OT – Joe the Plumber

[gandalf]

Things have veered too far to the right in this country, and the majority is in the process of reasserting control, taking issues back to center. Enough is enough.

SDR: I appreciate your comments. You’re one of the posters I respect, knowledgeable comments and you conduct yourself well. I apologize if I’m a bit abrasive from time to time.

I completely support a flat tax as a percentage of change in wealth with ZERO avoidance.

I have no idea how to get there given the accounting games and utter alchemy introduced into our financial system in the past 30 years. Nor do I have much confidence in the political will of congress and our states to institute reform.

What I object to on this board and elsewhere, and I suspect the majority of people in this country object to, is this steady right-wing drumbeat of propoganda, and in this particular case suggesting that any change to tax policy is socialism.

Across the board — federal and state governments, counties, municipalities, institutions, agencies, corporations — we are on the brink of insolvency, if not outright bankruptcy. The economic issues, currency failure, has become a national security matter now.

You simply CANNOT have government, roads, sewers, schools, police, firefighters, wars and national defense, homeland security, safe food, clean water, a fraud-free financial system — WITHOUT PAYING FOR IT. There is room to debate what programs should be funded. But you must pay for it.

The status quo has evolved to a point where it pays for it by taxing the middle class disproportionately. Wealthy individuals and big corporations DO NOT pay tax at the SAME RATE as average people. THEY PAY LESS.

Or increasingly, it moves the costs off-books by borrowing the funds against our children. If it were public-sector investment it would be okay, but it’s not. We’re mortgaging our kids future to finance the operating needs of government. It’s disgusting.

All this noise about socialism and how democrats want to take all your money and give it to black people who don’t work is insidious republican horseshit. And you know damn well that’s the underlying message.

We need to collectively quit LYING and start conducting ourselves with some semblance of responsibility and honor because we have big problems right now.

[Aecetia]

I agree with a flat tax rate, so I agree with Gandalf. What’s next?

“updated 11:48 a.m. PT, Sat., Nov. 1, 2003
WASHINGTON, Nov. 2 – The flat tax, long a dream of economic conservatives, is finally getting its day — not in the United States, but in Iraq.”

[Aecetia]

I agree with a flat tax rate, so I agree with Gandalf. What’s next?

“updated 11:48 a.m. PT, Sat., Nov. 1, 2003
WASHINGTON, Nov. 2 – The flat tax, long a dream of economic conservatives, is finally getting its day — not in the United States, but in Iraq.”

[Aecetia]

I agree with a flat tax rate, so I agree with Gandalf. What’s next?

“updated 11:48 a.m. PT, Sat., Nov. 1, 2003
WASHINGTON, Nov. 2 – The flat tax, long a dream of economic conservatives, is finally getting its day — not in the United States, but in Iraq.”

[Aecetia]

I agree with a flat tax rate, so I agree with Gandalf. What’s next?

“updated 11:48 a.m. PT, Sat., Nov. 1, 2003
WASHINGTON, Nov. 2 – The flat tax, long a dream of economic conservatives, is finally getting its day — not in the United States, but in Iraq.”

[Aecetia]

I agree with a flat tax rate, so I agree with Gandalf. What’s next?

“updated 11:48 a.m. PT, Sat., Nov. 1, 2003
WASHINGTON, Nov. 2 – The flat tax, long a dream of economic conservatives, is finally getting its day — not in the United States, but in Iraq.”

[afx114]

I had a heated debate with family over the weekend. My family was complaining that “Obama is going to raise my taxes.” We got into a big argument – I told them unless they made over $250,000 (they don’t come close), they wouldn’t be taxed, but they didn’t care. “We don’t want to give our hard earned money to lazy bums!”

The irony is, one family member is a Sheriff (his paycheck comes from taxes!) and another is disabled (his disability checks come from taxes! Not to mention all the money spent making city streets, sidewalks, and facilities accessible for him). They were completely oblivious to the disconnect between their everyday lives and their positions on taxes. They see taxes as “stealing my money to give to lazy people” and they fail to see all of the services that they receive and enjoy on a daily basis as a result of taxes.

Then I asked them if they support the war, and of course they do. So I continued, “how do you expect to pay for the war? It costs us billions and billions of dollars per week to fund the war, where do you think that money comes from?” They had no answer. I was waiting for one of them to reply, “put it on the credit card, that’s what we do!” It was as if they didn’t realize that their taxes are what fund things like war, streets, police, fire, wheelchair accessibility, schools, our relatively low gas prices, national parks, etc. They were completely oblivious, they just knew that “taxes are bad!” despite all of the evidence on how taxes improve their lives.

They kept saying, “why should I pay my hard earned money to help someone else out?” I didn’t have the heart or the balls to tell them, “why should I pay my hard earned money so that you can keep getting your disability check?” The only thing I could tell them was that I’m fortunate enough to be in a position where I’m willing and able to pay a little more in order to help out those less fortunate than me.

