My experience getting a dedicated EV TOU 2 electric meter with SDGE

[an]

[quote=patb]Why don’t you like the Chevy Volt or BMW i3, i8?

Also Tesla’s strategy is rapid battery change.

BTW, even with a standard 100 KW Tesla Charger, in 15 minutes,
you know that will add in 75 miles of range. I don’t know how far you drive at night, but you just need enough range to go home.[/quote]
I actually like the Volt/i3/i8. I would have much preferred a 5-series version of the i3/i8 than the Model S.

Tesla’s rapid battery change is a great idea, but I think it’ll only work if all the EV cars today and future uses the same battery. Else, it cannot scale. Today, all ICE cars uses the same gas. With FCV, all FCV cars will be refueled the same way. It can also be done as quickly as you fueling up with gasoline.

100KW in 15 minutes is good, but still not good enough. Now, if they can charge 300KW in 5 minutes, then we’re talking. I personally do road trip about 4-5 times a year to see the in-laws. They’re about 350 miles away. I also HATE LA traffic, so I usually start driving around 7-8PM and get there at 12-1AM. I don’t have to stop for gas in my MDX. I actually get make it there and still have about 1/4 tank left. I also drive to Mammoth and Tahoe for snowboarding trip. I also drives to San Jose to see family sometimes, also leaving SD around 7PM-ish. Model S and EV cars today can’t serve that need. Maybe 5-10 years from now, they can, but by then, they not only have to compete with ICE vehicles, but also FCV. I personally don’t care which will win out.

[patb]

if you like the volt, realize the volt will likely be a key part of GM’s platform in 5 years. the Cadillac ELR is using the VOLTEC drive train, in 5 years, i suspect
GM will have extended that into escalades, Sierra’s, etc..

Toyota is continuing to grow the Hybrid Synergy drive. I suspect in 5 years
all of Toyota’s platforms will have a hybrid option and many of them will have
a Plug in option with a range of 20 Miles electric.

as for the Tesla, not every car has to use the Tesla battery, so much as they have to have a removable pack that’s mechanically compatible to Tesla.

Or what’s going to happen is you will see little small range extension trailers
for EV’s that have to take the occasional long road trip. When the EV-1 came out the engineers rigged little generators on 2 wheel carts so they could ferry to the test track. I suspect as EV’s get bigger, Level 3 charging, battery swap and the towed trailer will all add to the choice matrix.

I’m not sure why you are so down on Battery, but it would seem you are a better client for a Volt, a C-Max Energi or any of the EREV hybrids, so why not get one of those?

[an]

[quote=patb]if you like the volt, realize the volt will likely be a key part of GM’s platform in 5 years. the Cadillac ELR is using the VOLTEC drive train, in 5 years, i suspect
GM will have extended that into escalades, Sierra’s, etc..

Toyota is continuing to grow the Hybrid Synergy drive. I suspect in 5 years
all of Toyota’s platforms will have a hybrid option and many of them will have
a Plug in option with a range of 20 Miles electric.[/quote]I am fully aware of plug-in hybrid tech and I personally think they’re more ready for prime time than 100% EV as it stands today.

[quote=patb]as for the Tesla, not every car has to use the Tesla battery, so much as they have to have a removable pack that’s mechanically compatible to Tesla.

Or what’s going to happen is you will see little small range extension trailers
for EV’s that have to take the occasional long road trip. When the EV-1 came out the engineers rigged little generators on 2 wheel carts so they could ferry to the test track. I suspect as EV’s get bigger, Level 3 charging, battery swap and the towed trailer will all add to the choice matrix.[/quote]Removable pack is the same as removable battery. Also, do you see how limiting that is in term of packaging compare to FCV and ICE? Model S and Model X are wide and big. If you want to have EV replace ICE, you also have to have cars the size of Fit/Yaris/etc. The space and packaging is very different between those two size of cars.
[quote=patb]I’m not sure why you are so down on Battery, but it would seem you are a better client for a Volt, a C-Max Energi or any of the EREV hybrids, so why not get one of those?[/quote]I’m not down on battery, just 100% EV as it is today. I like plug-in hybrid idea better. As for why I don’t buy the cars you listed, well, they’re all ugly and slow. Until they come out with a i8 like cars in a 5-series E-class type of cars, I’m not interested. The 2 front runner for my next car is a C63 AMG or a E63 AMG, just to give you an idea the type of car I’m interested in. I would have loved to have a Model S P85 with a 400 miles range and can be fully recharged w/in 10-15 minutes from either any outlet or have a charging station as widespread as gas station, but that doesn’t exist.

