OT: Jeremy Lin

[Allan from Fallbrook]

[quote=poorgradstudent]Leaving race out of it, it’s pretty exciting to see some Harvard grad totally school Kobe. I hate Kobe. So hard.[/quote]

PGS: Not just Kobe, but Fisher, too. Lin made Fisher look like a total clown out there. As much as I despise Kobe, I’ve always liked Fisher, especially his work ethic. Lin had him totally on his heels. He was probably also discussing Kantian ethics and dialectical materialism at the same time, you know, being from Hah-vahd and all.

[ocrenter]

[quote=flu]You know I posted something nastier earlier that I deleted.

but I will say this.

Chinese people get routinely screwed because they end up screwing themselves through their divisive screwed up thought process of trying to screw a fellow chinese person over just because they are from a different country and because of their culturally inherent nature to think that they are better than the other chinese dude next to them…

You don’t see the same thing among koreans or among japanese… Think about that one.[/quote]

problem is lack of respect of other’s nationality. there’s nothing wrong with pan-Chinese love. just like pan-Arab or pan-Hispanic or pan-Anglo. But nobody else disrespect each other’s country or claim it as their own.

[Dukehorn]

Look, he identifies himself as Taiwanese American. Enough said, that’s his own ethnic identity. A number of my friends identify themselves at Taiwanese American and it’s actually quite the insult to call them “Chinese”. Asian American is definitely a better choice.

The Koreans and Japanese didn’t have the diaspora that the Chinese have so it’s not a great comparison.

[briansd1]

[quote=4slive]Correction. Taiwanese is part of Chinese. There is no nation called Taiwan, we only know Repulbic of China is on Taiwan island.[/quote]

I have to agree with this, especially under international law.

It’s changing somewhat now, but ROC, especially under the KMT, has always claimed to represent all of China, including the mainland. In essence, they claimed to be the rightful government of all of China, with the PRC as the “breakaway” region.

If Taiwan wanted to become independent, they should have done so back in the 1950s. Too late for that now.

I don’t see the problem with calling someone Taiwanese, just like calling someone Californian or New Yorker. But a Taiwanese is Chinese. Of course, people can choose what they wish to be called.

[ocrenter]

[quote=briansd1][quote=4slive]Correction. Taiwanese is part of Chinese. There is no nation called Taiwan, we only know Repulbic of China is on Taiwan island.[/quote]

I have to agree with this, especially under international law.

It’s changing somewhat now, but ROC, especially under the KMT, has always claimed to represent all of China, including the mainland. In essence, they claimed to be the rightful government of all of China, with the PRC as the “breakaway” region.

If Taiwan wanted to become independent, they should have done so back in the 1950s. Too late for that now.

I don’t see the problem with calling someone Taiwanese, just like calling someone Californian or New Yorker. But a Taiwanese is Chinese. Of course, people can choose what they wish to be called.[/quote]

brian, the ROC no longer claim China. there was an amendment to the constitution changing the national territory to Taiwan and couple of offshore islands.

And if California is an independent country with its own military and diplomatic missions, I would agree with you. Last time I checked that has not been the case.

So no, a Taiwanese is a Taiwanese. a Chinese is a Chinese.

[ocrenter]

all of this Chinese vs Taiwanese sensitivities is from psychological complexes.

Chinese have an inferiority complex from the years of foreign domination. They look at the Taiwan situation from a pure racial disgrace stand point. meaning they see Taiwan’s separation from China as a consequence of foreign manipulation and Chinese weakness of yesteryears. Therefore, at every opportunity, including this thread about a basketball breakout, they will try to squish down anything that potentially point to the separateness of the two countries.

Taiwanese also have a complex. Because of constant Chinese pressure in regard to Taiwanese sovereignty, Taiwanese tend to guard against any possible infringement of that sovereignty, down to getting mad if someone call them Chinese instead of Taiwanese.

My take on this is when China finally grow up as a nation (it is in its teenager phase with its rapid development), hopefully its citizens will be more mature and shed their inferiority complex. if a group of people feel confident, they would not be so reliant on delusional claims on other people’s country. Then the Taiwanese complex would go away as well.

If the two countries have normal relations as fellow ethnic brother nations, then I do not see how there would be any barriers to the type of pan-ethnic Chinese love fest flu was hoping for.

[briansd1]

[quote=ocrenter]
brian, the ROC no longer claim China. there was an amendment to the constitution changing the national territory to Taiwan and couple of offshore islands.
[/quote]

Yeah, but that was after ROC lost international recognition.

Until 1971, ROC held the UN seat for all of China, a tacit admission that are Chinese.

