Minority population grows into California majority

[kewp]

asianautica,

Hmmm, I will agree that I see a difference between the 2nd generation asian students vs. the ones from overseas along the lines you describe. I wonder if it will take the third-gen to become fat, lazy americans? ;).

Re: the depression, suicide connection. It’s a very real issue unfortunately:

http://www.news.cornell.edu/stories/April06/Chung.ksr.html

http://www.imdiversity.com/villages/asian/family_lifestyle_traditions/pns_pressure_depression_0805.asp

http://www.cnn.com/2007/HEALTH/05/16/asian.suicides/index.html

Oh, but you are. I’m sure most of the development done on Windows OS are done by Indian engineers and most of the CPU that run those OS are made in China.

Sorry, I’m a Unix guy. Proudly produced in New Jersey and California. By American’s (I’ve met most of them in fact!).

I think there is world of difference between a culture that encourages innovation vs. one of replication (not passing judgment either way). American seems to excel at the former at the expense of the latter where Asia is vice-versa. Toyota is a great example, Ford pioneered the personal automobile, where Toyota perfected the production and distribution of it.

The world is a better place for having both, of course.

As an aside, I think bringing Japan into the discussion is very interesting. Much of the griping I hear about China and India reminds me of what folks were saying about Japan when I was a youngster. Last I checked things didn’t exactly turn out in their favor. I suspect the average American enjoys a higher quality of life due to our respective countries relationship, vs. the average Japanese.

[kewp]

asianautica,

Hmmm, I will agree that I see a difference between the 2nd generation asian students vs. the ones from overseas along the lines you describe. I wonder if it will take the third-gen to become fat, lazy americans? ;).

Re: the depression, suicide connection. It’s a very real issue unfortunately:

http://www.news.cornell.edu/stories/April06/Chung.ksr.html

http://www.imdiversity.com/villages/asian/family_lifestyle_traditions/pns_pressure_depression_0805.asp

http://www.cnn.com/2007/HEALTH/05/16/asian.suicides/index.html

Oh, but you are. I’m sure most of the development done on Windows OS are done by Indian engineers and most of the CPU that run those OS are made in China.

Sorry, I’m a Unix guy. Proudly produced in New Jersey and California. By American’s (I’ve met most of them in fact!).

I think there is world of difference between a culture that encourages innovation vs. one of replication (not passing judgment either way). American seems to excel at the former at the expense of the latter where Asia is vice-versa. Toyota is a great example, Ford pioneered the personal automobile, where Toyota perfected the production and distribution of it.

The world is a better place for having both, of course.

As an aside, I think bringing Japan into the discussion is very interesting. Much of the griping I hear about China and India reminds me of what folks were saying about Japan when I was a youngster. Last I checked things didn’t exactly turn out in their favor. I suspect the average American enjoys a higher quality of life due to our respective countries relationship, vs. the average Japanese.

[Cow_tipping]

Unix guy here too. More CA than NJ though and freaking brilliantly I have managed to update myself very very very little in the last 15 years. I did the same damn thing 15 years ago at a different company supporting a different bank. Same shit, different flavor.
I also believe India and china are going the way of Japan soon. Their costs are rising (unless they are pegging to the dollar and choking themsleves)
Cool.
Cow_tipping.

[Cow_tipping]

Unix guy here too. More CA than NJ though and freaking brilliantly I have managed to update myself very very very little in the last 15 years. I did the same damn thing 15 years ago at a different company supporting a different bank. Same shit, different flavor.
I also believe India and china are going the way of Japan soon. Their costs are rising (unless they are pegging to the dollar and choking themsleves)
Cool.
Cow_tipping.

[Coronita]

I guess I could go work in Manhattan for a hedge fund and make six figures stealing money from old people, but to me immorality isn't something to be associated with a 'right mind'. Food for thought!

 

Food for thought: how's managing a hedge fund that takes/loses money from “investors” who willingly took the risk any different from folks here who sold homes to dumb buyers during the peek, knowing that the buyer(s) can’t afford the home and will eventually lose their home, only to buy it back dirt cheap??

[Coronita]

I guess I could go work in Manhattan for a hedge fund and make six figures stealing money from old people, but to me immorality isn't something to be associated with a 'right mind'. Food for thought!

 

Food for thought: how's managing a hedge fund that takes/loses money from “investors” who willingly took the risk any different from folks here who sold homes to dumb buyers during the peek, knowing that the buyer(s) can’t afford the home and will eventually lose their home, only to buy it back dirt cheap??

