OT: college; fear of debt

[spdrun]

Me, me, me ! My studies show that students in AZ wear 50% less clothing than students anywhere else.

That’s fine until most Zonies open the maws below their nostrils. Then you just want to kick them out of a moving car, and appreciate the lack of clothing for its road-rash potential.

[Coronita]

[quote=squat250]one way law school could make sense:

you just get an A.A. degree (you do NOT need a 4 year degree to sit for the bar in CA; check the rules); and then go to a super cheap small law school. say 8k a year. pay as you go and pass the bar.

if you’re debt free, you can maneuver better out there…graduating law school with zero debt could work out very well…

flu, if you tell that plan to other tiger parents, they will think you are super low class…[/quote]

Low Class? Pfff…. Not so concerned… Some tiger parents already think I’m low class. After all, my kid can’t do calculus yet…I failed as a parent… I must now hang my head in shame for the rest of my life….Then again, most of the judgemental tiger parents never went to an ivy league school themselves…

Actually, all we need to do is do what happens a lot overseas…You have a reowned tier one school, and you have a bunch of “similiar named” tier 2-3 schools…

For example, as you might know. I.I.T. is very very cream-of-the crop school in India. A few friends advised me one time while looking at resumes, that there were a few knockoff schools that had similar names…

So, I think all we need here…Is instead of Harvard…we can create an accredited school like “Havard”…Then when someone writes “Havard” on a resume, people just think it’s a typo for “Harvard”….

[Coronita]

Scardey…The other option is the following…

Wherever your kid goes to school, you buy a rental property there….Then you sublet a room or two to a roommate….

Hopefully, your kid doesn’t want to go to a school in NYC or SF.

[bearishgurl]

[quote=squat250]one way law school could make sense:

you just get an A.A. degree (you do NOT need a 4 year degree to sit for the bar in CA; check the rules); and then go to a super cheap small law school. say 8k a year. pay as you go and pass the bar.

if you’re debt free, you can maneuver better out there…graduating law school with zero debt could work out very well…

flu, if you tell that plan to other tiger parents, they will think you are super low class…[/quote]

scaredy, I looked into this about 11-12 years ago.

http://www.wslawschool.com/

At that time, WSLS (located in LM back then) was about $~18K or for tuition for all three years to law school (now it is ~$30K). At that time, a candidate could have submitted letters of recommendation from attorneys they worked for in lieu of a “bachelor’s degree” for admission purposes.

I decided against spending the money and time (until midnight 1-2 nights week), because, in real life, I could (seriously) successfully argue a motion before a judge w/my hands tied behind my back. But that wasn’t the point. The reality is, (at least here in SD) that no firm wants to hire an over-50 newly-minted lawyer (or “experienced” paralegal, for that matter). Among other concerns, their health insurance premium is much too high.

Regardless of how I feel about it, I have to accept reality.

******

I think it would be *difficult,* at best, for a young person to be able to be admitted to law school (even Western Sierra) on attorney recommendations alone. There is no way they’ve had the time to work long enough under attorney(s) to obtain the type of “recommendations” who would be sufficient to get them admitted into law school, IHMO.

On the surface, it “sounds good” that there are schools out there willing to take law school candidates without a bachelor’s degree. But the “experience requirement” for admission is a “catch 22” for the multitude of candidates that would actually apply to a school like this (20-somethings).

I think the window to be admitted to a school such as WSLS is about 35-40 years old, where the non-bachelor degree candidate is old enough to have ~15 years of experience in law firms but young enough to recoup their investment in law school by way of getting hired … hopefully immediately upon passing the bar exam.

[spdrun]

If you can graduate with little/no debt and have attorney recs, what’s wrong with going of-counsel for a small firm or two, as well as soliciting clients of your own soon after passing the bar?

[spdrun]

Hopefully, your kid doesn’t want to go to a school in NYC or SF.

I can’t speak to SF, but regarding NYC…

If you look hard enough, you can find a 3-bedroom apartment near Columbia for $300k. Same dealio with parts of Bklyn that are commutable to NYU, or even a 2-bedroom in parts of the East Village.

Taxes and maintenance $500-700/mo combined, no utilities other than electricity which may be included as well. Generally with income restrictions, but those can be in the mid-100s, and if the kid is officially buying it (perhaps via private mortgage), it’s doable.

NYC isn’t nearly as unaffordable as its reputation goes.

[enron_by_the_sea]

[quote=flu]

For example, as you might know. I.I.T. is very very cream-of-the crop school in India. A few friends advised me one time while looking at resumes, that there were a few knockoff schools that had similar names…

So, I think all we need here…Is instead of Harvard…we can create an accredited school like “Havard”…Then when someone writes “Havard” on a resume, people just think it’s a typo for “Harvard”….[/quote]

Btw there are at least two M.I.T.s in India too!

[bearishgurl]

[quote=spdrun]If you can graduate with little/no debt and have attorney recs, what’s wrong with going of-counsel for a small firm or two, as well as soliciting clients of your own soon after passing the bar?[/quote]

spdrun, in CA, the “of counsel” attorneys (who simply lend their [prestigious] names to a firm’s stationery, are usually current or former partners of a firm (now “retired”), who only “show up” when the firm needs counsel on certain subjects in certain cases. They also “counsel” other attorneys in the firm by phone.

In SD, the “of counsel” attorneys are overwhelmingly 70+ years old.

[jwizzle]

[quote=squat250]one way law school could make sense:

you just get an A.A. degree (you do NOT need a 4 year degree to sit for the bar in CA; check the rules); and then go to a super cheap small law school. say 8k a year. pay as you go and pass the bar.

