OT: college; fear of debt

[scaredyclassic]

http://www.cslawschool.com/financial-information/tuition-and-fees/

law school, 7k a year.

many working lawyers in riv cty went there.

no one is laughing. many judges went there too…

check out the alumni list on the left of the tuition …

http://www.cslawschool.com/financial-information/tuition-comparison/

there’s a tuition comparison.

this school isn’t the low price leader though i dont think. there’s others like it.

if you really want to make it as an attorney…you will…regardless of the school.

[flyer]

And then, after all of this wonderful education, where will they find their “dream jobs?”

I’ve got to admit that, even though our kids graduated Ivy League, the great jobs they got all boiled down to a “who you know” situation–especially since they didn’t want to leave CA.

If your kids are open to moving elsewhere, it might be less challenging, but here, it’s beyond ultra competitive.

That’s just one more element of the equation.

[jwizzle]

[quote=squat250]http://www.cslawschool.com/financial-information/tuition-and-fees/

law school, 7k a year.

many working lawyers in riv cty went there.

no one is laughing. many judges went there too…

check out the alumni list on the left of the tuition …

http://www.cslawschool.com/financial-information/tuition-comparison/

there’s a tuition comparison.

this school isn’t the low price leader though i dont think. there’s others like it.

if you really want to make it as an attorney…you will…regardless of the school.[/quote]

I see three issues with something like this school:

(1) it’s a part time program, so on an apples-to-apples comparison to a full-time law program, it’s closer to $11k a year for tuition. Plus $700 per attempt to pass the baby bar

(2) my quick google search (since I admittedly have never heard of California Southern) informed me that in 2010, 3 of 33 people passed the bar. I found a link showing pass percentages (although not numbers, so this is a little misleading) – no one passed the first time in the July 2010 and 2011 exams. Between 1997 and 2007, only 32% of grads passed the bar (21% first try, 11% on repeat trys). And this is after the “hopeless” cases have theoretically been weeded out with the baby bar, which I have also heard is fairly hard.

(3) if you do manage to pass the bar, you will almost certainly be stuck practicing in California forever, since it’s not accredited and most other states do no permit people from non-ABA schools to sit for their bars.

These points pretty much apply to all non-accredited schools. To me, going to a non-accredited school is like putting $30k down on 00 on a roulette table. Maybe you are right that if someone wants to make it, they will, but the odds are really against you.

[Coronita]

[quote=flyer]And then, after all of this wonderful education, where will they find their “dream jobs?”

I’ve got to admit that, even though our kids graduated Ivy League, the great jobs they got all boiled down to a “who you know” situation–especially since they didn’t want to leave CA.

If your kids are open to moving elsewhere, it might be less challenging, but here, it’s beyond ultra competitive.

That’s just one more element of the equation.[/quote]

flyer,

Getting a dream job is always about “who you know”…. Once you hit a certain level, you’re not gonna land that dream job by apply from some HR listing. More importantly, it’s going to be about who knows you.

[flyer]

As usual, you’re absolutely right, flu.

I guess I was just trying to make the point that it seems many believe that the “ultimate education” will immediately transport their children to their desired destination, but it’s really much more complicated than that–because, as you have mentioned before–the competitiion is fierce–especially in CA.

For example, two of my kids acquired executive positions in the entertainment industry, just out of college (definitely their “dream jobs.”)

The competition was incredible–Ivy MBA’s like them at every interview–but, some friends in the industry came through, and it made all the difference.

So, I’m really just saying, that, from my experience, whatever your kid’s dream job turns out to be, it just might take more than a diploma to get them there.

[CA renter]

[quote=squat250]honors program. community college.

he can live in this nice house i spent so much money on.

we can enjoy his company for one more year.

transfer to uc riverside or san diego

he is more likely to fall in love with some local girl…

that’s my primary argument against going too far away. it increases the chances that you never come back…

i do not want anyone to go too far away.

in other words, remain in southern cal.[/quote]

My vote is for the JC route. Maybe my experience is different from that of other posters, but my whole family went the JC route. My dad got an MBA from a state college, mom graduated with honors from UCLA, and I got a teaching credential (two years post-grad) from a state college. I also have many, many friends and former co-workers who did the same thing. Nowhere on any of these degrees does it state that we did the first ~2 years at JCs. All of these people were successful, even though many didn’t pursue careers that matched their degrees.