I also haven’t even touched on the fun cars like the GT-R/911/Corvette/etc. This is why I don’t see EV taking over as it stands today. Which is also why I’m more excited about FCV. FCV seems to have the advantage of refueling of gasoline, but has the power delivery advantage of an EV. Now, if they can get the cost down on those.

[scaredyclassic]

anyone want to buy a 1998 camry with 200,000 miles that needs a timing belt, is leaking oil about 1 qt per week, needs brakes, new battery, maybe an alternator (but i don’t think so); wife wants new mini cooper….

I’m willing to let it go, maybe….

[CDMA ENG]

[quote=patb][quote=joec]What about the concern that replacing all these batteries for ALL these cars would be expensive and a total pain after 5 years?

Like how your cell phone or wireless headphones or pretty much anything won’t keep a charge anymore after a certain amount of time. It could cost 10k to replace the batteries on the Tesla.

That’s one of my biggest concerns with owning one of these EV vehicles, even the cheaper ones.

Even with costs coming down, it’s still so much more than the $50-$100 standard car bat.[/quote]

people said that about Hybrid cars too. It didn’t happen.[/quote]

It will…

Battery technologies have made huge leaps in the last 15 years but one thing still remains…

They eventually fail.

Sometimes spectacuarly…

CE

[joec]

http://auto.howstuffworks.com/fuel-efficiency/vehicles/lithium-ion-battery-car2.htm

http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1078138_toyota-hybrid-battery-replacement-cost-guide

From these articles, the old Prius NiMH batteries are much cheaper (probably 2k – 5k or so) compared to LIon. The other articles states cost of Lithium Ion at 4-5 times so you’re looking at 10-15k.

Maybe the 3k – 5k isn’t a lot for you, but if anyone wanted to lease a car instead of replacing a bat, there’s a car lease payment right there instead of replacing something. At least the old NiMH batteries do seem to be lasting well, I give you that.

For the newer tech Lithium, there is concern with limited recharges, constant discharges, etc…

Maybe like with those Eneloop batteries, maybe the NiMH tech is just so much more mature to have limited discharge as well as many charge cycles compared to Lithium.

[patb]

AN

“I am fully aware of plug-in hybrid tech and I personally think they’re more ready for prime time than 100% EV as it stands today.”

True dat, Right now EVs are at the same place in the Learning curve
Hybrids were in 97-03. Remember the hybrids of that era? Insight,
Prius and GM had recently shutdown the EV-1.

The Prius 1 was ugly, small and underpowered and cost $5K more then
a standard tercel and was losing $10K/unit for toyota.

The Insight 1 was a 2 seater, underpowered and looked like a wind up toy.

Okay, But engineering was pushed, mechanics learned about them,
and now the Prius Synergy drive undergirds the Toyota line from Prius to the Highlander and hybrid sales are now over 50% of Lexus unit volume.

Honda has been pushing the Hybrid up into the Civic, Accord,,,

I got a 2010 insight and it’s a lovely car. A little pricy on maintenance,
but it does just about everything i ever want and drives great.
I average 47 MPG.

The issue for EV’s is the battery price curve won’t be there until 2020, at which
point, EVs will be on the same place on the curve Hybrids were.

You like the Tesla S, right now the High Speed charger is 100 KW, they are working on a 250 KW charger, which will let you put 400 miles into the battery in half an hour. Seems nutty to me, but, then again the 100 KW charger did too.

I think Tesla has set the bar for high end and they are seriously getting traction amongst upscale buyers.

Right now EVs are upscale purchases, same as Solar and other green tech, but, it’s moving along.

[Coronita]

[quote=CDMA ENG][quote=patb][quote=joec]What about the concern that replacing all these batteries for ALL these cars would be expensive and a total pain after 5 years?

Like how your cell phone or wireless headphones or pretty much anything won’t keep a charge anymore after a certain amount of time. It could cost 10k to replace the batteries on the Tesla.

That’s one of my biggest concerns with owning one of these EV vehicles, even the cheaper ones.

Even with costs coming down, it’s still so much more than the $50-$100 standard car bat.[/quote]

people said that about Hybrid cars too. It didn’t happen.[/quote]

It will…

Battery technologies have made huge leaps in the last 15 years but one thing still remains…

They eventually fail.

Sometimes spectacuarly…

CE[/quote]

I have a lot of hope for LifePo4 batteries instead of LiIon batteries.

