ot; trayvon martin

[NotCranky]

Over empathizing or over sympathizing with a person or group because of race is racism. That’s true if it is your own race , which is probably more than half of all racism to go with the overt hate of others. It’s also true in the less common but still popular version that some people suffer from to extreme degrees when they apply it to people of other races.

Race neutrality is probably the ideal but we don’t live in bubbles so it will never be held 100% by an adult . Some children have it . Mine do, but it will be modified in the future by life experience, not necessarily by bad experiences with other races but by interaction with the topic in society in general.

Anyway, the over -sympathizers are swinging on the racism pendulum like anyone else . They are just on the opposite extreme of the arc from the haters.

[ctr70]

[quote=Allan from Fallbrook][quote=paramount]Obama enters the discussion, no doubt in part to deflect attention from Benghazi and other issues.[/quote]

Paramount: While I don’t disagree that Obama & Co. are undoubtedly welcoming this as a distraction, I will personally say that I found his remarks very sincere and made in the spirit of unity.

Given the off-the-cuff nature of the remarks, it was even more impressive. I don’t have much love for the man, especially due to his policies, but he was a national leader in that speech.[/quote]

I think a lot of what Obama said in his recent speech was more BS and blame shifting. Saying “that he could have been TM 35 years ago”. And that he’s been racially profiled. Continues to ignore the fact that a jury of 6 believed that TM jumped Zimmerman, pounded his head in the concrete to the point where GZ shot him in self defense. THAT IS WHAT A JURY OF 6 CONCLUDED! End of story. End of speculation. There is ZERO proof of any racial profiling. ZERO. Would have Obama 35 years ago also jumped someone and pounded their head in the concrete? I highly doubt it. Those comments to me continue to follow the black leaderships long history of shifting of blame for their behavior off themselves on to someone else.

[NotCranky]

[quote=squat300]more than one perspective can be correct. there can be truth in everyone’s position.

facts are fluid.[/quote]s

“Facts are fluid”:

I doubt the veracity of that .Facts are only fluid when people imagine or contrive what they don’t know or won’t accept.
Do we want facts to be fluid or malleable(convenient truths)? I see more of the later going on….some of it seems very shallow.

[outtamojo]

Getting off topic a little but I’m curious how much of this “logic based” profiling that is so acceptable (I’ll assume you are dangerous because almost everyone that looks like you is dangerous)carrries over when it comes to hiring- or does it magically disappear when one reaches the office?

[zk]

[quote=ctr70][quote=Allan from Fallbrook][quote=paramount]Obama enters the discussion, no doubt in part to deflect attention from Benghazi and other issues.[/quote]

Paramount: While I don’t disagree that Obama & Co. are undoubtedly welcoming this as a distraction, I will personally say that I found his remarks very sincere and made in the spirit of unity.

Given the off-the-cuff nature of the remarks, it was even more impressive. I don’t have much love for the man, especially due to his policies, but he was a national leader in that speech.[/quote]

I think a lot of what Obama said in his recent speech was more BS and blame shifting. Saying “that he could have been TM 35 years ago”. And that he’s been racially profiled. Continues to ignore the fact that a jury of 6 believed that TM jumped Zimmerman, pounded his head in the concrete to the point where GZ shot him in self defense. THAT IS WHAT A JURY OF 6 CONCLUDED! End of story. End of speculation. There is ZERO proof of any racial profiling. ZERO. Would have Obama 35 years ago also jumped someone and pounded their head in the concrete? I highly doubt it. Those comments to me continue to follow the black leaderships long history of shifting of blame for their behavior off themselves on to someone else.[/quote]

The arguments you make based on the jury’s decision are not valid.

The jury took into consideration all the evidence and all the laws. They decided (we’ll assume for the sake of argument that they concluded correctly) that GZ was not guilty of the crimes he was charged with. That doesn’t mean that there is ZERO proof of any racial profiling. It doesn’t mean anything except that, under Florida law, he’s not guilty of murder 2 or manslaughter. It doesn’t mean end of story or end of speculation, either. There are a lot of variables that certainly could be discussed regardless of GZ’s technical guilt or innocence under Florida law.