[Coronita]

asianautica, Hmmm, I will agree that I see a difference between the 2nd generation asian students vs. the ones from overseas along the lines you describe. I wonder if it will take the third-gen to become fat, lazy americans? ;). Re: the depression, suicide connection. It's a very real issue unfortunately: http://www.news.cornell.edu/stories/April06/Chung.ksr.html http://www.imdiversity.com/villages/asian/family_lifestyle_traditions/pn… http://www.cnn.com/2007/HEALTH/05/16/asian.suicides/index.html Oh, but you are. I'm sure most of the development done on Windows OS are done by Indian engineers and most of the CPU that run those OS are made in China. Sorry, I'm a Unix guy. Proudly produced in New Jersey and California. By American's (I've met most of them in fact!). I think there is world of difference between a culture that encourages innovation vs. one of replication (not passing judgment either way). American seems to excel at the former at the expense of the latter where Asia is vice-versa. Toyota is a great example, Ford pioneered the personal automobile, where Toyota perfected the production and distribution of it. The world is a better place for having both, of course. As an aside, I think bringing Japan into the discussion is very interesting. Much of the griping I hear about China and India reminds me of what folks were saying about Japan when I was a youngster. Last I checked things didn't exactly turn out in their favor. I suspect the average American enjoys a higher quality of life due to our respective countries relationship, vs. the average Japanese.

 

Actually, I think what you don't understand…some 1st generations went into engineering because it was the best opportunity for them. See, unlike most americans, most 1st immigrants from asia had to work their ass off to get over here. Second, once here, there's sort of a language gap/cultural gap. My observation about american workers is that for every 1 small thing they do, they bullshit about it by saying 10 things, no matter how simple it is. On the other hand, most asian immigrants I noticed would do 10 simply things and usually don't think it's that big a deal to even come up with 1 bullshit thing to say.

What you call lack of inspiration quite is commonly the issue with non-asian management who equate no bullshit 1st gen immigrants with lack of inspiration, particularly in a heavy bureacratic companies like defense companies.1st generation immigrants don't know how to play politics in the american company…Which is why some of them leave and go to competitor company from their native land. Why do you think companies like Huawei have been able to catch up to Cisco so quickly? Simple…Quick knowledge transfer. And it's going to get a lot worse.

Furthermore, speaking from relative's experience who were the 1st generation, those immigrants quickly learned that while doing a good job is important, salaries pretty much are there just to pay the bills…Most of the ones i grew up lived frugality to be able to stick their income into assets other means. And they have the intelligence to pull this off as opposed to your dipshit MBA worker. Most americans are lousy money managers and piss off whatever they earn, however much they earn. Wanna know why you see a lot of otherwise normal working class asians in Carmel Valley, LJ? Because they manage money better than your average american, even though they may make less.

As a 2nd generation, I have the work ethics of my previous generation, while also understanding the importance of "playing the game." So while detest people that have a 10:1 bullshit ratio, I myself play closer to 5:1 bullshit ratio so that I don't get screwed by a dipshit MBA dude. Plus I have all the cultural advantageous to bridge what gap with our satellite offices. And pretty much, being able to see through the 10:1 bullshitter, I won't hire those people regardless of what ethnic background they have..I also wouldn't be caught dead working in a heavily political company where the politics aren’t in my favor.. One reason why I would never work at a defense company is because when I interned there I found the job to be (1) boring (2) moved too slow (3) and run by too many bureacratic baffoons- more so than other companies in other tech fields and (4) the pay was crap. Plus i didn't like the idea of my future indirectly being dependent on how much the U.S. government wanted to spend on toys any given year…1st gen immigrants are pretty much more willing to put up with that crap…

Actually, one advantage of working for a defense company is that you'd have a greater chance of be laidoff due to a shrinking defense budget than being outsourced. Don’t believe me? Talk to folks that work in those big defense companies here in San Diego that are waiting for big contracts from the Gov lately.

As far as the third generation. Yeah, my kid will probably end up being fatter and lazier. I have to say, I’m not even close to the type of frugality of my parents….side affect of being raised here.

And lastly, I have nothing against caucasians. The few that made it into my engineering were brilliant and creative.