I believe that this is the fundamental difference between the two sides of the argument – one side gains satisfaction out of helping those who are less fortunate. The other side does not.

[afx114]

I had a heated debate with family over the weekend. My family was complaining that “Obama is going to raise my taxes.” We got into a big argument – I told them unless they made over $250,000 (they don’t come close), they wouldn’t be taxed, but they didn’t care. “We don’t want to give our hard earned money to lazy bums!”

The irony is, one family member is a Sheriff (his paycheck comes from taxes!) and another is disabled (his disability checks come from taxes! Not to mention all the money spent making city streets, sidewalks, and facilities accessible for him). They were completely oblivious to the disconnect between their everyday lives and their positions on taxes. They see taxes as “stealing my money to give to lazy people” and they fail to see all of the services that they receive and enjoy on a daily basis as a result of taxes.

Then I asked them if they support the war, and of course they do. So I continued, “how do you expect to pay for the war? It costs us billions and billions of dollars per week to fund the war, where do you think that money comes from?” They had no answer. I was waiting for one of them to reply, “put it on the credit card, that’s what we do!” It was as if they didn’t realize that their taxes are what fund things like war, streets, police, fire, wheelchair accessibility, schools, our relatively low gas prices, national parks, etc. They were completely oblivious, they just knew that “taxes are bad!” despite all of the evidence on how taxes improve their lives.

They kept saying, “why should I pay my hard earned money to help someone else out?” I didn’t have the heart or the balls to tell them, “why should I pay my hard earned money so that you can keep getting your disability check?” The only thing I could tell them was that I’m fortunate enough to be in a position where I’m willing and able to pay a little more in order to help out those less fortunate than me.

I believe that this is the fundamental difference between the two sides of the argument – one side gains satisfaction out of helping those who are less fortunate. The other side does not.

[afx114]

I had a heated debate with family over the weekend. My family was complaining that “Obama is going to raise my taxes.” We got into a big argument – I told them unless they made over $250,000 (they don’t come close), they wouldn’t be taxed, but they didn’t care. “We don’t want to give our hard earned money to lazy bums!”

The irony is, one family member is a Sheriff (his paycheck comes from taxes!) and another is disabled (his disability checks come from taxes! Not to mention all the money spent making city streets, sidewalks, and facilities accessible for him). They were completely oblivious to the disconnect between their everyday lives and their positions on taxes. They see taxes as “stealing my money to give to lazy people” and they fail to see all of the services that they receive and enjoy on a daily basis as a result of taxes.

Then I asked them if they support the war, and of course they do. So I continued, “how do you expect to pay for the war? It costs us billions and billions of dollars per week to fund the war, where do you think that money comes from?” They had no answer. I was waiting for one of them to reply, “put it on the credit card, that’s what we do!” It was as if they didn’t realize that their taxes are what fund things like war, streets, police, fire, wheelchair accessibility, schools, our relatively low gas prices, national parks, etc. They were completely oblivious, they just knew that “taxes are bad!” despite all of the evidence on how taxes improve their lives.

They kept saying, “why should I pay my hard earned money to help someone else out?” I didn’t have the heart or the balls to tell them, “why should I pay my hard earned money so that you can keep getting your disability check?” The only thing I could tell them was that I’m fortunate enough to be in a position where I’m willing and able to pay a little more in order to help out those less fortunate than me.

I believe that this is the fundamental difference between the two sides of the argument – one side gains satisfaction out of helping those who are less fortunate. The other side does not.

[afx114]

I had a heated debate with family over the weekend. My family was complaining that “Obama is going to raise my taxes.” We got into a big argument – I told them unless they made over $250,000 (they don’t come close), they wouldn’t be taxed, but they didn’t care. “We don’t want to give our hard earned money to lazy bums!”

The irony is, one family member is a Sheriff (his paycheck comes from taxes!) and another is disabled (his disability checks come from taxes! Not to mention all the money spent making city streets, sidewalks, and facilities accessible for him). They were completely oblivious to the disconnect between their everyday lives and their positions on taxes. They see taxes as “stealing my money to give to lazy people” and they fail to see all of the services that they receive and enjoy on a daily basis as a result of taxes.

Then I asked them if they support the war, and of course they do. So I continued, “how do you expect to pay for the war? It costs us billions and billions of dollars per week to fund the war, where do you think that money comes from?” They had no answer. I was waiting for one of them to reply, “put it on the credit card, that’s what we do!” It was as if they didn’t realize that their taxes are what fund things like war, streets, police, fire, wheelchair accessibility, schools, our relatively low gas prices, national parks, etc. They were completely oblivious, they just knew that “taxes are bad!” despite all of the evidence on how taxes improve their lives.

They kept saying, “why should I pay my hard earned money to help someone else out?” I didn’t have the heart or the balls to tell them, “why should I pay my hard earned money so that you can keep getting your disability check?” The only thing I could tell them was that I’m fortunate enough to be in a position where I’m willing and able to pay a little more in order to help out those less fortunate than me.

