Republicans for Impeaching President Bush

[JJGittes]

I’d love to import millions of hard working immigrants and offer them citzenship. But of course since US citizenship is a valuable thing, I would want to scrutinize who they are, where they come from, what skills they have, and confirm that they have a sponsor that will take care of them if necessary so they are not a drain on our public services.

However, making wholesale citizens out of people whose first act was to violate the laws of another (our) country, and who demand benefits and the passage of laws meant to fix their self-imposed quandry, does not appeal to me. They should also certainly not go to the head of the line, period. For the life of me I cannot imagine the audacity it takes to demand things from another country and its citizens, especially one you broke into. When I travel abroad, I meticulously follow the laws of the countries I visit. I would never ‘demand’ anything from them, much less assert right for my particular “raza” while waving the flag of my homeland.

Morever, under the current tax code which provides for the earned income tax credit, many many of these new “citizens” will immediately become tax takers, not tax payers. And this is before one considers the schooling costs for the children they are allowed to bring, the medical costs and SSI and SSDI payments for the parents they are allowed to bring (and who NEVER contributed anyting to the US economy and never will), and the costs to our society as it tries to assimilate tens of millions of people from the third world who speak a foreign language and are far from signed on to free maket capitalism. It is impossible to aregue that one or two adults making minimum wage are worth the associated costs for schooling, helthcare and the like for their family at large.

If you think there is no downside to this Kennedy/Bush plan, take a look at the LA unified schoold district. It used to be a shining star for the entire country. Now, even with more per pupil spending than EVER, its more like a black hole than a shining star. Imagine another 5, or 10 or 20 million people flooding in wholesale, demanding rights, and unfettered access to the benefits of a social contract that they can’t even read. THIS deal would make it better?

No, our government has demonstrated twice, in 1965 and 1986, both time with Mr. Kennedy at the helm, that its plans cannot be trusted. It should enforce existing laws and when the flow by all accounts has been effectively stopped for a period of years, then we can reexamine the problem.

[JJGittes]

I’d love to import millions of hard working immigrants and offer them citzenship. But of course since US citizenship is a valuable thing, I would want to scrutinize who they are, where they come from, what skills they have, and confirm that they have a sponsor that will take care of them if necessary so they are not a drain on our public services.

However, making wholesale citizens out of people whose first act was to violate the laws of another (our) country, and who demand benefits and the passage of laws meant to fix their self-imposed quandry, does not appeal to me. They should also certainly not go to the head of the line, period. For the life of me I cannot imagine the audacity it takes to demand things from another country and its citizens, especially one you broke into. When I travel abroad, I meticulously follow the laws of the countries I visit. I would never ‘demand’ anything from them, much less assert right for my particular “raza” while waving the flag of my homeland.

Morever, under the current tax code which provides for the earned income tax credit, many many of these new “citizens” will immediately become tax takers, not tax payers. And this is before one considers the schooling costs for the children they are allowed to bring, the medical costs and SSI and SSDI payments for the parents they are allowed to bring (and who NEVER contributed anyting to the US economy and never will), and the costs to our society as it tries to assimilate tens of millions of people from the third world who speak a foreign language and are far from signed on to free maket capitalism. It is impossible to aregue that one or two adults making minimum wage are worth the associated costs for schooling, helthcare and the like for their family at large.

If you think there is no downside to this Kennedy/Bush plan, take a look at the LA unified schoold district. It used to be a shining star for the entire country. Now, even with more per pupil spending than EVER, its more like a black hole than a shining star. Imagine another 5, or 10 or 20 million people flooding in wholesale, demanding rights, and unfettered access to the benefits of a social contract that they can’t even read. THIS deal would make it better?

No, our government has demonstrated twice, in 1965 and 1986, both time with Mr. Kennedy at the helm, that its plans cannot be trusted. It should enforce existing laws and when the flow by all accounts has been effectively stopped for a period of years, then we can reexamine the problem.

[rankandfile]

FLU-
You are all over the map here. Nobody has said that there aren’t hard-working illegals here…they are just going about it the unlawful way. We can’t call them law-abiding because they broke the law to cut in line and live here- a slap in the face to all those that are still standing in line to do it the lawful way. You also need to consider that a boatload of the money that they make is NOT spent here in the US, but rather sent/wired south of the border. Who are the real beneficiaries? The businesses and the illegals (and their families in Mexico).

Most illegals don’t pay taxes; yet they get free education, schooling, health care, and other services from us legal taxpayers. I pay over $6000 per year for health care alone…and the service is crap because the system is over-stressed from all the illegal freeloaders. Ever have a medical emergency lately? Prepare to sit and wait a few hours in the emergency room and pay through the nose when your done. Just feel proud knowing that a good portion of your $4300 dollar emergency room bill is helping to pay for all the baby deliveries of illegals – who get it free of charge, of course.