I’ve asked high school counselors about this very topic, just to make sure I wasn’t missing anything, and they told stories about the ultra-competitive 4-year college/university application process and the stressed-out parents who are desperate to (unnecessarily) pay tens of thousands of dollars extra just so that little Johnny and Susie can enjoy “the dorm experience.” Not worth it, in most of their opinions.

Like a couple other posters have mentioned, if your child is going to apply to graduate schools or programs where it actually matters where they finished their first two years (very rare), and where there is a very high likelihood that they will be able to easily pay of any student loans in a short period of time, then go ahead and send them directly to a 4-year university.

All that being said, I do think it’s important to go to specific universities for some graduate/professional programs, and this is where the money should be spent…after they already have their 4-year degree from a local JC->UC/CSU. Just my 2 cents.

Best of luck to you!

[flyer]

In the case of my children, we learned through the grapevine that the competition for their positions was so stiff that they didn’t even grant interviews to anyone who didn’t have an MBA from an Ivy (of course, this was never overtly mentioned)–and we knew that before they attended college–so we planned accordingly.

As long as your children achieve their dreams in life–whatever path they take–that’s what really matters.

[spdrun]

that’s my primary argument against going too far away. it increases the chances that you never come back…

That’s his damn choice, no? Some people (including myself) are much happier in NYC, Boston, or Europe than they’d be in SoCal full-time. Let him explore the world.

Besides, if he’s pulling down $100-150k/yr, a $350 plane ticket 10x per year isn’t a big deal.

[scaredyclassic]

[quote=jwizzle][quote=squat250]http://www.cslawschool.com/financial-information/tuition-and-fees/

law school, 7k a year.

many working lawyers in riv cty went there.

no one is laughing. many judges went there too…

check out the alumni list on the left of the tuition …

http://www.cslawschool.com/financial-information/tuition-comparison/

there’s a tuition comparison.

this school isn’t the low price leader though i dont think. there’s others like it.

if you really want to make it as an attorney…you will…regardless of the school.[/quote]

I see three issues with something like this school:

(1) it’s a part time program, so on an apples-to-apples comparison to a full-time law program, it’s closer to $11k a year for tuition. Plus $700 per attempt to pass the baby bar

(2) my quick google search (since I admittedly have never heard of California Southern) informed me that in 2010, 3 of 33 people passed the bar. I found a link showing pass percentages (although not numbers, so this is a little misleading) – no one passed the first time in the July 2010 and 2011 exams. Between 1997 and 2007, only 32% of grads passed the bar (21% first try, 11% on repeat trys). And this is after the “hopeless” cases have theoretically been weeded out with the baby bar, which I have also heard is fairly hard.

(3) if you do manage to pass the bar, you will almost certainly be stuck practicing in California forever, since it’s not accredited and most other states do no permit people from non-ABA schools to sit for their bars.

These points pretty much apply to all non-accredited schools. To me, going to a non-accredited school is like putting $30k down on 00 on a roulette table. Maybe you are right that if someone wants to make it, they will, but the odds are really against you.[/quote]

you will be stuck in CA forever probably, but that is a good thing, if you want your kid to stay in CA. CA is big, bold beautiful and diverse.

yes the odds of passing the bar are low statsistically, but that’s not a function of the school itself, it’s a function of who is going to the school.

Look– if you took the UC Hastings freshman class, put them on a bus, and sent them to this school, the bar pass rate would probably be very very close to what UC hastings’ pass rate is.

Theerstwhile hastings’ law first years could work p/t as a security guard, study nights, and maybe even have a higher pass rate, since at this “lesser” school they would actually be studying the actual subject matter on the bar exam, not waste time with “multiculturalism and the law” …or as I wasted time, with “ERISA law” and “mental health law”….

