OT – Joe the Plumber

[SD Realtor]

Gandalf it is not the topic of the day. When I have posted about my political feelings they have always been towards opposition of redistribution of wealth.

Once more, I am not saying the current tax code works well. I agree with all of your points. This is what frustrates me…. I pose a very simple logical question. Yet the postings that respond to mine are not adressing my questions. Let’s review… Breeze is angry at anyone who is wealthy and therefore has decided that they all must pay. Who “they” are and where the line is drawn is still not aswered. PW has stated that there is a obligation of some sorts that those with wealth should pay more… simply because they have wealth. Umm… okay since this was how it was done in fuedal days, I guess this is how it should be done today… Now you have come in with an argument saying that current tax policy is regressive. Which is true and I do not dispute. Agreed with you. So why not let everyone pay the same rate. Flat tax if you will… I am fine with that.

Look I am by no means rich but in my trival example I am paying more money and it is not a trival amount of money. I didn’t even factor in cap gains yet as well.

Fine if you want to marginalize the argument and say that it is not important given larger issues then that is okay but it is important to me. So then I ask you Gandalf, where is the line drawn, who makes the arbitrary line, why is it only the rich should pay to help the poor?

Yes redistribution of wealth upwards is insidious. Yes the golden rule is that he who has the gold rules and no I don’t like that. However, do you think that corporate taxes will not be passed down to the consumer in the form of higher pricing? Do you think large government programs will be immune from cons, from people playing the system? Do you believe our government is a model for efficiency and utilizing increased tax revenues in an effective manner?

Look, I just as frustrated as everyone else but taxing more and then spending more… just doesn’t seem to be a logical solution to me for a country on the brink of bankruptcy. I cannot say I have a clear answer either other then to bail. We have started a passive search because in the long run, the country really doesn’t work anymore. However my solution is to be proactive on my own, with my money, my education, and my will to work. It is not to push my burden onto others because they have taken advantage of system where the cards are in thier favor. Believe it or not some of them made it on thier own fair and square and not all of them are crooks.

I guess you can deem this argument trivial. It is a matter of opinion and I respect that. However, I do not. I think Obama is a good man with a good heart and he truly believes what he is doing is right. Consequently I do cannot concur with you that since I oppose a redistribution of wealth that I am being hypocritical because todays tax laws are f’d up. Like I said, let it be flat, let everyone support the impoverished. Eliminate all loopholes.

[Coronita]

[quote]
Look at nearly all the successful people business people in America and most didn’t either go to college or were not geeks. Gates, Dell, etc. And for every Grove with PhD, I can name 10000 successful business owners.

If you look at the Pres Bush, Kerry, Biden, Powell, Mozillo, Palin, etc, these people are not the A students, they are mediocre students, many somehow getting Ivy League degrees. (Obama one of the few with decent grades, but who has NO street smarts or common sense, which cost him the election. How did that honors degree work out for him, whipped by the plumber!!)

The resentment of the wealthy may come from bailouts and the lack of any “personal responsibility”. “Those fat cats keep all the profits, but me Bob the taxpayer has to pay when he screws up”. We cant have any rules because Angelo and friends wont risk anything unless he knows that PIGGS will bail him if the market forces creates imbalances that cause rapid deceleration of job growth in their empire.
[/quote]

Holy shit. Now it’s an attack on folks college educated….Wow, the Cultural Revolution in America.
Didn’t one country already provide the flaw in that thinking?

[quote]
FLU touched upon Asians working really hard and not advancing as fast/far. If you want to get stuck in this predicament, just study hard, become a geek and end up a pathetic W2 casualty that will get taxed higher and higher by the man to pay for unlimited deficits. Our culture (and tax code) has deemed education passe. Like SDR said so eloquently, deal with it.
[/quote]

I’m doing quite well as a W2 casualty, thank you very much. In fact, perhaps my point was missed. I was never griping about my pay or compensation. Some of us do care about recognition outside of “job” and are frustrated with inequality and hypocracy of a particular political platform. But that’s beside the point. In short, I’ve just learned to pick my colleagues very very carefully.

[Coronita]

[quote]
Look at nearly all the successful people business people in America and most didn’t either go to college or were not geeks. Gates, Dell, etc. And for every Grove with PhD, I can name 10000 successful business owners.