[rankandfile]

FLU-
You are all over the map here. Nobody has said that there aren’t hard-working illegals here…they are just going about it the unlawful way. We can’t call them law-abiding because they broke the law to cut in line and live here- a slap in the face to all those that are still standing in line to do it the lawful way. You also need to consider that a boatload of the money that they make is NOT spent here in the US, but rather sent/wired south of the border. Who are the real beneficiaries? The businesses and the illegals (and their families in Mexico).

Most illegals don’t pay taxes; yet they get free education, schooling, health care, and other services from us legal taxpayers. I pay over $6000 per year for health care alone…and the service is crap because the system is over-stressed from all the illegal freeloaders. Ever have a medical emergency lately? Prepare to sit and wait a few hours in the emergency room and pay through the nose when your done. Just feel proud knowing that a good portion of your $4300 dollar emergency room bill is helping to pay for all the baby deliveries of illegals – who get it free of charge, of course.

[NotCranky]

Please keep this topic up. My wife shares my interest in this topic and it might make her more sypathetic towards me getting fatter and lazier in front of the computer!

[NotCranky]

Please keep this topic up. My wife shares my interest in this topic and it might make her more sypathetic towards me getting fatter and lazier in front of the computer!

[blahblahblah]

All good points about the estate tax, FLU — unfortunately they’re not borne out by the facts. Just as your maximum 401K contributions are adjusted every few years for inflation by Congress, so are the minimums for the estate tax (you can see the details on that IRS page I posted a link to earlier). They will likely increase in the future as our dollars devalue — our congressmen definitely listen to those people affected by it. As for how many people are affected by it, it’s 2% of the population (see the article about Gates, Sr for that number). Again, if you’re one of those 2%, it’s kind of a drag but let’s face it your kids need to get out there and work to improve this country, not sit on a big pile of daddy’s dough. I guess seeing all of those worthless rich families in Europe and South America that haven’t done anything of value in 1000 years has sensitized me to this topic! I really don’t want that to happen here, even if it means my kids might have to buck up and work a little harder, just like their daddy did.

Oh, and of course there’s a very easy way to keep that extra cash from going to Uncle Sam — just give it away to the charity of your choice. The threat of the estate tax has been invaluable in preserving our institutions of higher learning, in advancing our medical research, etc… FWIW, I would never let the government take my estate either, I’d donate it for diabetes or MS research before I’d let that happen.

[blahblahblah]

All good points about the estate tax, FLU — unfortunately they’re not borne out by the facts. Just as your maximum 401K contributions are adjusted every few years for inflation by Congress, so are the minimums for the estate tax (you can see the details on that IRS page I posted a link to earlier). They will likely increase in the future as our dollars devalue — our congressmen definitely listen to those people affected by it. As for how many people are affected by it, it’s 2% of the population (see the article about Gates, Sr for that number). Again, if you’re one of those 2%, it’s kind of a drag but let’s face it your kids need to get out there and work to improve this country, not sit on a big pile of daddy’s dough. I guess seeing all of those worthless rich families in Europe and South America that haven’t done anything of value in 1000 years has sensitized me to this topic! I really don’t want that to happen here, even if it means my kids might have to buck up and work a little harder, just like their daddy did.

Oh, and of course there’s a very easy way to keep that extra cash from going to Uncle Sam — just give it away to the charity of your choice. The threat of the estate tax has been invaluable in preserving our institutions of higher learning, in advancing our medical research, etc… FWIW, I would never let the government take my estate either, I’d donate it for diabetes or MS research before I’d let that happen.

[speedingpullet]

Meh, your great-great-grandparents were bitchin about the Irish, your great-grandparents about the Polish, your grandparents about the Jews and your parents about the 1960’s…..to every generation, a new immigrant ‘problem’.

I know its a serious issue, but I really do find it ironic that in a country – where 99% of the population come from somewhere else – there’s so much outrage that people from other countries have the temerity to try and do what your ancestors did.

Oh, the Horror!!

Don’t try and tell me that all your ancestors came here ‘by-the-book’, because its not true. I know mine came here every which-way, thier only excuse being that they did it long enough ago to be considered ‘legit’ now.
Unless you’re pureblood Native American then at some point in the last 400 years, one of your ancestors spoke a language other than English and/or was born in another country.

And, as an interesting aside – the ‘baying for blood’ volume is in direct correlation to the state of the economy – when I first moved back here 7 years ago, no one had anything to say about immigration.