When the US recognized the PRC as the rightful government of China, America recognized PRC sovereignty over Taiwan.

[quote=ocrenter]
So no, a Taiwanese is a Taiwanese. a Chinese is a Chinese.[/quote]

I don’t know, ocrenter. I have a close Taiwanese friend whose family is originally from Taiwan for many generations. She’s OK with being called Chinese.

Her brothers and cousins are all doing business in China, so she said, they might as well be Chinese.

But she doesn’t buy anything made in China and is not fond of mainland culture, haha.

It could be like Sicilians not wanting to be called Italians, but they are Italians in the eyes of the world.

[Coronita]

[quote=Dukehorn]Look, he identifies himself as Taiwanese American. Enough said, that’s his own ethnic identity. A number of my friends identify themselves at Taiwanese American and it’s actually quite the insult to call them “Chinese”. Asian American is definitely a better choice.

The Koreans and Japanese didn’t have the diaspora that the Chinese have so it’s not a great comparison.[/quote]

please, you don’t have north koreans saying “I’m not korean, I’m north korean” or the south koreans saying “I’m not korean, I’m south korean”.

I don’t have an issue with Jeremy saying he’s TW American.

But it’s just kinda funny some folks on this thread started to get all huffy and puffy about this. There was some ridiculous video going from some folks from taiwan that was saying that when filling out applications, don’t check the “Chinese” ethnicity box, but instead check “other asian”… WTF????

And Brian, no sorry Taiwan is not part of China. two separate systems, completely.

[Coronita]

[quote=ocrenter]all of this Chinese vs Taiwanese sensitivities is from psychological complexes.

Chinese have an inferiority complex from the years of foreign domination. They look at the Taiwan situation from a pure racial disgrace stand point. meaning they see Taiwan’s separation from China as a consequence of foreign manipulation and Chinese weakness of yesteryears. Therefore, at every opportunity, including this thread about a basketball breakout, they will try to squish down anything that potentially point to the separateness of the two countries.

Taiwanese also have a complex. Because of constant Chinese pressure in regard to Taiwanese sovereignty, Taiwanese tend to guard against any possible infringement of that sovereignty, down to getting mad if someone call them Chinese instead of Taiwanese.

My take on this is when China finally grow up as a nation (it is in its teenager phase with its rapid development), hopefully its citizens will be more mature and shed their inferiority complex. if a group of people feel confident, they would not be so reliant on delusional claims on other people’s country. Then the Taiwanese complex would go away as well.

If the two countries have normal relations as fellow ethnic brother nations, then I do not see how there would be any barriers to the type of pan-ethnic Chinese love fest flu was hoping for.[/quote]

You know the irony behind this sort of taiwanese complex is that… Well, you know I hate to say this. But at least China didn’t hand the keys over to Japan and subject themselves to Japanese rule like Taiwan did. Talk about slave mentality. China at least had the balls to fight (albeit not very well).

Why do you think when the tsunami/earthquake hit and despite Taiwan donated a significant portion of economic aid to Japan, not a single recognition from Japan but instead thanked China??? Japan looks down at Taiwan. Because they view Taiwan as a bunch of ass kissers. Old japan will never respect Taiwan for that reason. ever. All this ranting against Japan revisionism during WWII and the war crimes isn’t really being pushed from Taiwan now is it? Where’s the dignity in that??

Yeah, flame on… But before you do, half my family is native TW and the other half came over with the KMT and army.

It’s not going to matter really much so. You’re going to end up doing business among both countries anyway so why bother fighting over technicalities?

[ocrenter]

[quote=briansd1]
Until 1971, ROC held the UN seat for all of China, a tacit admission that are Chinese.

When the US recognized the PRC as the rightful government of China, America recognized PRC sovereignty over Taiwan.
[/quote]

America acknowledges PRC claim over Taiwan, but soverneignty is based on facts on the ground. You can’t remove on the ground reality and sovereignty with international political tic for tac. Even when the ROC had international recognition, and PRC did not, you can’t say PRC did not exercise sovereignty over China.

[quote=briansd1]

I don’t know, ocrenter. I have a close Taiwanese friend whose family is originally from Taiwan for many generations. She’s OK with being called Chinese.

Her brothers and cousins are all doing business in China, so she said, they might as well be Chinese.

But she doesn’t buy anything made in China and is not fond of mainland culture, haha.

It could be like Sicilians not wanting to be called Italians, but they are Italians in the eyes of the world.[/quote]

there are plenty of folks in the world that switch nationalities. British immigrants to America after a few years here will start identifying as Americans. we see that with Canadian immigrants as well. Did Peter Jennings identify more as an American or as a Canadian? more likely as an American. your example of Taiwanese that moved to China to do business is the same thing.

and I really don’t get you with these weird analogies. First you think California has an independent standing army. Now you think Sicily issues its own passport.