And have ZERO DEBT when it’s over…

it’s common for “lower” schools to focus on the meat and potatoes subjects (criminal procedure, evidence, wills and trusts, etc.) on the bar, while elite schools ignore the subject matter on the bar and study random shit. just to show how smart they are, they say their students will learn all the bar crap in the two month bar review course before the exam…whcih of course the goddamn STUDENT pays for… and never even take HALF the subjects ont he bar exam.

that was my experience…

am I right, JWIZZLE? of course im right, at least on this bar review bar prep bullshit. BARBRI was a few grand back in the 90’s. i just checked the website a few moments ago and saw it is $4135 today.

GOOD LORD, LAW STUDENTS OF AMERICA…is this a scam or what?

So if you know in your heart you are going to do whatever it takes to pass the bar, as I knew for an absolute certainty when i began law school, then you will pass, IF you have the mental horsepower (which i’d say is a 90% percentile on the LSAT and above–at least that puts it in the very good bet category).

the thing is, people with a 90% plus LSAt view themselves as “too smart” to go to this school.

but maybe they’re not as smart as they think.

look, I did substantially higher than a 90% plus LSAt score and went to a top 20 law school. But if I had it to do over again? no way. i’d go to ca southern–also keep in mind with my application, i’d probably get a free ride at this school too…

I disagree with you that p/t 7,000 school is the “same”as 11k full time, since many people can pull together 7k p/t per yearand pay as you go, but when you start to get much higher, you start accruing interest bearing debt.

for my own kid, I am absolutely certain if he went to this school, and wanted to pass the bar exam, he would pass the bar exam, if he wanted it…

[bearishgurl]

scaredy, I think the first/second time CA bar pass-rate is MUCH higher for those candidates who already have 20+ years work experience in the field. Most of these candidates would have attended (part time) the CalWesterns and ThomasJefferson’s of the world, close to their day jobs, methinks.

This has been my experience working with coworkers aged 40+ at the time of entering law school. They got out, took the bar exam, passed and paid off their small student debt while still on their “day jobs” (waiting to get hired as an attorney). Sometimes that took an additional three years or they ended up leaving their employer to take an attorney job at another firm if they felt it would be just as secure. Others stayed working at paralegals (with their JD’s and bar license in hand) in order to completely retire their law school debt.

It is much harder and takes much longer to retire large student loans today.

I’m with jwizzle that I wouldn’t spend any money at all on a non-ABA accredited school … not even a non-ABA accredited paralegal school. It’s not worth it and limits the graduate’s options as to where they can work, or, as a paralegal, where they can remain certified. A young graduate has their whole lives ahead of them and anything can happen.

No matter how “smart” a prospective law student/bar candidate might be or think they are (believe it or not, I think I could pass the bar on the first try :=0), there comes a time in one’s life where they have to realize their ship already sailed in this regard and thru a cost-benefit analysis come to the conclusion that they wouldn’t likely be able to recoup their investment in law school/barbri etc through working as an attorney. Practically speaking, and due to the dearth of job openings combined with rampant (legal) age discrimination, I think this cutoff age is about 45-47 years old in SD (the last possible age to be successfully hired as a *new* attorney). In most cases, the time and expense element of law school is just too great for mid-career adults who already have established family obligations.

And I don’t think its a wise business move for new attorneys to strike out on their own, esp in this economic climate.

[spdrun]

Most of the ones whom I know that did strike out on their own are doing better and are happier than before. Yeah, yeah, local differences. If you go to an ABA-accredited school, staying in CA isn’t mandatory.

Furthermore, establishing residency in a state that has a cheap public/accredited law school, then going to school there is another good option. Graduate with under $100k in debt, and you have a lot more options.

As far as age: a 45-47 year old will probably have a lot more connections that can be used to drum up business. Possibly even enough money saved to go to law school for cash, and kids out of the house. 40-something might actually be a good time to go to grad school and start a second career.

[bearishgurl]

[quote=flyer]As usual, you’re absolutely right, flu.

I guess I was just trying to make the point that it seems many believe that the “ultimate education” will immediately transport their children to their desired destination, but it’s really much more complicated than that–because, as you have mentioned before–the competitiion is fierce–especially in CA.

