ot; trayvon martin

[Allan from Fallbrook]

[quote=squat300]Juries never find any particular truth.

The only question they answer is whether doubt exists and whether the doubt is reasonable.

Jury might think Zimmerman attacked Martin, but have some doubt, and acquit.

It is only ever about doubts, uncertainties and reasonable possibilities….[/quote]

Scaredy: ALL juries, or simply those involved in criminal cases?

[scaredyclassic]

Criminal juries. Right. Civil ones just figure out what probably happened.

In either case they’re not particularly designed to find the truth.

In criminal cases its definitely not (or at least shouldnt be) about deciding what really happened, since it is often unknowable.

[ctr70]

All I know is the jury sat in that courtroom for weeks and heard every bit of evidence in person, looked the defendant in the eyes for weeks, and scrutinized every bit of evidence with excruciating detail. No one posting on this message board or Obama did that. And based on what they had they found GZ not guilty. Everything else is pure speculation and guess work.

[ctr70]

Also, in terms of racial profiling…90% of black homicides in this county come at the hands of other blacks. Is that due to racial profiling?

Blacks are 13% of the U.S. population and commit a disproportionate amount crimes such as robbery, aggravated assault and property crimes. Is that due to racial profiling? Is the elevated high school dropout rate for blacks due to racial profiling? Is the fact that 75% black households growing up without their fathers due to racial profiling?

My point is that racial profiling is a bad, bad thing, but it’s not really the main issue at all.

Everybody wants to see the black community make great strides and improvements. And obviously racial profiling happens in society and it is a horrible, horrible demeaning thing to happen to a person. But my point is people like Al Sharpton and the mainstream media seem come out of the woodwork and go nuts about something like this when they are nowhere to be seen with the bigger issues. Why isn’t Al Sharpton doing demonstrations and getting black celebrities out in force regarding the thousands of black on black murders? The George Zimmermans of the world are not the issue in the black community! Non blacks murdering blacks because of racial profiling is a TINY PERCENTAGE. A rounding error. This stuff gets every one off focus of the real issues and then the REAL problems never get addressed.

I also really tire of the liberal far left political correctness on racial issues (and for the record I am liberal on most social issues and fiscally conservative). I think liberals can be some of the worst racists of all, being racists of low expectations of a person ability to think for themselves & pull themselves up. The whole “victim ” mentality crap. They never want to hurt anyone’s feelings or step on anyone’s toes, so they perpetuate mis-truths just to be politically correct, and therefore progress is never made because the truth is never told. They fail to put much of the blame on the *personal responsibility* of the black community and continue to perpetuate the myth that “white racism” is to blame for everything. They fail to tell the truth that much of someones situation in life comes from the *personal decisions* they make and the *personal actions* they take. And no amount of Government funding is going to solve that. If you commit a crime that is a *personal decision* you make on your own, and you own that decision, that is NOBODY ELSES FAULT!

When you blame everything on “white racism”, it takes away the other parties personal responsibility and personal accountability. Any failure in your life you can just easily blame on white racism. “I committed this crime and abandoned my kids because of white racism”. “I’m in this situation in life because of white racism.” Of course none of it had anything at all to do with my personal decisions in life or own self discipline.

I really like what Bill Cosby has to say on the status of Black America and what needs to be done to improve it. He has been one of the most interesting voices on this topic IMO. He is big on personal responsibility and accountability, and not the whole bleeding heart liberal denial game. And it’s not stuff Al Sharpton would likely agree with, at least publicly.

[Allan from Fallbrook]

Ctr: Wow. Amazing post and good on you for having the balls to post it.

I made some of the same points to a liberal friend and she airily dismissed it as being factually incorrect (it wasn’t) and then saying I should be careful about such comments, lest I be perceived as a racist.

And that’s how the game is played. No facts, please, and, if you bring facts, well, you must be a racist.

I want to retch every time I see the Good Reverend Sharpton. I wonder why none of his colleagues on MSNBC every bring up Tawana Brawley or Crown Heights. Then I remember: It’s a game. If you don’t play along and mouth the appropriate slogans with the appropriate fervor, then you run the real risk of the “R word” being appended to you. Like the scarlet letter.

[mike92104]

[quote=ctr70]Also, in terms of racial profiling…90% of black homicides in this county come at the hands of other blacks. Is that due to racial profiling?

Blacks are 13% of the U.S. population and commit a disproportionate amount crimes such as robbery, aggravated assault and property crimes. Is that due to racial profiling? Is the elevated high school dropout rate for blacks due to racial profiling? Is the fact that 75% black households growing up without their fathers due to racial profiling?[/quote]

This unfortunately is all due to poverty in my opinion. Something all this racial PC BS does nothing for.

[NotCranky]

No need to get all esoteric on us, Scaredy, the defendant did nothing wrong.

“I never heard tell that it was against the law for a citizen to do his utmost to prevent a crime from being committed, which is exactly what he did.”

-“to Kill a Mocking Bird”

[paramount]

To an extent I saw this case as someone protecting their property (collective and/or personal).

[outtamojo]

[quote=ctr70]Also, in terms of racial profiling…90% of black homicides in this county come at the hands of other blacks. Is that due to racial profiling?

Blacks are 13% of the U.S. population and commit a disproportionate amount crimes such as robbery, aggravated assault and property crimes. Is that due to racial profiling? Is the elevated high school dropout rate for blacks due to racial profiling? Is the fact that 75% black households growing up without their fathers due to racial profiling?