Now, I can’t turn on the TV without someone frothing at the mouth about ‘illegal aliens’- but now things have gone to hell in a handbasket over here, and someone is to blame. Typical ‘kick the dog’ mentality.

And as for the tired old ‘they’re using our health/school/welfare system!!’ – maybe you should be directing some of that ire towards the huge enormous scam that is the Insurance companies/Big pharma….why does it cost so much more for healthcare in the US than it does, say, in the UK? The UK is hardly 3rd World, yet it does a much better job for about the same tax money, per capita.

On a more practical note and ignoring the Moral Panic a moment… how much will it cost to deport 12 million people? Detention centers, more ICE enployees, etc… is it less or more expensive than bringing in a sensible immigration policy and enforcing the laws that already exist?

As the wife of an ‘immigrant’ I have to say that US polices are very, very broken – despite my husband being head-hunted to come and work here- and the majority of the paperwork being dealt with by his company, it still took 6 years (and 2 overnight ‘campouts’ in front of the Los Angeles INS building, plus two overseas trips to exit/enter the US for visa requirements ) from his intiital application to him getting his Green Card.

God only knows how long it takes, how expensive and frustrating it would be to try and do it on your own, espcecially if you’re in low paying unskilled work.

Don’t get me wrong – I’m not saying we should do nothing, but it really chaps my hide to hear the amount of jingoistic and xenophobic $rap that’s been flying around recently – losing every single ‘illegal alien’ tomorrow will not make America any better than it is today. The illegal ‘problem’ is a symptom, not the underlying illness.

Enforce the laws that exist – fine employers who use illgal labour, bring in ID cards linked to the INS system.
Allow only spouses and children of people working here long-term (2 or more years) entry and issue short-term (6 months out of 1 year) guest worker visas for people ( without thier families) to the many thousands who come here to work seasonally.
Make it easier to work here legaly, and far fewer people will come (with thier extended families) through the underground. Far fewer will overstay thier welcome if they know that it won’t be a years long, life-and-death struggle to re-enter the next time.

BTW – don’t know if anyone watches Penn & Teller’s ‘Bull$%it!” on Showtime.
A couple of weeks back, on their ‘Immigration’ programme they hired some illegal aliens to build a section of wall similar to the border fences going up.
After building it, the construction workers were asked to try and get past it- fastest time – about 5 minutes with the help of some tin snips…

The border fence is at best only a psychological barrier. At worst, an insane amount of money for about 5 minutes of stoppage time for someone crossing the border ilegally.

And – the Foreman who recruited the workers (at a local hardware store) was also a Foreman on the section of fence built near San Diego. According him, his construction company was fined over 50 times for using illegal construction workers to build the Border Fence…. 😉

[speedingpullet]

Meh, your great-great-grandparents were bitchin about the Irish, your great-grandparents about the Polish, your grandparents about the Jews and your parents about the 1960’s…..to every generation, a new immigrant ‘problem’.

I know its a serious issue, but I really do find it ironic that in a country – where 99% of the population come from somewhere else – there’s so much outrage that people from other countries have the temerity to try and do what your ancestors did.

Oh, the Horror!!

Don’t try and tell me that all your ancestors came here ‘by-the-book’, because its not true. I know mine came here every which-way, thier only excuse being that they did it long enough ago to be considered ‘legit’ now.
Unless you’re pureblood Native American then at some point in the last 400 years, one of your ancestors spoke a language other than English and/or was born in another country.

And, as an interesting aside – the ‘baying for blood’ volume is in direct correlation to the state of the economy – when I first moved back here 7 years ago, no one had anything to say about immigration.

Now, I can’t turn on the TV without someone frothing at the mouth about ‘illegal aliens’- but now things have gone to hell in a handbasket over here, and someone is to blame. Typical ‘kick the dog’ mentality.

And as for the tired old ‘they’re using our health/school/welfare system!!’ – maybe you should be directing some of that ire towards the huge enormous scam that is the Insurance companies/Big pharma….why does it cost so much more for healthcare in the US than it does, say, in the UK? The UK is hardly 3rd World, yet it does a much better job for about the same tax money, per capita.

On a more practical note and ignoring the Moral Panic a moment… how much will it cost to deport 12 million people? Detention centers, more ICE enployees, etc… is it less or more expensive than bringing in a sensible immigration policy and enforcing the laws that already exist?

As the wife of an ‘immigrant’ I have to say that US polices are very, very broken – despite my husband being head-hunted to come and work here- and the majority of the paperwork being dealt with by his company, it still took 6 years (and 2 overnight ‘campouts’ in front of the Los Angeles INS building, plus two overseas trips to exit/enter the US for visa requirements ) from his intiital application to him getting his Green Card.

