ot; trayvon martin

[scaredyclassic]

There’s facts…

There’s feelings…

And there’s no clear line between them…

[outtamojo]

[quote=squat300]true. so, you’re a prosecutor somewhere and you hear these facts in Florida.

Older black male is out at night on his porch and sees a young white kid walking down the street who is looking for a half pound of marijuana from a dealer he knows. Black male adult knows the white kid doesn’t belong there, and is sick of white kids coming to his neighborhood and fostering the drug trade. Black male adult starts following white kid, who gets freaked out. Black male adult yells “hey you, what the fuck are you doing in my ‘hood? Yeah you, stop and explain what the fuck you are doing here!”

Black male adult corners white teen; teen starts frantically punching the black male. Black male adult is losing the fight when he reaches into his waistband, pulls out a saturday ngiht special and blasts the white kid away. White kid is an honors student in a local white neighborhood who had been accepted to an Ivy League school and was trying to score drugs for a going away party for all his friends, whoa re also goign to ivy league schools.

black male was dressed in gang-like attire; white kid was dressed in preppy button down and khakis and arrived in his physician dad’s lexus.

Question: Is the black guy here as innocent as Zimmerman? Clearly the white kid here was more blameworthy in terms of his criminal intent for being in the location. But what about the black male. We definitely don’t want “feelings” to intrude, only facts…

Bonus points: you’re the prosecutor. Do you think it will be easier to get a conviction on the above facts than on George Z.?[/quote]

Funny, that’s almost the same thing I envisioned except it was the Griswolds taking a wrong turn on their vacation and some black guy asks them if they have drugs in their station wagon then when the Griswolds try to speed away in panic they are all shot dead cause the black guy felt like they were gonna run him over.

[scaredyclassic]

A black man running down the street as fast as he can in a white neighborhood.

A white man running down the street as fast as he can in a black neighborhood.

Do you think it likely they’re running for the same reason?

[jstoesz]

Scardey, I think you are falling for the “all else equal” fallacy.

If all else between the two men is identical but the color of their skin. Meaning they have the same clothing, mannerisms, facial expressions, etc. I doubt many would judge the runners differently.

Now the questions is are some of those other characteristics fair to judge on. Seems to me, sometimes yes, sometimes no. Hows that for muddying the waters.

[jstoesz]

I think there is a dave barry latin term for that…
Ceteris paribus.

[outtamojo]

[quote=squat300]A black man running down the street as fast as he can in a white neighborhood.

A white man running down the street as fast as he can in a black neighborhood.

Do you think it likely they’re running for the same reason?[/quote]

I think most people would answer no. I thought it hilarious when New York Giant Victor Cruz tweeted

“Thoroughly confused. Zimmerman doesn’t last a year before the hood catches up to him.”

Is that not profiling the hood?

Is not the lesson here don’t go where you don’t fit in? How un-American have we become…

[FlyerInHi]

Yep, feelings is how people decide based in the incomplete facts they have.

My personal feeling is the Zimmerman needs to be convicted of something and go to prison. Otherwise there is no justice.

In talking to friends and acquaintances one issue that came up again an again was “what did Martin expect dressed like a thug in a white neighborhood?”.

That’s a very establishment point of view. I tend to be anti establishment simply because the establishment has too many protectors already. It doesn’t need more.

I’m happy that the Zimmerman trial causes us to reflect on some ugly parts of our society. I’m also glad that Dzohar Tsarnaev is on the cover of Rolling Stone magazine.

[scaredyclassic]

Eric holder, black, got stopped while running; probably looked as joggerly as your avg white dude who is so unlikely to get stopped running.

[scaredyclassic]

[quote=jstoesz]Scardey, I think you are falling for the “all else equal” fallacy.

If all else between the two men is identical but the color of their skin. Meaning they have the same clothing, mannerisms, facial expressions, etc. I doubt many would judge the runners differently.

Now the questions is are some of those other characteristics fair to judge on. Seems to me, sometimes yes, sometimes no. Hows that for muddying the waters.[/quote]

I’m willing to bet the vast majority of people, and cops, are going to say it is statistically more likely that the black guy is running as fast as he can for a bad reason than the white guy and therefore more reasonable to stop him, all other factors being identical and that the white guys trying to get to his max heart rate.