If you look at the Pres Bush, Kerry, Biden, Powell, Mozillo, Palin, etc, these people are not the A students, they are mediocre students, many somehow getting Ivy League degrees. (Obama one of the few with decent grades, but who has NO street smarts or common sense, which cost him the election. How did that honors degree work out for him, whipped by the plumber!!)

The resentment of the wealthy may come from bailouts and the lack of any “personal responsibility”. “Those fat cats keep all the profits, but me Bob the taxpayer has to pay when he screws up”. We cant have any rules because Angelo and friends wont risk anything unless he knows that PIGGS will bail him if the market forces creates imbalances that cause rapid deceleration of job growth in their empire.
[/quote]

Holy shit. Now it’s an attack on folks college educated….Wow, the Cultural Revolution in America.
Didn’t one country already provide the flaw in that thinking?

[quote]
FLU touched upon Asians working really hard and not advancing as fast/far. If you want to get stuck in this predicament, just study hard, become a geek and end up a pathetic W2 casualty that will get taxed higher and higher by the man to pay for unlimited deficits. Our culture (and tax code) has deemed education passe. Like SDR said so eloquently, deal with it.
[/quote]

I’m doing quite well as a W2 casualty, thank you very much. In fact, perhaps my point was missed. I was never griping about my pay or compensation. Some of us do care about recognition outside of “job” and are frustrated with inequality and hypocracy of a particular political platform. But that’s beside the point. In short, I’ve just learned to pick my colleagues very very carefully.

[Coronita]

[quote]
Look at nearly all the successful people business people in America and most didn’t either go to college or were not geeks. Gates, Dell, etc. And for every Grove with PhD, I can name 10000 successful business owners.

If you look at the Pres Bush, Kerry, Biden, Powell, Mozillo, Palin, etc, these people are not the A students, they are mediocre students, many somehow getting Ivy League degrees. (Obama one of the few with decent grades, but who has NO street smarts or common sense, which cost him the election. How did that honors degree work out for him, whipped by the plumber!!)

The resentment of the wealthy may come from bailouts and the lack of any “personal responsibility”. “Those fat cats keep all the profits, but me Bob the taxpayer has to pay when he screws up”. We cant have any rules because Angelo and friends wont risk anything unless he knows that PIGGS will bail him if the market forces creates imbalances that cause rapid deceleration of job growth in their empire.
[/quote]

Holy shit. Now it’s an attack on folks college educated….Wow, the Cultural Revolution in America.
Didn’t one country already provide the flaw in that thinking?

[quote]
FLU touched upon Asians working really hard and not advancing as fast/far. If you want to get stuck in this predicament, just study hard, become a geek and end up a pathetic W2 casualty that will get taxed higher and higher by the man to pay for unlimited deficits. Our culture (and tax code) has deemed education passe. Like SDR said so eloquently, deal with it.
[/quote]

I’m doing quite well as a W2 casualty, thank you very much. In fact, perhaps my point was missed. I was never griping about my pay or compensation. Some of us do care about recognition outside of “job” and are frustrated with inequality and hypocracy of a particular political platform. But that’s beside the point. In short, I’ve just learned to pick my colleagues very very carefully.

[Coronita]

[quote]
Look at nearly all the successful people business people in America and most didn’t either go to college or were not geeks. Gates, Dell, etc. And for every Grove with PhD, I can name 10000 successful business owners.

If you look at the Pres Bush, Kerry, Biden, Powell, Mozillo, Palin, etc, these people are not the A students, they are mediocre students, many somehow getting Ivy League degrees. (Obama one of the few with decent grades, but who has NO street smarts or common sense, which cost him the election. How did that honors degree work out for him, whipped by the plumber!!)

The resentment of the wealthy may come from bailouts and the lack of any “personal responsibility”. “Those fat cats keep all the profits, but me Bob the taxpayer has to pay when he screws up”. We cant have any rules because Angelo and friends wont risk anything unless he knows that PIGGS will bail him if the market forces creates imbalances that cause rapid deceleration of job growth in their empire.
[/quote]

Holy shit. Now it’s an attack on folks college educated….Wow, the Cultural Revolution in America.
Didn’t one country already provide the flaw in that thinking?

[quote]
FLU touched upon Asians working really hard and not advancing as fast/far. If you want to get stuck in this predicament, just study hard, become a geek and end up a pathetic W2 casualty that will get taxed higher and higher by the man to pay for unlimited deficits. Our culture (and tax code) has deemed education passe. Like SDR said so eloquently, deal with it.
[/quote]

I’m doing quite well as a W2 casualty, thank you very much. In fact, perhaps my point was missed. I was never griping about my pay or compensation. Some of us do care about recognition outside of “job” and are frustrated with inequality and hypocracy of a particular political platform. But that’s beside the point. In short, I’ve just learned to pick my colleagues very very carefully.