God only knows how long it takes, how expensive and frustrating it would be to try and do it on your own, espcecially if you’re in low paying unskilled work.

Don’t get me wrong – I’m not saying we should do nothing, but it really chaps my hide to hear the amount of jingoistic and xenophobic $rap that’s been flying around recently – losing every single ‘illegal alien’ tomorrow will not make America any better than it is today. The illegal ‘problem’ is a symptom, not the underlying illness.

Enforce the laws that exist – fine employers who use illgal labour, bring in ID cards linked to the INS system.
Allow only spouses and children of people working here long-term (2 or more years) entry and issue short-term (6 months out of 1 year) guest worker visas for people ( without thier families) to the many thousands who come here to work seasonally.
Make it easier to work here legaly, and far fewer people will come (with thier extended families) through the underground. Far fewer will overstay thier welcome if they know that it won’t be a years long, life-and-death struggle to re-enter the next time.

BTW – don’t know if anyone watches Penn & Teller’s ‘Bull$%it!” on Showtime.
A couple of weeks back, on their ‘Immigration’ programme they hired some illegal aliens to build a section of wall similar to the border fences going up.
After building it, the construction workers were asked to try and get past it- fastest time – about 5 minutes with the help of some tin snips…

The border fence is at best only a psychological barrier. At worst, an insane amount of money for about 5 minutes of stoppage time for someone crossing the border ilegally.

And – the Foreman who recruited the workers (at a local hardware store) was also a Foreman on the section of fence built near San Diego. According him, his construction company was fined over 50 times for using illegal construction workers to build the Border Fence…. 😉

[CDMA ENG]

CDMA ENG…

I have proposed it once and I’ll propose it again. The answer is very simple. Invaded Mexico! The mexicans want a system of goverment that’s fair (at least fairer than the corrupt one they have), access to better education, safety, and medical care.

We want cheap labor. Sounds like a match made in heaven. And since the Puerto Rican have been been turning us down for years…

Relax people… There is no easy answer on this one… Most of immigranted here no more than 80-100 years ago albeit legally…

[CDMA ENG]

CDMA ENG…

I have proposed it once and I’ll propose it again. The answer is very simple. Invaded Mexico! The mexicans want a system of goverment that’s fair (at least fairer than the corrupt one they have), access to better education, safety, and medical care.

We want cheap labor. Sounds like a match made in heaven. And since the Puerto Rican have been been turning us down for years…

Relax people… There is no easy answer on this one… Most of immigranted here no more than 80-100 years ago albeit legally…

[Coronita]

I'd love to import millions of hard working immigrants and offer them citzenship. But of course since US citizenship is a valuable thing, I would want to scrutinize who they are, where they come from, what skills they have, and confirm that they have a sponsor that will take care of them if necessary so they are not a drain on our public services. However, making wholesale citizens out of people whose first act was to violate the laws of another (our) country, and who demand benefits and the passage of laws meant to fix their self-imposed quandry, does not appeal to me. They should also certainly not go to the head of the line, period. For the life of me I cannot imagine the audacity it takes to demand things from another country and its citizens, especially one you broke into. When I travel abroad, I meticulously follow the laws of the countries I visit. I would never 'demand' anything from them, much less assert right for my particular "raza" while waving the flag of my homeland. Morever, under the current tax code which provides for the earned income tax credit, many many of these new "citizens" will immediately become tax takers, not tax payers. And this is before one considers the schooling costs for the children they are allowed to bring, the medical costs and SSI and SSDI payments for the parents they are allowed to bring (and who NEVER contributed anyting to the US economy and never will), and the costs to our society as it tries to assimilate tens of millions of people from the third world who speak a foreign language and are far from signed on to free maket capitalism. It is impossible to aregue that one or two adults making minimum wage are worth the associated costs for schooling, helthcare and the like for their family at large. If you think there is no downside to this Kennedy/Bush plan, take a look at the LA unified schoold district. It used to be a shining star for the entire country. Now, even with more per pupil spending than EVER, its more like a black hole than a shining star. Imagine another 5, or 10 or 20 million people flooding in wholesale, demanding rights, and unfettered access to the benefits of a social contract that they can't even read. THIS deal would make it better? No, our government has demonstrated twice, in 1965 and 1986, both time with Mr. Kennedy at the helm, that its plans cannot be trusted. It should enforce existing laws and when the flow by all accounts has been effectively stopped for a period of years, then we can reexamine the problem.