[Coronita]

asianautica, Hmmm, I will agree that I see a difference between the 2nd generation asian students vs. the ones from overseas along the lines you describe. I wonder if it will take the third-gen to become fat, lazy americans? ;). Re: the depression, suicide connection. It's a very real issue unfortunately: http://www.news.cornell.edu/stories/April06/Chung.ksr.html http://www.imdiversity.com/villages/asian/family_lifestyle_traditions/pn… http://www.cnn.com/2007/HEALTH/05/16/asian.suicides/index.html Oh, but you are. I'm sure most of the development done on Windows OS are done by Indian engineers and most of the CPU that run those OS are made in China. Sorry, I'm a Unix guy. Proudly produced in New Jersey and California. By American's (I've met most of them in fact!). I think there is world of difference between a culture that encourages innovation vs. one of replication (not passing judgment either way). American seems to excel at the former at the expense of the latter where Asia is vice-versa. Toyota is a great example, Ford pioneered the personal automobile, where Toyota perfected the production and distribution of it. The world is a better place for having both, of course. As an aside, I think bringing Japan into the discussion is very interesting. Much of the griping I hear about China and India reminds me of what folks were saying about Japan when I was a youngster. Last I checked things didn't exactly turn out in their favor. I suspect the average American enjoys a higher quality of life due to our respective countries relationship, vs. the average Japanese.

 

Actually, I think what you don't understand…some 1st generations went into engineering because it was the best opportunity for them. See, unlike most americans, most 1st immigrants from asia had to work their ass off to get over here. Second, once here, there's sort of a language gap/cultural gap. My observation about american workers is that for every 1 small thing they do, they bullshit about it by saying 10 things, no matter how simple it is. On the other hand, most asian immigrants I noticed would do 10 simply things and usually don't think it's that big a deal to even come up with 1 bullshit thing to say.

What you call lack of inspiration quite is commonly the issue with non-asian management who equate no bullshit 1st gen immigrants with lack of inspiration, particularly in a heavy bureacratic companies like defense companies.1st generation immigrants don't know how to play politics in the american company…Which is why some of them leave and go to competitor company from their native land. Why do you think companies like Huawei have been able to catch up to Cisco so quickly? Simple…Quick knowledge transfer. And it's going to get a lot worse.

Furthermore, speaking from relative's experience who were the 1st generation, those immigrants quickly learned that while doing a good job is important, salaries pretty much are there just to pay the bills…Most of the ones i grew up lived frugality to be able to stick their income into assets other means. And they have the intelligence to pull this off as opposed to your dipshit MBA worker. Most americans are lousy money managers and piss off whatever they earn, however much they earn. Wanna know why you see a lot of otherwise normal working class asians in Carmel Valley, LJ? Because they manage money better than your average american, even though they may make less.

As a 2nd generation, I have the work ethics of my previous generation, while also understanding the importance of "playing the game." So while detest people that have a 10:1 bullshit ratio, I myself play closer to 5:1 bullshit ratio so that I don't get screwed by a dipshit MBA dude. Plus I have all the cultural advantageous to bridge what gap with our satellite offices. And pretty much, being able to see through the 10:1 bullshitter, I won't hire those people regardless of what ethnic background they have..I also wouldn't be caught dead working in a heavily political company where the politics aren’t in my favor.. One reason why I would never work at a defense company is because when I interned there I found the job to be (1) boring (2) moved too slow (3) and run by too many bureacratic baffoons- more so than other companies in other tech fields and (4) the pay was crap. Plus i didn't like the idea of my future indirectly being dependent on how much the U.S. government wanted to spend on toys any given year…1st gen immigrants are pretty much more willing to put up with that crap…

Actually, one advantage of working for a defense company is that you'd have a greater chance of be laidoff due to a shrinking defense budget than being outsourced. Don’t believe me? Talk to folks that work in those big defense companies here in San Diego that are waiting for big contracts from the Gov lately.

As far as the third generation. Yeah, my kid will probably end up being fatter and lazier. I have to say, I’m not even close to the type of frugality of my parents….side affect of being raised here.

And lastly, I have nothing against caucasians. The few that made it into my engineering were brilliant and creative.