[Coronita]

[quote]
Look at nearly all the successful people business people in America and most didn’t either go to college or were not geeks. Gates, Dell, etc. And for every Grove with PhD, I can name 10000 successful business owners.

If you look at the Pres Bush, Kerry, Biden, Powell, Mozillo, Palin, etc, these people are not the A students, they are mediocre students, many somehow getting Ivy League degrees. (Obama one of the few with decent grades, but who has NO street smarts or common sense, which cost him the election. How did that honors degree work out for him, whipped by the plumber!!)

The resentment of the wealthy may come from bailouts and the lack of any “personal responsibility”. “Those fat cats keep all the profits, but me Bob the taxpayer has to pay when he screws up”. We cant have any rules because Angelo and friends wont risk anything unless he knows that PIGGS will bail him if the market forces creates imbalances that cause rapid deceleration of job growth in their empire.
[/quote]

Holy shit. Now it’s an attack on folks college educated….Wow, the Cultural Revolution in America.
Didn’t one country already provide the flaw in that thinking?

[quote]
FLU touched upon Asians working really hard and not advancing as fast/far. If you want to get stuck in this predicament, just study hard, become a geek and end up a pathetic W2 casualty that will get taxed higher and higher by the man to pay for unlimited deficits. Our culture (and tax code) has deemed education passe. Like SDR said so eloquently, deal with it.
[/quote]

I’m doing quite well as a W2 casualty, thank you very much. In fact, perhaps my point was missed. I was never griping about my pay or compensation. Some of us do care about recognition outside of “job” and are frustrated with inequality and hypocracy of a particular political platform. But that’s beside the point. In short, I’ve just learned to pick my colleagues very very carefully.

[Anonymous]

Aren’t you all paying more than your fair share of taxes? Why don’t you stop working so hard? And by the way, let’s take it easy on the kids who realize this early and stop trying in school.
As for why should taxes go up,…well, I’d love it if we could have a flat sum tax, not rate, sum, everybody pay the same amount. What?!, some people don’t have enough? Well, it looks like we’ll have to tax the people who have the money. Funny how that works out.
I realize that all you super patriots are going to leave the country in a huff, taking all your vast wealth with you,…but we’ll try to squeak by with only normal patriots. It’s a pity that the US is such a pathetic country; someday I hope we’ll be able to talk about spreading wealth without forcing a redistribution of wealth. You know, create more so that we can all benefit. But that’s a crazy socialist dream since you all have managed to attain wealth solely through your own exertions with no help from society.

[Anonymous]

Aren’t you all paying more than your fair share of taxes? Why don’t you stop working so hard? And by the way, let’s take it easy on the kids who realize this early and stop trying in school.
As for why should taxes go up,…well, I’d love it if we could have a flat sum tax, not rate, sum, everybody pay the same amount. What?!, some people don’t have enough? Well, it looks like we’ll have to tax the people who have the money. Funny how that works out.
I realize that all you super patriots are going to leave the country in a huff, taking all your vast wealth with you,…but we’ll try to squeak by with only normal patriots. It’s a pity that the US is such a pathetic country; someday I hope we’ll be able to talk about spreading wealth without forcing a redistribution of wealth. You know, create more so that we can all benefit. But that’s a crazy socialist dream since you all have managed to attain wealth solely through your own exertions with no help from society.

[Anonymous]

Aren’t you all paying more than your fair share of taxes? Why don’t you stop working so hard? And by the way, let’s take it easy on the kids who realize this early and stop trying in school.
As for why should taxes go up,…well, I’d love it if we could have a flat sum tax, not rate, sum, everybody pay the same amount. What?!, some people don’t have enough? Well, it looks like we’ll have to tax the people who have the money. Funny how that works out.
I realize that all you super patriots are going to leave the country in a huff, taking all your vast wealth with you,…but we’ll try to squeak by with only normal patriots. It’s a pity that the US is such a pathetic country; someday I hope we’ll be able to talk about spreading wealth without forcing a redistribution of wealth. You know, create more so that we can all benefit. But that’s a crazy socialist dream since you all have managed to attain wealth solely through your own exertions with no help from society.

