OT: college; fear of debt

[jwizzle]

I had never heard of that college (with an enrollment of 26, not a huge surprise), but I agree, it looks like an amazing school. As long as you can tolerate being nearly alone in the desert (which I totally could, minus the rattlesnakes). Although, since it’s only a 2-year college, you’ll still end up paying about the same (just slightly less) than going to a JC and transferring. But your transfer opportunities are certainly better.!

[spdrun]

To give some idea of the remoteness of the place – I considered applying in the 90s. The college’s phone # at the time was something like Deepsprings-9. No area code or 7-digit number, because all calls had to be routed via an AT&T operator in Nevada.

[scaredyclassic]

actually if i could go back and do it all over again, id do it all the same, id just worry a lot less and work harder.

[matt-waiting]

cslawschool and other unaccredited law schools like it are a disaster for most of the students who attend and never pass the bar (or baby bar). A degree from these schools certainty do not open any doors.

But if you want to roll the dice, hope that you are part of the 5% who passes the bar, and don’t want to work for a firm anyway, it could be a cheaper option.

[matt-waiting]

[quote=jwizzle][quote=squat250]

Basically, if my kids couldn’t or didn’t get into a T14 law school where they have a very good chance of getting a good paying job that can comfortably service the debt/pay it off at an accelerated rate (and make valuable connections that will help them throughout their career), I would tell them they should reconsider law school.[/quote]

I agree with this, but would expand it to the top 40 schools. UC Davis, Hastings, and UCLA are still good enough to get a job.

[cvmom]

[quote=flyer]A friend found this article when checking out college info for his kids. Some of you might also find it interesting. . .

http://money.cnn.com/2012/09/27/pf/college/college-salary/index.html?iid=F_Jump%5B/quote%5D

Thanks, this was interesting

[jwizzle]

I would have said top 40 before 2008, but seeing how the crash affected even people from my school (no. 15… Can never quite jump that last spot to make t14!), I have reconsidered. I’ve just seen too many people that can’t find work or that really struggle. Ultimately I think the legal market at the time would determine my guidance, but I can’t imagine saying ‘go for it’ for anything below top 20 after seeing how the legal market has changed.

[scaredyclassic]

on the other hand. if you have zero debt and zero obligations after getting your degree. and you
w ant to be a lawyerand you’re willing to go anywhere. you’ll probably be able to make a living.

i mean, a guy graduates froma top ten school with 225,000 in total debt. he gets a job at a big firm say for two years. he hates it. he services his debt for two years, maybe pays it downa little. he’s still a couple hundred grand in the hole, and say he quits in year three, puzzled about what to do next.

is he, a graduate of a “good ” school, really ina better position than a guy who goes to a non aba school,graduates with no debt because he earned enough to pay his tuition as he goes, struggles to open up a small family/criminal/bankruptcy law pracice, but is making 75,000 a year in year 4, with no debt payments?

even in a screwed up legal market, is it completely plausible for a hustler to make 75-100k even if he’s a mediocre lawyer in 5 years or so?

yes, it’s plausible. way more liely in fact, than that the big firm guy from the big school will be at the same job 5 years out…

Id’d say the second guy i smore likely to hang in there and make it long termsyustainably than the first guy. hell, he’s way more liekly to beway ahead with some decent sized personal injury case in years 5-15.

ive got a buddy who had a one man shop who hit it very very big on one case. whcih never wouldve happened if he’d stuck around as an hourly toiling corporate type lawyer. by big I mean never work again big.

hell, if a law degree is worthless in general, wouldnt a b.a. also be worthless?

[CA renter]

I’m not a lawyer, and have absolutely no knowledge about how it all works, but scaredy’s posts make a lot of sense to me.

Not sure if that’s good or bad. 😉

[scaredyclassic]

the thing is, law, and colleges, have for so long been bound by “status” and “rank” and by trying to perceived by others as the best and brightest.

that brand value does have some value–when you talk to other lawyers, and you tell them you’re from a top school, they think immediately, here’s a smart guy. It also has a slight intimidation factor.