I’m starting to think when you heard Lin is Taiwanese you thought he was from Thailand.

[briansd1]

[quote=ocrenter]
there are plenty of folks in the world that switch nationalities. British immigrants to America after a few years here will start identifying as Americans. we see that with Canadian immigrants as well. [/quote]

Just to clarify things here…. Jeremy Lin can be called whatever he wants and we should respect his personal wishes, just like some people want to be called Michael and not Mike.

But I don’t see the big deal with other people at large saying that Jeremy Lin is Chinese.

[ocrenter]

[quote=flu]
You know the irony behind this sort of taiwanese complex is that… Well, you know I hate to say this. But at least China didn’t hand the keys over to Japan and subject themselves to Japanese rule like Taiwan did. Talk about slave mentality. China at least had the balls to fight (albeit not very well).

Why do you think when the tsunami/earthquake hit and despite Taiwan donated a significant portion of economic aid to Japan, not a single recognition from Japan but instead thanked China??? Japan looks down at Taiwan. Because they view Taiwan as a bunch of ass kissers. Old japan will never respect Taiwan for that reason. ever. All this ranting against Japan revisionism during WWII and the war crimes isn’t really being pushed from Taiwan now is it? Where’s the dignity in that??

Yeah, flame on… But before you do, half my family is native TW and the other half came over with the KMT and army.

It’s not going to matter really much so. You’re going to end up doing business among both countries anyway so why bother fighting over technicalities?[/quote]

I figured you would pull out the Japan card. Because everyone look at Taiwanese independence through that anti-Japan complex.

The fact is Taiwanese independence of yesteryears was truly filled with folks who were Japanese sympathisers. But that’s about 20 years behind. These days everyone in Taiwan are essentially for Taiwanese independence, even the pan-blue folks. To chose the status quo is to chose Taiwanese independence, because the status quo is independence. The era of equating the independence movement with the legacy of Japan’s influence have been long over.

And as for Taiwanese handing over the keys. Please remember it was the Manchu’s that gave the Japanese the keys. The Manchurians. Talk about another foreign power. And here’s food for thought. How much resistence did the Chinese people put up against the foreign invasion and oppression from the Manchurians? How many Chinese took the bait and became Manchurian running dogs? Who ultimately crushed the first Taiwanese kingdom of Koxinga and handed it to the Manchus? A Han Chinese turncoat Manchu running dog admiral Shi Lang.

And who is honored as a cultural hero and as the namesake of China’s first aircraft carrier? Shi Lang. Yesterday’s turncoat is today’s hero. How ironic.

The Japanese strategy in Taiwan was the same as it was in Korea. Divide and conquer. They divided the population into essentially a caste system, with folks that were willing to assimilate as Japanese on the top. In Korea the same thing happened. Some of the top dogs in Korea today are the off springs of the same folks that were willing to be “Japanese” during the occupation.

But the difference is in Korea there was no KMT that came over to cleanse that group and stigmatize that group. In Taiwan’s case, the KMT cleansed that pro-Japanese group and instilled their own system of patronage. Is it truly that much more different? Not really. But what the KMT was able to do was to stigmatize the entire Taiwanese independence movement with the broad stroke and label it as pro-Japanese sympathisers. And now the Chinese from across the strait try to do the same.

I too am the product of Chinese ex-military KMT and Taiwanese parents. There is no need to flame you. Bottom line is the Japanese link is very old school and it is designed to give the KMT cover. The truth is if today there are no military threats from China and no Shi Lang aircraft carrier on deck, you and I both know what the people of Taiwan will overwhelmingly chose.

[ocrenter]

[quote=briansd1][quote=ocrenter]
there are plenty of folks in the world that switch nationalities. British immigrants to America after a few years here will start identifying as Americans. we see that with Canadian immigrants as well. [/quote]

Just to clarify things here…. Jeremy Lin can be called whatever he wants and we should respect his personal wishes, just like some people want to be called Michael and not Mike.

But I don’t see the big deal with other people at large saying that Jeremy Lin is Chinese.[/quote]

I suppose it would not be a big deal to call Schwarenegger German?

[outtamojo]

Gosh, and no one’s even mentioned the Jason Whitlock thing yet…..

[Anonymous]

[quote]I suppose it would not be a big deal to call Schwarenegger German?[/quote]

He would probably prefer Austrian to German.

But he’s probably used to it by now.

[Author]

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