[Anonymous]

Aren’t you all paying more than your fair share of taxes? Why don’t you stop working so hard? And by the way, let’s take it easy on the kids who realize this early and stop trying in school.
As for why should taxes go up,…well, I’d love it if we could have a flat sum tax, not rate, sum, everybody pay the same amount. What?!, some people don’t have enough? Well, it looks like we’ll have to tax the people who have the money. Funny how that works out.
I realize that all you super patriots are going to leave the country in a huff, taking all your vast wealth with you,…but we’ll try to squeak by with only normal patriots. It’s a pity that the US is such a pathetic country; someday I hope we’ll be able to talk about spreading wealth without forcing a redistribution of wealth. You know, create more so that we can all benefit. But that’s a crazy socialist dream since you all have managed to attain wealth solely through your own exertions with no help from society.

[Anonymous]

Aren’t you all paying more than your fair share of taxes? Why don’t you stop working so hard? And by the way, let’s take it easy on the kids who realize this early and stop trying in school.
As for why should taxes go up,…well, I’d love it if we could have a flat sum tax, not rate, sum, everybody pay the same amount. What?!, some people don’t have enough? Well, it looks like we’ll have to tax the people who have the money. Funny how that works out.
I realize that all you super patriots are going to leave the country in a huff, taking all your vast wealth with you,…but we’ll try to squeak by with only normal patriots. It’s a pity that the US is such a pathetic country; someday I hope we’ll be able to talk about spreading wealth without forcing a redistribution of wealth. You know, create more so that we can all benefit. But that’s a crazy socialist dream since you all have managed to attain wealth solely through your own exertions with no help from society.

[gandalf]

Things have veered too far to the right in this country, and the majority is in the process of reasserting control, taking issues back to center. Enough is enough.

SDR: I appreciate your comments. You’re one of the posters I respect, knowledgeable comments and you conduct yourself well. I apologize if I’m a bit abrasive from time to time.

I completely support a flat tax as a percentage of change in wealth with ZERO avoidance.

I have no idea how to get there given the accounting games and utter alchemy introduced into our financial system in the past 30 years. Nor do I have much confidence in the political will of congress and our states to institute reform.

What I object to on this board and elsewhere, and I suspect the majority of people in this country object to, is this steady right-wing drumbeat of propoganda, and in this particular case suggesting that any change to tax policy is socialism.

Across the board — federal and state governments, counties, municipalities, institutions, agencies, corporations — we are on the brink of insolvency, if not outright bankruptcy. The economic issues, currency failure, has become a national security matter now.

You simply CANNOT have government, roads, sewers, schools, police, firefighters, wars and national defense, homeland security, safe food, clean water, a fraud-free financial system — WITHOUT PAYING FOR IT. There is room to debate what programs should be funded. But you must pay for it.

The status quo has evolved to a point where it pays for it by taxing the middle class disproportionately. Wealthy individuals and big corporations DO NOT pay tax at the SAME RATE as average people. THEY PAY LESS.

Or increasingly, it moves the costs off-books by borrowing the funds against our children. If it were public-sector investment it would be okay, but it’s not. We’re mortgaging our kids future to finance the operating needs of government. It’s disgusting.

All this noise about socialism and how democrats want to take all your money and give it to black people who don’t work is insidious republican horseshit. And you know damn well that’s the underlying message.

We need to collectively quit LYING and start conducting ourselves with some semblance of responsibility and honor because we have big problems right now.

[gandalf]

Things have veered too far to the right in this country, and the majority is in the process of reasserting control, taking issues back to center. Enough is enough.

SDR: I appreciate your comments. You’re one of the posters I respect, knowledgeable comments and you conduct yourself well. I apologize if I’m a bit abrasive from time to time.

I completely support a flat tax as a percentage of change in wealth with ZERO avoidance.

I have no idea how to get there given the accounting games and utter alchemy introduced into our financial system in the past 30 years. Nor do I have much confidence in the political will of congress and our states to institute reform.

What I object to on this board and elsewhere, and I suspect the majority of people in this country object to, is this steady right-wing drumbeat of propoganda, and in this particular case suggesting that any change to tax policy is socialism.

Across the board — federal and state governments, counties, municipalities, institutions, agencies, corporations — we are on the brink of insolvency, if not outright bankruptcy. The economic issues, currency failure, has become a national security matter now.