From little of what know from about them, LifePo4 seems to be chemically more stable, unlike LiIon batteries which are subject to thermal runaway, probably make better sense to put them in vehicles versus LiIon. Unfortunately, I don’t think LifePo4 don’t have as much capacity as LiIon I think, and if you drain them completely, they become expensive paperweights. To be honest, I know nothing about battery technology. But, I’ve been exploring ways to reduce weight in my miata, so I learned about LiFePO4. I stuck this 2.8 lb motorcycle battery

…. to replace this battery 28 lb battery that was already smaller than a standard size one ….

The nice thing, is it’s tiny enough and weighs so little that I can move the battery from the trunk to sit right behind my passenger seat next to the ECU….

I was curious why Tesla or Boeing for that matter decided to go with LiIon instead of LiFePO4… But then again, I’m sure there is a good reason for it so, I won’t second guess the experts in the field on this.

[afx114]

Tesla’s working on a system to swap out the entire battery system in less time than it takes you to pump a tank of gas: http://www.teslamotors.com/batteryswap

Watch the video, pretty interesting. Imagine your charge is running low — you simply drive up to a replacement station (similar to how gas engines force you to drive to a gas station), get new batteries, and are back on the road in under 90 seconds. Granted, you’d need plenty of replacement stations within range, but that’s the eventual goal.

So imagine the consumer being able to offload battery replacement/wear/degradation/maintenance to GiantBatteryCo(tm). As the batteries get swapped, GiantBatteryCo(tm) can run diagnostics on each pack and fix/replace/recycle as needed in a centralized location/process. The EV consumer no longer needs to worry about batteries in the same way that combustion engine consumers no longer need to worry about oil extraction/refining.

Batteries are one of the biggest sticking points for EVs, but if you remove those from the equation, it changes the outlook quite a bit.

[an]

[quote=afx114]Tesla’s working on a system to swap out the entire battery system in less time than it takes you to pump a tank of gas: http://www.teslamotors.com/batteryswap

Watch the video, pretty interesting. Imagine your charge is running low — you simply drive up to a replacement station (similar to how gas engines force you to drive to a gas station), get new batteries, and are back on the road in under 90 seconds. Granted, you’d need plenty of replacement stations within range, but that’s the eventual goal.

So imagine the consumer being able to offload battery replacement/wear/degradation/maintenance to GiantBatteryCo(tm). As the batteries get swapped, GiantBatteryCo(tm) can run diagnostics on each pack and fix/replace/recycle as needed in a centralized location/process. The EV consumer no longer needs to worry about batteries in the same way that combustion engine consumers no longer need to worry about oil extraction/refining.

Batteries are one of the biggest sticking points for EVs, but if you remove those from the equation, it changes the outlook quite a bit.[/quote]
I read up on this proposal, but as I said earlier unless all electric cars uses the same battery design for all kinds of cars, so that any EV can go into this battery swapping station and swap out their battery, I don’t see it feasible to have a lot of these battery swapping station, due to the fact that there’s not a lot of Tesla cars out there. With gas, any car can go and refuel. In order for EV to replace ICE, it needs to solve that problem too. This is one of the reason why I’m more optimistic about FCV than EV as a long term solution of replacing ICE cars.

[earlyretirement]

[quote=AN][quote=afx114]Tesla’s working on a system to swap out the entire battery system in less time than it takes you to pump a tank of gas: http://www.teslamotors.com/batteryswap

Watch the video, pretty interesting. Imagine your charge is running low — you simply drive up to a replacement station (similar to how gas engines force you to drive to a gas station), get new batteries, and are back on the road in under 90 seconds. Granted, you’d need plenty of replacement stations within range, but that’s the eventual goal.

So imagine the consumer being able to offload battery replacement/wear/degradation/maintenance to GiantBatteryCo(tm). As the batteries get swapped, GiantBatteryCo(tm) can run diagnostics on each pack and fix/replace/recycle as needed in a centralized location/process. The EV consumer no longer needs to worry about batteries in the same way that combustion engine consumers no longer need to worry about oil extraction/refining.

Batteries are one of the biggest sticking points for EVs, but if you remove those from the equation, it changes the outlook quite a bit.[/quote]
I read up on this proposal, but as I said earlier unless all electric cars uses the same battery design for all kinds of cars, so that any EV can go into this battery swapping station and swap out their battery, I don’t see it feasible to have a lot of these battery swapping station, due to the fact that there’s not a lot of Tesla cars out there. With gas, any car can go and refuel. In order for EV to replace ICE, it needs to solve that problem too. This is one of the reason why I’m more optimistic about FCV than EV as a long term solution of replacing ICE cars.[/quote]

I haven’t read this thread (or the board for that matter) as I’ve been crazy busy. But I thought I’d take the time to post a follow up post. I still LOVE driving the car as much as when I got it. It’s been perfect with no problems (or fires..haha).