True also with college degrees. guy graduates from harvard you think, well, hell, he’s probably fairly clever. that’s translated into money and access to jobs for years.

the price one should be willing to pay to buy that status is not limitless. at a certain debt level it’s just a bad bad bet. even if you have the cash lying aboutstagnating, waiting to be applied to someprestigious degree, it still might be a poor use of funds.

However, a huge segment of society–including myself–has for a long time eschewed looking at educational investment as merely a dollars and cents investment. it gets all tied up with “the college experience”, with life-forming identity trips and finding yourself and your identity, and other intangibles, so that the value becomes harder and harder to pin down.

Kinda like real estate, but even worse, since the very future of your children may depend on the school you select! how can you be so low as to skimp on money!?

When you think it through, coldly, rationally, the education has value–like a house–but you need to think long and hard about what youre willing to pay for it and more improtant, to borrow for it–and not necessarily give up opportunities for low-price options that could turn out to be good strong financial decisions.

because our ego is involved, and our fear for our children’s future, this analysis is going to be very difficult to do in a cold manner. If emotion is involved in real estate purchases, then I submit that emotion squared is involved in college selection (and to some extent, law school selection).

[scaredyclassic]

counterpoint: my mom says they sent me to the best school they could, so i should do the same.

Also, with inflation, the fortune you borrow today will be pocket change ina decade, and you’ll still have the degree…

they cannot repossess your brain…or can they?

[scaredyclassic]

counter-counterproint; they don’t need to repossess your brain, stupid, because the lien they have against your brain is nondischargeable in bankruptcy.

[Coronita]

[quote=squat250]counter-counterproint; they don’t need to repossess your brain, stupid, because the lien they have against your brain is nondischargeable in bankruptcy.[/quote]

How many kids do you have? Because I really hope for sanity sake you don’t do this for every kid….

After college will be wedding expense you know…

[matt-waiting]

[quote=squat250]counterpoint: my mom says they sent me to the best school they could, so i should do the same.

Also, with inflation, the fortune you borrow today will be pocket change ina decade, and you’ll still have the degree…

they cannot repossess your brain…or can they?[/quote]

Ok, I think we have an agreement among all the lawyers on the board (did this actually happen?)

If your kid wants to become a lawyer, either he gets into a top 14 school or he goes to the cheapest law school he can find without acquiring debt. Then, after 3 short years, he can look forward to long hours of unfulfilled non-creative work.

[davelj]

[quote=squat250]the thing is, law, and colleges, have for so long been bound by “status” and “rank” and by trying to perceived by others as the best and brightest.

that brand value does have some value–when you talk to other lawyers, and you tell them you’re from a top school, they think immediately, here’s a smart guy. It also has a slight intimidation factor.

True also with college degrees. guy graduates from harvard you think, well, hell, he’s probably fairly clever. that’s translated into money and access to jobs for years.
[/quote]

I think the brand value only has any meaningful value at the beginning of one’s career. It helps open the first few doors. But after you’ve been at your profession for a decade or so… I don’t think your alma mater(s) count for much anymore – you’ve either done impressive stuff or you haven’t.

Having said that… humans are risk averse, and in hiring decisions they will often seek comfort in what a candidate “looks” like rather than what s/he’s actually done. For example, you’re probably not going to get fired for hiring the Harvard MBA almost no matter how bad the candidate turns out after the fact. So, many folks seek out the candidate who is least likely to make them look foolish, and this favors “resume-friendly” schools and work experience.

Interestingly, there was some academic research done several years back that concluded that the actual university that a person attended was generally less predictive of future success than the best university that person COULD have attended based on grades, test scores, etc. This makes sense to me.

The reason, after all, that a lot of Harvard MBAs (just to pick one example) tend to be successful in commerce is not because they attended Harvard, but rather because they were the type of person that could get accepted into the program in the first place. Obviously there are a lot of folks who are capable of going to the brand-name school who for various reasons don’t go that route… and turn out to be just as successful as they would have had they gone the brand route.

In the long run, however, all that really matters is your combination of ability, guile, work ethic, social skills, and, critically, luck. And luck plays a pretty damn big role.

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