For example, two of my kids acquired executive positions in the entertainment industry, just out of college (definitely their “dream jobs.”)

The competition was incredible–Ivy MBA’s like them at every interview–but, some friends in the industry came through, and it made all the difference.

So, I’m really just saying, that, from my experience, whatever your kid’s dream job turns out to be, it just might take more than a diploma to get them there.[/quote]

I agree that “who” you know is very important, flyer. My kid(s) took their first job (semi-professional) from being interviewed several times by companies familiar with their college programs and who knew their dept head and instructors. Subsequent (professional) positions were offered to them from “who” they knew at the first job who defected to another company and wanted them aboard at the new company.

I ALSO believe my kid(s) success has just as much to do with their relocation to SF, establishing themselves over several years there and meeting many, many people along the way. There are ten times as many “professional positions” available at any given time there (incl SV) than in SD County. For a SD County resident who is a recent college grad, I feel they must be willing to relocate at the drop of a hat for a good position if they have moved “back home” after graduation. My kid(s) success ALSO comes from working throughout college and doing internships and so had plenty of work experience upon accepting their first “real job.”

My message to young local college graduates is to interview as much as possible out of county/state and relocate to take a job offered to you (especially if in your field) and don’t look back. At that point, you don’t know what your life will bring you. You could end up back in SD County at the age of 30, 40, 50 or 60+!

Too many local college graduates only want to work locally and don’t understand why they are waiting tables and shlepping parts at Pep Boys.

spdrun is right. TAKE THE GOOD JOB offered to you in your field, even if away from home! Plane tix are “cheap” and are the least of a recent grad’s worries at this point. Esp ones who have huge student loans looming! Believe it or not, there ARE airports in KS City, Tulsa, Birmingham, Talahassee, Cleveland and Des Moines. You can live CHEAP in those places while paying your student debt off!

[bearishgurl]

[quote=spdrun] . . . As far as age: a 45-47 year old will probably have a lot more connections that can be used to drum up business. Possibly even enough money saved to go to law school for cash, and kids out of the house. 40-something might actually be a good time to go to grad school and start a second career.[/quote]

Agree about the “connections” but am thinking of malpractice premiums, office space, worker’s comp prems, bus utils (in general, overhead). I don’t agree about “enough money saved to go to law school for cash.” Most of these para-professional workers don’t make a lot of money and are feeding their retirement accounts and even defined benefit plan accts every payday, not to mention pay some or all of the support of an entire family. A “40-something” still has minor children at home, that is, unless he/she was a very young parent. If that is the case, they likely don’t possess the college degree that one needs to be admitted to an ABA-approved law school.

It’s hard to see this map accurately when one is still young but life cycles can be a catch-22.

[spdrun]

Bearishgurl –

Assume a married couple. Two people working. One kid. Bought house in early 90ies. I could easily see saving $10-15k per year or more, plus having positive equity in the home. I’m guessing that not all people in SD County got burnt by the housing correction, right?

Office space isn’t expensive if you do it right. What a lot of small lawyers do here is quietly sublet space from a bigger firm with extra floor space. Worker’s comp isn’t needed if you’re self-employed or a single-person LLP in most states.

[bearishgurl]

[quote=spdrun]Married. Two people working. One kid. Bought house in early 90ies. I could easily see saving $10-15k per year, plus having positive equity in the home. I’m guessing that not all people in SD County got burnt by the housing correction, right?

Office space isn’t expensive if you do it right. What a lot of small lawyers do here is quietly sublet space from a bigger firm with extra floor space. Worker’s comp isn’t needed if you’re self-employed or a single-person LLP in most states.[/quote]

They do that here, too, and pay a fee to the larger firm for the use of their receptionist and other support staff, if needed.

A 45 year old would have been only 22-24 years old in the “early nineties.” If they’re just now entering law school, they would have had to have a college degree to be admitted. What were they doing in ’92, spdrun, going to college FT or buying RE??

For the avg non-trust-fund recipient, it is virtually unheard of to do both … simultaneously.

[Author]

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