[/quote]

scaredy, aren’t you a lawyer? IMR you graduated a while ago, but I imagine you know this: there is no such thing as an $8k a year law school that wouldn’t be laughed at by potential employer. Even Thomas Jefferson and Cal Western are insanely expensive – like $42k per year – and those barely make the cut as “real” schools (and what I mean by “real” is that you have at least a 50% chance of passing the bar and getting a job as a lawyer after graduation). I went to the highest ranked school in So. Cal., though, so I might be biased. And, even graduating at what I speculate was the bottom 40% of my class, I have a good-paying job. I graduated in 2006, which wasn’t the worst year ever, but did see a number of my friends get laid off during the down years in biglaw.

As far as seeing JC transcript, law schools absolutely do see them and grades you earned while at a JC. Not entirely sure if that makes a difference, but I do recall that about 5% of people from my graduating class came from CSU/SUNY schools. Roughly 80% came from Ivys/top tier UC schools (Cal, UCLA, or UCSD). Your undergrad matters.

I personally plan on pushing my kids to go to a 4 year school (preferably a UC, if it is still cheaper than private schools in 15+ years) because I think it makes a difference in how seriously they take school. I am also saving already so they don’t start buried in debt, although I do think they should have some skin in the game. Everyone in my husband’s family thinks we are crazy for saving and that kids should go to a JC first. But of the 7 kids/stepkids from his generation, all went to a JC for some period of time, none except my husband have degrees from a 4 year university, and only one makes over $50k a year, which is enough to make me ignore their admonitions that we will be wasting our money.

[spdrun]

bearishgurl – what’s the term for a specialist attorney that works closely with several firms as well on niche matters?

Two examples:
(1) A patent lawyer with engineering and math degrees from MIT, who also happens to speak six languages and advises firms on international intellectual property disputes.
(2) A 40-something lady who has a disabled kid and primarily stays home to take care of her family. But she also used to have a disability law firm when the child was younger, and still advises other firms on her area of expertise.

jwizzle – California has nothing like the City University of NY/Queens, where law school is something like $13k/yr if you’re a resident of NYC? Quite a few respected attorneys have come through there.

[bearishgurl]

[quote=spdrun]bearishgurl – what’s the term for a specialist attorney that works closely with several firms as well on niche matters?

Two examples:
(1) A patent lawyer with engineering and math degrees from MIT, who also happens to speak six languages and advises firms on international intellectual property disputes.
(2) A 40-something lady who has a disabled kid and primarily stays home to take care of her family. But she also used to have a disability law firm when the child was younger, and still advises other firms on her area of expertise…..[/quote]

spdrun, this is all well and good if it happens in NY…

In another vein, in the absence of “getting hired” by a firm, a newly-minted atty can’t “solicit” clients on their own w/o malpractice insurance already in place. Do you have any idea how much these premiums are??

And a new attorney starting out as a “sole practitioner” has to pay their first malpractice ins premium before they even start taking on their first client and collecting their first retainer fee!

[spdrun]

http://www.centralnewyorkinjurylawyer.com/2011/10/new-york-legal-malpractice-ins.html

About a grand a month for people I know. Interestingly, not required in NY nor CA if one wants to live dangerously 🙂

What does a specialist whose skills are needed by multiple firms, but are a small enough niche not to fill 40hr/wk in one firm do in CA? Or is that a trick question – “starve or move to the East Coast…”

I really want to like CA. It’s beautiful, has lots of outdoor stuff to do, some amazing people. The more I read this forum and talk to people out there, I more I feel that the small/freelance business climate is much more hostile (by custom, not necessarily by overt law) than in NYC.

[bearishgurl]

[quote=spdrun]http://www.centralnewyorkinjurylawyer.com/2011/10/new-york-legal-malpractice-ins.html

About a grand a month for people I know. Interestingly, not required in NY nor CA if one wants to live dangerously :)[/quote]

CA atty clients are VERY litigious (lol). Should we be surprised?

An attorney would be a fool to take on clients’ cases/problems without malpractice insurance in place. In skipping it, he/she would expose themselves (and possibly their families) to tremendous liability.

A large percentage of clients who come to attorneys for help have problems which were brought forward too late, the client did not follow the proper procedure to resolve it PRIOR to seeking legal counsel and/or are not completely fixable for a variety of reasons. The attorney has to decide what they can (now) do for the client (if anything) and if it is worth it for him/her and the client to pursue the problem at whatever juncture the client decided to pursue it.

These potential “cases” aren’t as “cut and dried” as they may seem.

[jwizzle]

[quote=spdrun]

jwizzle – California has nothing like the City University of NY/Queens, where law school is something like $13k/yr if you’re a resident of NYC? Quite a few respected attorneys have come through there.[/quote]

Not really. We have the UC system – Cal, UCLA, Irvine, Davis, and Hastings have law schools – but tuition is still $45k+ per year for CA residents (tuition has increased nearly 4-fold since I applied for law school in 2003!). It’s $10k-ish more for out of state residents. None of the Cal State schools have law schools. I actually know some attorneys who have come from CUNY, which would be a fantastic option in NY for someone looking to save money, assuming they lived in NY.

[spdrun]

Ouch. The other public law school nearby – Rutgers, is something like $34k (ex housing) for out-of-state and $20k for citizens of NJ.

As b0rked as people say that our local economies and government funding situation are, sounds like CA has it a lot worse in that respect.

[Author]

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