As much as I love driving it, I don’t see this rapid battery swap happening any time soon. Like many things with Tesla, there is a lot of gimmicky type marketing. Read some of the serious TMC posts (http://www.teslamotorsclub.com) and you will read from people that know cars VERY well that this isn’t easy.

Plus, how will Tesla have the supply to have all of these batteries? I just don’t see it happening anytime soon (i.e. the next several years).

I absolutely love the technology and love love love driving the car. They are all over the place now. Just driving around Rancho Santa Fe the other day I saw 4 of them in the span of 15 minutes.

I was in at the San Diego Service Center the other day. And I asked the guy about it and he joked that RSF has TONS of owners. It’s one of their biggest zip codes he said for Tesla owners…

[flyer]

[quote=earlyretirement][quote=AN][quote=afx114]Tesla’s working on a system to swap out the entire battery system in less time than it takes you to pump a tank of gas: http://www.teslamotors.com/batteryswap

Watch the video, pretty interesting. Imagine your charge is running low — you simply drive up to a replacement station (similar to how gas engines force you to drive to a gas station), get new batteries, and are back on the road in under 90 seconds. Granted, you’d need plenty of replacement stations within range, but that’s the eventual goal.

So imagine the consumer being able to offload battery replacement/wear/degradation/maintenance to GiantBatteryCo(tm). As the batteries get swapped, GiantBatteryCo(tm) can run diagnostics on each pack and fix/replace/recycle as needed in a centralized location/process. The EV consumer no longer needs to worry about batteries in the same way that combustion engine consumers no longer need to worry about oil extraction/refining.

Batteries are one of the biggest sticking points for EVs, but if you remove those from the equation, it changes the outlook quite a bit.[/quote]
I read up on this proposal, but as I said earlier unless all electric cars uses the same battery design for all kinds of cars, so that any EV can go into this battery swapping station and swap out their battery, I don’t see it feasible to have a lot of these battery swapping station, due to the fact that there’s not a lot of Tesla cars out there. With gas, any car can go and refuel. In order for EV to replace ICE, it needs to solve that problem too. This is one of the reason why I’m more optimistic about FCV than EV as a long term solution of replacing ICE cars.[/quote]

I haven’t read this thread (or the board for that matter) as I’ve been crazy busy. But I thought I’d take the time to post a follow up post. I still LOVE driving the car as much as when I got it. It’s been perfect with no problems (or fires..haha).

As much as I love driving it, I don’t see this rapid battery swap happening any time soon. Like many things with Tesla, there is a lot of gimmicky type marketing. Read some of the serious TMC posts (http://www.teslamotorsclub.com) and you will read from people that know cars VERY well that this isn’t easy.

Plus, how will Tesla have the supply to have all of these batteries? I just don’t see it happening anytime soon (i.e. the next several years).

I absolutely love the technology and love love love driving the car. They are all over the place now. Just driving around Rancho Santa Fe the other day I saw 4 of them in the span of 15 minutes.

I was in at the San Diego Service Center the other day. And I asked the guy about it and he joked that RSF has TONS of owners. It’s one of their biggest zip codes he said for Tesla owners…[/quote]

Many of my neighbors in RSF do have Tesla’s. It is definitely the car of the moment. We have enough cars right now, but will definitely consider it in the future. Lots of good info here.

[CDMA ENG]

Well I could see a unified standard for all EVs in the future. It is the only thing that really makes sense for long haul travel.

Not just Teslas but all EVs.

I was involved in Solar Cars in College so I use to know something about these technologies, especially batteries and solar cells, but the technologies have passed me by.

SDDuuuude is more current then me. He has been building Bots for sometime and weight Vs. energy density was a huge consideration.

In college, SunRacye was the nothing but a huge experimental arena for todays EVs.

CE

[afx114]

The thing about Musk is, he’s not thinking 2-3-5-10 years ahead. He’s thinking 20-30-50-100 years ahead. I understand why that may not interest some (most) people.

[an]

[quote=afx114]The thing about Musk is, he’s not thinking 2-3-5-10 years ahead. He’s thinking 20-30-50-100 years ahead. I understand why that may not interest some (most) people.[/quote]His track record would say otherwise. But maybe this time is different. We’ll have to wait and see. He’s betting on EV. The entire auto industry are into hybrid, reduced weight, turbo smaller engines as a stop gap. They are divided between EV and FCV. Toyota have no plan to have any EV, but they’re pouring a lot of research $ into FCV for many years. We’ll see who’s right in 10 years. One of the two will turn out to be the Betamax of car tech. I’m rooting for FCV right now.

[Author]

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