[zk]

[quote=outtamojo]Getting off topic a little but I’m curious how much of this “logic based” profiling that is so acceptable (I’ll assume you are dangerous because almost everyone that looks like you is dangerous)carrries over when it comes to hiring- or does it magically disappear when one reaches the office?[/quote]

I don’t think that’s off-topic at all.

I think it’s logical and reasonable to profile out on the street when you don’t know someone. You base your appraisal on what you see. I see a black and a white with identical clothes, body language, posture, facial expressions, hair style (wait, maybe not hair style), etc on the street. I’ll admit I’m more wary of the black guy. Unless maybe they’re both gangster-looking guys, in which case I’m significantly more wary of the black guy, figuring the white guy is probably more a wannabe whereas the black guy is probably the real deal. If the black guy is wearing a suit and the white guy looks mean, I’ll be more wary of the white guy. I could go on and on, but there are a thousand shades of gray, here. The point is, that I don’t know these guys. I’ve never met them or heard them speak. That’s the reason I’m profiling them. I’ve got my daughter with me, and I’ll make sure nothing happens to her whether it means “demeaning, demoralizing and insulting” someone or not. That just seems like common sense to me.

For a job interview or anytime you meet another person, you can (or should be able to) tell far more about them in the first 15 seconds than their skin color will ever tell you. Skin color should almost immediately disappear completely as an issue. Unless you’re a racist.

[CardiffBaseball]

[quote=SK in CV][quote=CardiffBaseball]
As far as the stuff on profiling, I find it’s somewhat idiotic for him to mention that, but I also understand he’s got to show some street-cred here. Cardiff understands the way the game is played, and right now I am content to give him a pass on this. I think he did enough to say “brothers I am with you in spirit” while at the same time tipping his hat, that this is probably over at the Federal level.[/quote]

I don’t think it was idiotic at all. I think it was essential for those who haven’t experienced it to understand the context of the reaction of the black community to the Martin killing. It happens every day in this country, probably thousands of times. Black men are stopped by police and others under the color of authority solely because they are black. Purses get clutched a little tighter, car doors get locked when a black man walks by. It happens in Florida, it happens in NYC, it happens in Carmel Valley. It’s overt racism, and it’s demeaning, demoralizing and insulting.[/quote]

God Bless you, you are a saint, fighting the good fight and telling us all how wrong it is. Great, wonderful. Now, what the fuck does that have to do with the George Zimmerman case, that the leader of the free world sees fit to bring it up, rather than bore us with stuff like how we as Americans accept the rule of law, american judiciary system etc. etc. None of that.

Now, if I seem harsh let me say this, I don’t BLAME Obama for saying it. Sure the logical side of me says it’s idiotic because he’s using the Zimmerman case as a platform to tell us how wrong it is to profile…. When there was zero evidence of racial profiling.

However, I am not that mad about it, like I said “Cardiff understand how the game is played”

Obama has to use this opportunity to earn street cred. Play along and Imagine for a second if he walked out on the White House Lawn and said “Sorry the DOJ will not be filing any Civil Rights Lawsuit against George Zimmerman since extensive background investigations concluded this action was not motivated by race.”

He would be raked over the coals by the leftist black leaders. With this speech he comes out in full support, and appears to be with them in spirit and wisely doesn’t answer questions. Marches will go on all day, everyone lets off a little steam, and Monday we all go back to work.

Only the logic side of me says it’s idiotic because the context to make the statement is lacking. As a matter fact the entire outrage about this incident is frankly so stupid it defies all sense of reason. It’s if people were itching for a fight. Don’t try to compare Trayvon to riding in the backs of buses or using alternate water fountains, it’s not gonna fly. Most non-blacks I talk to the White-Guilt meter is on empty.

[paramount]

Isn’t racism more about behavior than skin color?

[Allan from Fallbrook]

Cardiff: Now, imagine for a second you’re a second-term president and that you’re beset on all sides with a variety of problems, both domestic and foreign policy related. Your strategy is not only being called into question by your opponents in the GOP, but erstwhile allies in your own party.

Your approval numbers are sinking, you’re facing the admittedly difficult implementation of your signature piece of legislation (which is highly unpopular with the populace at large) and you’re heading into the mid-terms where a lackluster base is the norm and not the exception.

How would one fire up a key segment of that base? A key segment that self-identifies with this particular president based on race?