[CA renter]

[quote=squat300]A black man running down the street as fast as he can in a white neighborhood.

A white man running down the street as fast as he can in a black neighborhood.

Do you think it likely they’re running for the same reason?[/quote]

How about a white kid with a shaved head, neck and face tattoos, and a “methy” look about him? Think he’d be treated the same in any neighborhood as a clean-cut kid of any color?

The fact is that all animals profile. It’s a survival tactic. The “dangerous” looking animal/thing is never going to be treated the same as something more benign looking. It’s not about color, but about culture. People who **look** like they are criminals (and many of them try their damndest to look like criminals) will be treated like criminals. They will be watched more closely and people will be on their guard around them, ready to fight if need be. Why would anyone expect any different?

[CA renter]

[quote=squat300]

I’m willing to bet the vast majority of people, and cops, are going to say it is statistically more likely that the black guy is running as fast as he can for a bad reason than the white guy and therefore more reasonable to stop him, all other factors being identical and that the white guys trying to get to his max heart rate.[/quote]

Also true, both the statistics and this being the reason for people feeling this way. Again, why do you think people should ignore common sense?

[scaredyclassic]

I don’t … I just don’t think we should pretend that we judge people on trial solely on “facts” and not on the thousands of feelings, hunches and statistical intuitions we impart to a situation.

I’m not saying the Zimmerman jury got it wrong. I don’t know the Florida laws. It sounds like they were pretty good about following the letter if the law and if so I commend them for it.

However, what makes the jury sometimes want to be punctilious about the law and sometimes not may be matters unrelated to pure fact, if there even is such a thing…

[FlyerInHi]

Squat’s point was that people don’t decide based on objective cold facts alone.

As you said, CAr, the way people look and behave affect how others feel about facts.

My friend told me a couple days ago that Bob Filner just looks like a sexual predator. She would not trust her kids anywhere near him. Fair or not?

[CA renter]

I can’t comment on Florida law because I understand it even less (far less) than you do.

The fact is that if people want to do something about racism , the next step MUST come from within the African-American community. I don’t think the trial verdict was a result of racism, but the hysteria and riots, etc. before and after the trial are the result of racism from all sides. They, as a whole community, need to stand up and take responsibility for their role in racism against black people — and theirs is the biggest role, IMHO.

If they want their kids to not be treated like criminals (or experience the racism that results from this stereotype), then they need to embrace and enforce an anti-criminal/anti-gang culture within their own communities, and it has to be on all levels. They need to stop having children out of wedlock which only exacerbates the never-ending cycle of poverty and criminal behavior, and they need to stop excusing criminal behavior by blaming it on “whitey” or other external forces that have nothing to do with their kids’ criminal behavior.

By embracing “black music” that denigrates women, other black people, white people, etc. they are fueling the fire of racism as well. They need to put a better, more positive face on “Black Society” in a number of ways, and that can only be done from the inside. Time to stop blaming all of their ills on the white man and start doing more to better themselves.

[outtamojo]

[quote=FlyerInHi]Yep, feelings is how people decide based in the incomplete facts they have.

My personal feeling is the Zimmerman needs to be convicted of something and go to prison. Otherwise there is no justice.

In talking to friends and acquaintances one issue that came up again an again was “what did Martin expect dressed like a thug in a white neighborhood?”.

That’s a very establishment point of view. I tend to be anti establishment simply because the establishment has too many protectors already. It doesn’t need more.

I’m happy that the Zimmerman trial causes us to reflect on some ugly parts of our society. I’m also glad that Dzohar Tsarnaev is on the cover of Rolling Stone magazine.[/quote]

Very much agree. At the very least Zimmerman should be prohibited form owning a gun ever again
as all the genius had to do was pull it out in the first place and then the odds of a physical altercation drop to nearly zero. Seems like he allowed engagement knowing he had a gun and surmised rightly that once things became physical he could pull it out and justify shooting someone.
I am terrified for my son knowing the stupid things males do as teens and fear the idiocy and poor judgement of the establishment and their supposed common sense.

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