 

Don't get me wrong. I think this proposal is ridiculous. So ridiculous, there's really no point in worrying about it. It's a PR stunt by Congress that is pretty much DOA. What's more troubling to me is the anti-immigrant sentiment I see posted here.

I recognize that several folks drain our social system. But the real problem imho is that our social system is setup for people to be able to take advantage of it, both illegal and legal folks. Congress should fix that, and people's anger at these social giveaways should be focused getting Congress to change that.

For example, let's talk about welfare and SS benefits. In theory, i can apply for my in-laws PR here in the U.S. And finally when they get their U.S. citizenship here, I believe they would be entitled to receiving welfare, SS benefits etc, provided they have no assets here in the U.S, despite the fact that they have never worked here, never paid taxes here, and really shouldn't be eligible for any benefits.  They would be a drain on the system because the system is allowing folks who never contributed to it to take a cut. Solution: deny social programs and benefits who never contributed to the system. It would be fair, and apply to everyone (illegal and non-illegal). And I would be a proponent of this change to your social system…..Of course, these wouldn't be acceptable to lots of people, because people don't want to deal with this harsh situation. Some would feel it to be "immorale", for example, to deny health care to people who really need it but can't afford it and haven't paid a dime in taxes.

[Coronita]

I'd love to import millions of hard working immigrants and offer them citzenship. But of course since US citizenship is a valuable thing, I would want to scrutinize who they are, where they come from, what skills they have, and confirm that they have a sponsor that will take care of them if necessary so they are not a drain on our public services. However, making wholesale citizens out of people whose first act was to violate the laws of another (our) country, and who demand benefits and the passage of laws meant to fix their self-imposed quandry, does not appeal to me. They should also certainly not go to the head of the line, period. For the life of me I cannot imagine the audacity it takes to demand things from another country and its citizens, especially one you broke into. When I travel abroad, I meticulously follow the laws of the countries I visit. I would never 'demand' anything from them, much less assert right for my particular "raza" while waving the flag of my homeland. Morever, under the current tax code which provides for the earned income tax credit, many many of these new "citizens" will immediately become tax takers, not tax payers. And this is before one considers the schooling costs for the children they are allowed to bring, the medical costs and SSI and SSDI payments for the parents they are allowed to bring (and who NEVER contributed anyting to the US economy and never will), and the costs to our society as it tries to assimilate tens of millions of people from the third world who speak a foreign language and are far from signed on to free maket capitalism. It is impossible to aregue that one or two adults making minimum wage are worth the associated costs for schooling, helthcare and the like for their family at large. If you think there is no downside to this Kennedy/Bush plan, take a look at the LA unified schoold district. It used to be a shining star for the entire country. Now, even with more per pupil spending than EVER, its more like a black hole than a shining star. Imagine another 5, or 10 or 20 million people flooding in wholesale, demanding rights, and unfettered access to the benefits of a social contract that they can't even read. THIS deal would make it better? No, our government has demonstrated twice, in 1965 and 1986, both time with Mr. Kennedy at the helm, that its plans cannot be trusted. It should enforce existing laws and when the flow by all accounts has been effectively stopped for a period of years, then we can reexamine the problem.

 

Don't get me wrong. I think this proposal is ridiculous. So ridiculous, there's really no point in worrying about it. It's a PR stunt by Congress that is pretty much DOA. What's more troubling to me is the anti-immigrant sentiment I see posted here.

I recognize that several folks drain our social system. But the real problem imho is that our social system is setup for people to be able to take advantage of it, both illegal and legal folks. Congress should fix that, and people's anger at these social giveaways should be focused getting Congress to change that.

For example, let's talk about welfare and SS benefits. In theory, i can apply for my in-laws PR here in the U.S. And finally when they get their U.S. citizenship here, I believe they would be entitled to receiving welfare, SS benefits etc, provided they have no assets here in the U.S, despite the fact that they have never worked here, never paid taxes here, and really shouldn't be eligible for any benefits.  They would be a drain on the system because the system is allowing folks who never contributed to it to take a cut. Solution: deny social programs and benefits who never contributed to the system. It would be fair, and apply to everyone (illegal and non-illegal). And I would be a proponent of this change to your social system…..Of course, these wouldn't be acceptable to lots of people, because people don't want to deal with this harsh situation. Some would feel it to be "immorale", for example, to deny health care to people who really need it but can't afford it and haven't paid a dime in taxes.

[TheBreeze]

I would impeach Bush on Iraq but give him credit for doing the right thing on immigration. That shows you how opposites differ but might become bedfellows to achieve a common goal. 🙂

jg and PerryChase secret bedfellows? Sounds like a love match made in heaven. 🙂

[Author]

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