[CardiffBaseball]

[quote=Allan from Fallbrook]Cardiff: Now, imagine for a second you’re a second-term president and that you’re beset on all sides with a variety of problems, both domestic and foreign policy related. Your strategy is not only being called into question by your opponents in the GOP, but erstwhile allies in your own party.

Your approval numbers are sinking, you’re facing the admittedly difficult implementation of your signature piece of legislation (which is highly unpopular with the populace at large) and you’re heading into the mid-terms where a lackluster base is the norm and not the exception.

How would one fire up a key segment of that base? A key segment that self-identifies with this particular president based on race?[/quote]

There is that. No sense talking about Ben Ghazi, IRS, Snowden, NSA, TSA snooping. Answering no questions is wise at this point.

[creechrr]

[quote=ctr70][quote=Allan from Fallbrook][quote=paramount]Obama enters the discussion, no doubt in part to deflect attention from Benghazi and other issues.[/quote]

Paramount: While I don’t disagree that Obama & Co. are undoubtedly welcoming this as a distraction, I will personally say that I found his remarks very sincere and made in the spirit of unity.

Given the off-the-cuff nature of the remarks, it was even more impressive. I don’t have much love for the man, especially due to his policies, but he was a national leader in that speech.[/quote]

I think a lot of what Obama said in his recent speech was more BS and blame shifting. Saying “that he could have been TM 35 years ago”. And that he’s been racially profiled. Continues to ignore the fact that a jury of 6 believed that TM jumped Zimmerman, pounded his head in the concrete to the point where GZ shot him in self defense. THAT IS WHAT A JURY OF 6 CONCLUDED! End of story. End of speculation. There is ZERO proof of any racial profiling. ZERO. Would have Obama 35 years ago also jumped someone and pounded their head in the concrete? I highly doubt it. Those comments to me continue to follow the black leaderships long history of shifting of blame for their behavior off themselves on to someone else.[/quote]

The speech was merely an explanation of how an African-American’s perception of the case or life in general could be different than that of the average Anglo. I heard no judgement or criticism in the speech. Please listen again with an open mind.

I believe it all comes down to distrust. Yes, times have changed significantly in many parts of the country but, memories are long.

One of the posters above recounts the hassles one of his kid’s friends. I can tell you from experience that interaction breeds distrust and disgust. I had a discussion about this at work with co-workers the other day and my co-workers seemed to be shocked that I and another “black guy” were fearful/distrustful of the cops based on our personal experiences. If the shoes were on the other foot for a day I think most of you would be appalled.

Today I’m 37 and I don’t touch anything I don’t have to when I’m in a store. I stay in the middle of the isle and try to stay in clear view of cameras. I do this mainly to reduce the chances of an accusation of some sort of wrong doing being leveled at me because the accusation alone can be more than enough.

Sadly, I teach my sons to do the same. We’re not criminals, far from it but, there’s always the chance that we could be held responsible for the perceptions of others.

[scaredyclassic]

Where you stand depends on where you sit.

Which truth is most useful? Which most just?

Which seems most to accord with what I think I perceive around me today.

Which truth makes me feel better?

Which truth justifies me?

Which facts shall I marshal and which shall I ignore.

[scaredyclassic]

“Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a very persistent one”

why do black males commit crimes at higher rates?

according to the national geographic this month, racism may come ultimately from our love of sugar…

[Allan from Fallbrook]

[quote=squat300]”Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a very persistent one”

why do black males commit crimes at higher rates?[/quote]

Scaredy: Daniel Patrick Moynihan had some very poignant and very prescient thoughts on this, along with his views on the damage that race- positive (versus race-neutral) government policies would cause.

We destroyed the black family and with it the black community and created a permanent and pernicious underclass.

Sadly, this, along with politicians (both GOP and Dem) wanting to be perceived as strongly in support of “Law & Order” policies, like mandatory sentencing and Three Strikes, has criminalized an entire segment of our society.

For the record, I still think it’s about class and not just race.

[scaredyclassic]

Juries never find any particular truth.

The only question they answer is whether doubt exists and whether the doubt is reasonable.

Jury might think Zimmerman attacked Martin, but have some doubt, and acquit.

It is only ever about doubts, uncertainties and reasonable possibilities….

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