My point is that racial profiling is a bad, bad thing, but it’s not really the main issue at all.

Everybody wants to see the black community make great strides and improvements. And obviously racial profiling happens in society and it is a horrible, horrible demeaning thing to happen to a person. But my point is people like Al Sharpton and the mainstream media seem come out of the woodwork and go nuts about something like this when they are nowhere to be seen with the bigger issues. Why isn’t Al Sharpton doing demonstrations and getting black celebrities out in force regarding the thousands of black on black murders? The George Zimmermans of the world are not the issue in the black community! Non blacks murdering blacks because of racial profiling is a TINY PERCENTAGE. A rounding error. This stuff gets every one off focus of the real issues and then the REAL problems never get addressed.

I also really tire of the liberal far left political correctness on racial issues (and for the record I am liberal on most social issues and fiscally conservative). I think liberals can be some of the worst racists of all, being racists of low expectations of a person ability to think for themselves & pull themselves up. The whole “victim ” mentality crap. They never want to hurt anyone’s feelings or step on anyone’s toes, so they perpetuate mis-truths just to be politically correct, and therefore progress is never made because the truth is never told. They fail to put much of the blame on the *personal responsibility* of the black community and continue to perpetuate the myth that “white racism” is to blame for everything. They fail to tell the truth that much of someones situation in life comes from the *personal decisions* they make and the *personal actions* they take. And no amount of Government funding is going to solve that. If you commit a crime that is a *personal decision* you make on your own, and you own that decision, that is NOBODY ELSES FAULT!

When you blame everything on “white racism”, it takes away the other parties personal responsibility and personal accountability. Any failure in your life you can just easily blame on white racism. “I committed this crime and abandoned my kids because of white racism”. “I’m in this situation in life because of white racism.” Of course none of it had anything at all to do with my personal decisions in life or own self discipline.

I really like what Bill Cosby has to say on the status of Black America and what needs to be done to improve it. He has been one of the most interesting voices on this topic IMO. He is big on personal responsibility and accountability, and not the whole bleeding heart liberal denial game. And it’s not stuff Al Sharpton would likely agree with, at least publicly.[/quote]

“white racism” is profiling too I agree and notice that many get upset when thusly profiled.

[outtamojo]

[quote=ctr70]All I know is the jury sat in that courtroom for weeks and heard every bit of evidence in person, looked the defendant in the eyes for weeks, and scrutinized every bit of evidence with excruciating detail. No one posting on this message board or Obama did that. And based on what they had they found GZ not guilty. Everything else is pure speculation and guess work.[/quote]

Nobody has ever been wrongly convicted, in general?

[scaredyclassic]

http://www.ironicsurrealism.com/2013/07/20/justicefortrayvon-where-is-justice-for-christopher-cervini-jury-finds-black-man-not-guilty-after-he-shot-unarmed-white-teen-in-self-defense/

story on black guy shooting white kid gets an NG in NY.

perhaps the problems of America are unfixable.

[FlyerInHi]

We may profile but we should not condone it or even talk casually about it. Certain things are just not acceptable. And it’s not ok for profiling to be part of institutions such as the police.

Blogstar said kids are not racist. I pretty much agree. Racist parents bring up racist kids. Young people are better than the older generations.

For those who think that profiling or “intuition” is ok, how about profiling based on other parts of “looks” such as beauty, weight, height, fashion, etc…?

[Allan from Fallbrook]

[quote=FlyerInHi]We may profile but we should not condone it or even talk casually about it. Certain things are just not acceptable. And it’s not ok for profiling to be part of institutions such as the police.

Blogstar said kids are not racist. I pretty much agree. Racist parents bring up racist kids. Younig people are better than the older generations.

For those who think that profiling or “intuition” is ok, how about profiling based on other parts of “looks” such as beauty, weight, height, fashion, etc…?[/quote]

How about FBI profilers? I don’t think you’re approaching profiling from quite the right perspective. I want law enforcement to profile, if they’re using good intel and good inputs. I want cops using their intuition (which is a product of training and experience). As a former soldier, I’ll tell you that instinct and intuition saved my happy ass numerous times. You ignore such things at your peril.

Ask any good intel operator if he’d rather have intel developed from SIGINT/ELINT (Signals Intelligence/Electronic Intelligence) input or HUMINT (Human Intelligence).

[outtamojo]

[quote=squat300]http://www.ironicsurrealism.com/2013/07/20/justicefortrayvon-where-is-justice-for-christopher-cervini-jury-finds-black-man-not-guilty-after-he-shot-unarmed-white-teen-in-self-defense/

story on black guy shooting white kid gets an NG in NY.

perhaps the problems of America are unfixable.[/quote]

“The message is that we can all go out and get guns and feel anybody that we feel is threatening us and lie about the fact,” said Jim Cervini,…”

That, in a nutshell, is what I personally fear the most about the Zimmerman shooting.
Being in law enforcement is tough enough with training so when ordinary citizens try to play cop bad things seem to happen.
Supposedly they are neighbors.

[Allan from Fallbrook]

[quote=outtamojo][quote=squat300]
“The message is that we can all go out and get guns and feel anybody that we feel is threatening us and lie about the fact,” said Jim Cervini,…”

That, in a nutshell, is what I personally fear the most about the Zimmerman shooting.
Being in law enforcement is tough enough with training so when ordinary citizens try to play cop bad things seem to happen.
Supposedly they are neighbors.[/quote]

“When seconds count, the police are only minutes away…”

[Author]

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