You simply CANNOT have government, roads, sewers, schools, police, firefighters, wars and national defense, homeland security, safe food, clean water, a fraud-free financial system — WITHOUT PAYING FOR IT. There is room to debate what programs should be funded. But you must pay for it.

The status quo has evolved to a point where it pays for it by taxing the middle class disproportionately. Wealthy individuals and big corporations DO NOT pay tax at the SAME RATE as average people. THEY PAY LESS.

Or increasingly, it moves the costs off-books by borrowing the funds against our children. If it were public-sector investment it would be okay, but it’s not. We’re mortgaging our kids future to finance the operating needs of government. It’s disgusting.

All this noise about socialism and how democrats want to take all your money and give it to black people who don’t work is insidious republican horseshit. And you know damn well that’s the underlying message.

We need to collectively quit LYING and start conducting ourselves with some semblance of responsibility and honor because we have big problems right now.

[gandalf]

Things have veered too far to the right in this country, and the majority is in the process of reasserting control, taking issues back to center. Enough is enough.

SDR: I appreciate your comments. You’re one of the posters I respect, knowledgeable comments and you conduct yourself well. I apologize if I’m a bit abrasive from time to time.

I completely support a flat tax as a percentage of change in wealth with ZERO avoidance.

I have no idea how to get there given the accounting games and utter alchemy introduced into our financial system in the past 30 years. Nor do I have much confidence in the political will of congress and our states to institute reform.

What I object to on this board and elsewhere, and I suspect the majority of people in this country object to, is this steady right-wing drumbeat of propoganda, and in this particular case suggesting that any change to tax policy is socialism.

Across the board — federal and state governments, counties, municipalities, institutions, agencies, corporations — we are on the brink of insolvency, if not outright bankruptcy. The economic issues, currency failure, has become a national security matter now.

You simply CANNOT have government, roads, sewers, schools, police, firefighters, wars and national defense, homeland security, safe food, clean water, a fraud-free financial system — WITHOUT PAYING FOR IT. There is room to debate what programs should be funded. But you must pay for it.

The status quo has evolved to a point where it pays for it by taxing the middle class disproportionately. Wealthy individuals and big corporations DO NOT pay tax at the SAME RATE as average people. THEY PAY LESS.

Or increasingly, it moves the costs off-books by borrowing the funds against our children. If it were public-sector investment it would be okay, but it’s not. We’re mortgaging our kids future to finance the operating needs of government. It’s disgusting.

All this noise about socialism and how democrats want to take all your money and give it to black people who don’t work is insidious republican horseshit. And you know damn well that’s the underlying message.

We need to collectively quit LYING and start conducting ourselves with some semblance of responsibility and honor because we have big problems right now.

[gandalf]

Things have veered too far to the right in this country, and the majority is in the process of reasserting control, taking issues back to center. Enough is enough.

SDR: I appreciate your comments. You’re one of the posters I respect, knowledgeable comments and you conduct yourself well. I apologize if I’m a bit abrasive from time to time.

I completely support a flat tax as a percentage of change in wealth with ZERO avoidance.

I have no idea how to get there given the accounting games and utter alchemy introduced into our financial system in the past 30 years. Nor do I have much confidence in the political will of congress and our states to institute reform.

What I object to on this board and elsewhere, and I suspect the majority of people in this country object to, is this steady right-wing drumbeat of propoganda, and in this particular case suggesting that any change to tax policy is socialism.

Across the board — federal and state governments, counties, municipalities, institutions, agencies, corporations — we are on the brink of insolvency, if not outright bankruptcy. The economic issues, currency failure, has become a national security matter now.

You simply CANNOT have government, roads, sewers, schools, police, firefighters, wars and national defense, homeland security, safe food, clean water, a fraud-free financial system — WITHOUT PAYING FOR IT. There is room to debate what programs should be funded. But you must pay for it.

The status quo has evolved to a point where it pays for it by taxing the middle class disproportionately. Wealthy individuals and big corporations DO NOT pay tax at the SAME RATE as average people. THEY PAY LESS.

Or increasingly, it moves the costs off-books by borrowing the funds against our children. If it were public-sector investment it would be okay, but it’s not. We’re mortgaging our kids future to finance the operating needs of government. It’s disgusting.

All this noise about socialism and how democrats want to take all your money and give it to black people who don’t work is insidious republican horseshit. And you know damn well that’s the underlying message.

We need to collectively quit LYING and start conducting ourselves with some semblance of responsibility and honor because we have big problems right now.

[Author]

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