!

[rocketman]

I believe going to a church, Buddhist temple, synagogue or where ever you meet people who are practicing the same things you believe is a wonderful place to be. I just came back from a Men’s retreat this weekend and had a fabulous time meeting other men. I made a few new acquaintances that I am sure will turn into friendships. There is nothing like going to a Christian church service or Zen practice session and knowing people there when you walk in.

I am sorry to hear of your divorce and cancer MyDog. By the Grace of God it sounds like you’ve been able to heal one problem and now starting to heal the other.

As a Christian who practices Zen, you are in the right place.

Oh, and by the way, if you want to meet a nice, loyal and beautiful woman, try getting involved with a non-denominational Christian church. I belong to a “Willow Creek Association Church” and absolutely love it. You will be surprised at how much the format has changed. Find one near you Willow Creek.

[Anonymous]

Hi all, I’m new to this blog and would like to thank everyone for your thought provoking insights and discussions about RE, economics, and yes- even religion. Have been gleening a lot from the blog for the last 5 months so I decided today to add my thoughts and just hope it will be well recieved. So here goes.

I think religion and friendship have a lot to do with each other. We are by nature religious beings whether we believe in God or just in our own abilities- we believe in something. That’s why it is worth talking about how religion “interferes” with friendships.

In case your wondering I grew up buddhist, but through a series of events and personal decisions I have come to embrace Christ as my Lord and Savior and am thus what you would call a Christian. From that perspective here are some of my thoughts on friendship and religion.

Believe it or not, I am a Christian who would love to have more atheist friends. Some of the challenges I observed from people both Christian/non-Christian is a misunderstanding of what it means to be “intolerant.” As a Christian I am very intolerant of some of the values accepted by our society (i.e. premarital sex), but this does not mean I look down on my friends who are “living together.” As a Christian I cannot in good conscience tell them that it is all good when they ask me what I think. Atheist see it as a Christian being judgemental, self-righteous, and hateful (and indeed some “Christians” are hateful). The irony is that the Christian is being loving. How can I tell my friend that it is OK when I know in my deepest being that there is something better? I love and care for my friend, but cannot and will not accept the lifestyle as something good. Christians also need to be reminded that we are still sinners saved by grace continually. Christ did not save us to judge others but to share the good news and let non-Christians work it out with God. To you non-believers- Christ commands us to love and respect you no what your beliefs are (I apologize if it hasn’t come across that way), but please also understand that love and respect does not entail being tolerant and embracing every belief you hold on to. I try to explain this to my non-Christian friends and I think it helps our freindship.

Couple of closing point:

Morality is an Absolute, if it weren’t we would’nt need laws.

“Case for faith/Christ” is a great book- Strobel is very fair

JS I feel with you about the Testicular Cancer- they took out my nut for TC 5 years back too. “Almond Joy got nuts- Mounds don’t”

-AC

[Anonymous]

Prof. Piggington, you have a fine tagline for your website. Let’s start enforcing it!

“In God We Trust…”

I take this to mean that WE, the website participants, trust (and therefore, believe) in God. If you don’t — Mr. Chase! — maybe you shouldn’t participate!

Just joking about not participating, PC.

[barnaby33]

Sure, “In Dog We Trust. Everyone Else Bring Atad.” Am I dyslexic, atheist, or both?

Josh

[trex]

Participants in this list spend alot of time here. Just out of curiosity, how many list members have ever gotten together for a beer or a coffee? We have communities, they are just alot different than traditional social organizations.

[Chrispy]

We do have quarterly meet-ups. The next one is Nov 18 and I hope you make it, Trex and others!

[Anonymous]

Look, I grew up athesist, from a long line of non-religious people and am a 6th generation Californian. I don’t like Christianity, and frankly it doesn’t like me so I guess we are even. I’m sure the world can find new things to fight about rather than replay the 11th century all over again. If christians can talk about the violence on the “Islamofascists” as inherent in its religion, perhaps they need to understand the history of Christianity and find a better “religion”– there have been no Buddhist jihads or Crusades. This is my opionion, take it for what its worth.