I believe that this is the fundamental difference between the two sides of the argument – one side gains satisfaction out of helping those who are less fortunate. The other side does not.

[afx114]

I had a heated debate with family over the weekend. My family was complaining that “Obama is going to raise my taxes.” We got into a big argument – I told them unless they made over $250,000 (they don’t come close), they wouldn’t be taxed, but they didn’t care. “We don’t want to give our hard earned money to lazy bums!”

The irony is, one family member is a Sheriff (his paycheck comes from taxes!) and another is disabled (his disability checks come from taxes! Not to mention all the money spent making city streets, sidewalks, and facilities accessible for him). They were completely oblivious to the disconnect between their everyday lives and their positions on taxes. They see taxes as “stealing my money to give to lazy people” and they fail to see all of the services that they receive and enjoy on a daily basis as a result of taxes.

Then I asked them if they support the war, and of course they do. So I continued, “how do you expect to pay for the war? It costs us billions and billions of dollars per week to fund the war, where do you think that money comes from?” They had no answer. I was waiting for one of them to reply, “put it on the credit card, that’s what we do!” It was as if they didn’t realize that their taxes are what fund things like war, streets, police, fire, wheelchair accessibility, schools, our relatively low gas prices, national parks, etc. They were completely oblivious, they just knew that “taxes are bad!” despite all of the evidence on how taxes improve their lives.

They kept saying, “why should I pay my hard earned money to help someone else out?” I didn’t have the heart or the balls to tell them, “why should I pay my hard earned money so that you can keep getting your disability check?” The only thing I could tell them was that I’m fortunate enough to be in a position where I’m willing and able to pay a little more in order to help out those less fortunate than me.

I believe that this is the fundamental difference between the two sides of the argument – one side gains satisfaction out of helping those who are less fortunate. The other side does not.

[Veritas]

“While the names of interventionist politicians have changed, the Progressive Era still remains. The modern regulatory state is firmly rooted in Progressivist legislation of 100 years ago, the income tax still confiscates hard-earned wealth of productive Americans, and the Fed continues to inflate. The U.S. Supreme Court, once the bulwark against the Progressivist agenda, today gives rubber stamp approval to the latest legislative outrages.”

“Just as the political classes turned liberalism upon its head with Liberalism, so have Progressivists undermined the meaning of progress. The rise of humanity from its existence of perpetual poverty to the modern standard of living has occurred precisely because people were free to dream, invent, and invest. Real progress has happened because the stifling chains of government were removed from people. It is false Progress which seeks to reimpose those shackles.”

http://mises.org/story/364

[Veritas]

“While the names of interventionist politicians have changed, the Progressive Era still remains. The modern regulatory state is firmly rooted in Progressivist legislation of 100 years ago, the income tax still confiscates hard-earned wealth of productive Americans, and the Fed continues to inflate. The U.S. Supreme Court, once the bulwark against the Progressivist agenda, today gives rubber stamp approval to the latest legislative outrages.”

“Just as the political classes turned liberalism upon its head with Liberalism, so have Progressivists undermined the meaning of progress. The rise of humanity from its existence of perpetual poverty to the modern standard of living has occurred precisely because people were free to dream, invent, and invest. Real progress has happened because the stifling chains of government were removed from people. It is false Progress which seeks to reimpose those shackles.”

http://mises.org/story/364

[Veritas]

“While the names of interventionist politicians have changed, the Progressive Era still remains. The modern regulatory state is firmly rooted in Progressivist legislation of 100 years ago, the income tax still confiscates hard-earned wealth of productive Americans, and the Fed continues to inflate. The U.S. Supreme Court, once the bulwark against the Progressivist agenda, today gives rubber stamp approval to the latest legislative outrages.”

“Just as the political classes turned liberalism upon its head with Liberalism, so have Progressivists undermined the meaning of progress. The rise of humanity from its existence of perpetual poverty to the modern standard of living has occurred precisely because people were free to dream, invent, and invest. Real progress has happened because the stifling chains of government were removed from people. It is false Progress which seeks to reimpose those shackles.”

http://mises.org/story/364

[Veritas]

“While the names of interventionist politicians have changed, the Progressive Era still remains. The modern regulatory state is firmly rooted in Progressivist legislation of 100 years ago, the income tax still confiscates hard-earned wealth of productive Americans, and the Fed continues to inflate. The U.S. Supreme Court, once the bulwark against the Progressivist agenda, today gives rubber stamp approval to the latest legislative outrages.”

“Just as the political classes turned liberalism upon its head with Liberalism, so have Progressivists undermined the meaning of progress. The rise of humanity from its existence of perpetual poverty to the modern standard of living has occurred precisely because people were free to dream, invent, and invest. Real progress has happened because the stifling chains of government were removed from people. It is false Progress which seeks to reimpose those shackles.”

http://mises.org/story/364

[Author]

Posts