[drunkle]

asia is full of non engineering people. you dont go to japan or korea or china and run into egg heads everywhere.

indians and pakistanis aren’t really asian. siberians are more asian than indian or pakistanis, at least, in the mongoloid respect. imo.

talking about asians in generalities is funny. my mailman was asian, he was a nice guy…

[drunkle]

asia is full of non engineering people. you dont go to japan or korea or china and run into egg heads everywhere.

indians and pakistanis aren’t really asian. siberians are more asian than indian or pakistanis, at least, in the mongoloid respect. imo.

talking about asians in generalities is funny. my mailman was asian, he was a nice guy…

[an]

kewp, those articles basically showed the Asian culture drive to succeed through higher education. I don’t see how that’s related to engineering, especially us second generation Asian who went into engineering because we want to, not because we have to.

You think Toyota replicate? Last I check, GM, Ford, Chrysler all tried to replicate Toyota’s manufacturing efficiency. Trying to copy their processes. You can’t innovate until you know your fundamental. It great that Ford manufactured the first car. Coming first doesn’t mean you’re the only one who know how to innovate. Tell me which car company first produced hybrid cars? Which company able to develop more efficient cars? Answers to both those questions are Japanese cars. Japanese auto makers took what Ford started and took that to the next level. That, my friend is innovation.

[an]

kewp, those articles basically showed the Asian culture drive to succeed through higher education. I don’t see how that’s related to engineering, especially us second generation Asian who went into engineering because we want to, not because we have to.

You think Toyota replicate? Last I check, GM, Ford, Chrysler all tried to replicate Toyota’s manufacturing efficiency. Trying to copy their processes. You can’t innovate until you know your fundamental. It great that Ford manufactured the first car. Coming first doesn’t mean you’re the only one who know how to innovate. Tell me which car company first produced hybrid cars? Which company able to develop more efficient cars? Answers to both those questions are Japanese cars. Japanese auto makers took what Ford started and took that to the next level. That, my friend is innovation.

[4plexowner]

It is somewhat amusing that Americans taught the Japanese about quality control after WWII (Google Dr. W. Edwards Deming) and the Japanese ended up kicking America’s ass as far as producing a quality product at a reasonable price is concerned

At one point, if I remember correctly, the Japanese government required the automakers to do joint research – new technology could be taken at some point and used by each of the companies – I don’t know if this still happens – I think the idea was to prevent the wasting of resources that would occur by having 5 different companies researching the most aerodynamic way to implement windshield wipers (for example)

~

One of the biggest challenges we (Americans) face, IMO, is our own arrogance

We assume that if we didn’t invent it here, it can’t be a decent product – or if it is a decent product, that ‘they’ somehow copied or stole our technology

The underlying arrogance in this type of thinking is that we (Americans) are somehow superior to the rest of the world

To make it worse, we totally ignore history and assume that if it didn’t happen in our lifetimes it doesn’t matter – perhaps this is where a lot of the “it’s different this time” thinking comes from

[4plexowner]

It is somewhat amusing that Americans taught the Japanese about quality control after WWII (Google Dr. W. Edwards Deming) and the Japanese ended up kicking America’s ass as far as producing a quality product at a reasonable price is concerned

At one point, if I remember correctly, the Japanese government required the automakers to do joint research – new technology could be taken at some point and used by each of the companies – I don’t know if this still happens – I think the idea was to prevent the wasting of resources that would occur by having 5 different companies researching the most aerodynamic way to implement windshield wipers (for example)

~

One of the biggest challenges we (Americans) face, IMO, is our own arrogance

We assume that if we didn’t invent it here, it can’t be a decent product – or if it is a decent product, that ‘they’ somehow copied or stole our technology

The underlying arrogance in this type of thinking is that we (Americans) are somehow superior to the rest of the world

To make it worse, we totally ignore history and assume that if it didn’t happen in our lifetimes it doesn’t matter – perhaps this is where a lot of the “it’s different this time” thinking comes from

[speedingpullet]

drunkle said:
indians and pakistanis aren’t really asian. siberians are more asian than indian or pakistanis, at least, in the mongoloid respect. imo.

Depends on where you come from Drunkle.

“Asian”, in the UK, is someone exclusively from the Indian Subcontinent – ie Sri Lankan, Indian, Bangladeshi, Pakistani, and sometimes also Nepali and/or Bhutani.

People from parts of the world that Americans call “Asia” are normally called by thier country of ancestry/origin – ie Laotian, Vietnamese, Japanese, etc..

When India became independant, the UK saw a huge amount of immigrants from that part of the world – and not so many from what the US considers ‘Asia’. London does have the largest Vietnamese population in Europe, but immigrants from (US) ‘Asia’ are very few in comparison to the ones from the Indian Subcontinent.

Anyway, FYI

[Author]

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