But what I get frustrated with is the lack of understanding from the Christians that I meet that you can be moral without religion, and that true tolerance requires suspending judgement (what ever happened to only God judging?) I am a devoted, stay at home mom (right now) with two girls I am raising with MY values. My oldest is ranked number one in her jr HS academically, asb officer, color guard and knowledge bowl captain. I would love her to grow up to be a leader, an artist, perhaps intern at the ACLU, working in inner city schools, helping others, loving fearlessly without boundaries and distrustful of conformity and the authorities who demand it, and I am leading by example.

We rent in a nice neighborhood with good schools, but I don’t socialize with the PTA crowd, because I feel I don’t fit in, probably because I am a lesbian (not that that is obvious at all by looking at me, we don’t wear our identity on our sleeves.) I could be your next door neighbor. Truly no one is more demonized by the religous far-right than gay parents, so understand that I might take this all a bit personally.

If you are liberal, they have a chapter of “Drinking Liberally” in San Diego. You can get on a mailing list and they will send you updates. Haven’t gone yet personally, but plan to do so. I also am on a number of liberal blogs, my favorite being firedoglake. The comments section offers a lot of social support for the blue drowning in the sea of red.
http://www.drinkingliberally.org/
http://firedoglake.com/

PS I would LOVE to hear some brit rave stories, just to see how they compare with my socal ones. 🙂

[speedingpullet]

Hear, hear kristinejm!

i’ve nothing against religion per se, but I do get annoyed by the attitude that you simply can’t have ‘decent’ values unless you belive in Jesus, Mohammed, Moses, (insert patriarchal, pre-industrial revoloutionary leader of choice).

Actually, to a man (and they’re all men too, funny that…., all the above (and others) said pretty much the same things:
be nice to each other, treat other people with respect and try and be as happy as you can without impinging on others happiness in the process.
What’s not to like?
Its a universal message to humanity to ‘play nice’. You don’t need a bunch of people to ‘interpret’ that for you, its common sense.

But, unfortunately, humans always have put a spin on it – what started out as a simple message of love and understanding gets twisted into dogma and restrictions over the ages, by whomever is in power, and to thier taste.

Its like watching a snowball go downhill – it starts out as a small ball of pure Sprituality and ends up as a big glommy mess at the bottom of the hill, full of pointy twigs and gravel that have absoloutely nothing to do with the initial snowball.
I love and adhere to the Original Snowball, but have no use for the juniper branches and pinecones in the resulting mess. They’re extraneous detritus.

How on earth do you get from ‘play nice’ to non-sequituers like – “only men can be priests”, or “its an abomination for two people of the same sex to love and marry each other”, or “don’t eat meat on fridays”, or “pork is unclean” to name a few.
Thats not Sprituality, that’s social engineering, and most of anachronistic too.

It may have made sense not to eat pork or shellfish when you were part of a nomadic desert people, several hundered years before refridgeration, but, really, will god love me less if I tuck in to a tenderloin roast every once in while?
Why does having female genetalia preclude me from tapping into my spiritualty and helping others to do so as well – if, as everyone keeps telling me, I’m created ‘in god’s image’?
Does god really care if kids are brought up in a loving, caring, same-sex family rather than an opposite-sex one? I think…not

God doesn’t give a flying whoop-tee-doo. All god wants is for people to ‘play nice’, in the best way that they can.

Every time I hear people using the words ‘moral’, ‘decent’, ‘standards’ etc.. my first reaction is ‘Ok, but whose moralty, standards and decency are we talking about here?’
No one has the high ground when it comes to these things, and if someone claims they do, then I often find myself quelling the desire to shout, in a Tourettes-like way, the all-encompassing adage of Bender:

“you can all bite my shiny metal ass!”

🙂

[PerryChase]

One thing that you have to remember about a God such as Jesus, is that he won’t save you unless you believe and pray to him. That’s just how God is.

Buddhism is not a religion but more of a philosophy. Anyone and attain different degrees of enlightenment by developing his or her inner spirituality.

[lamoneyguy]

That’s what I don’t get. I always hear about selflessness from Christianity. It’s considered a good thing right?

So, why does Jesus require you to pray to him for salvation. Sounds like ego to me.

~<http://www.itsjustmoney.blogs.com">lamoneyguy

[Anonymous]

“I love and adhere to the Original Snowball”

Original snowball. Love it!

[Author]

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