Minority population grows into California majority

[greekfire]

I posted this article from the San Francisco Chronicle (Scripps News) on Population War.com.

San Francisco Chronicle
Thursday, May 17, 2007

The nation's minority population topped 100 million last year, about one-third of the total, and California had roughly 20 million minority residents, more than half of its total, according to new estimates from the U.S. Census Bureau.

Between the rising minority population _ particularly of Latinos of any race _ and the low median age of Latinos, a new kind of generation gap is arising across the country, experts said Wednesday: Most people over 60 are non-Hispanic whites, and most under 40 are not.

California starkly reflects this new gap. Non-Hispanic white people account for 63 percent of the state's residents age 60 and older. But the population under 40 is 38 percent Latino of any race, 13 percent Asian American, 8 percent black and just 39 percent non-Hispanic white.

Some demographers suspect the new generation gap will heighten the nation's struggle to provide adequate social services and public education.

"The biggest problems will be related to language and culture," said Andrew Scharlach, a professor of aging at UC Berkeley. "The difference may make it hard for nonwhite elders to take advantage of services for English-speaking white elders. There may also be problems in caretaking of white seniors by nonwhite providers."

Mark Mather, director of the Population Reference Bureau, a nonprofit in Washington, D.C., said researchers there found that states with the highest racial and ethnic diversity spend the least per pupil on education.

"It will be interesting to see if this new type of gap will affect funding for social programs and education spending for youth," he said.

The generation gap arises in part from a higher birth rate among Latino women, who average about three children compared to just under two children for non-Hispanic white, Asian and black people, said Hans Johnson, a demographer with the Public Policy Institute of California, in San Francisco. Mather said the chasm isn't likely to grow.

"We expect the gap to decline in the next 10 or 20 years with the aging of immigrants," Mather said.

Johnson agreed, noting that the immigration rate has been steady since the 1960s.

Latinos of any race were the fastest-growing minority group nationwide, reaching 44.2 million, up 3.4 percent from 2005, according to the annual estimates, which are being released to the public today. In California, Latinos also were the largest group, numbering 13.1 million, more than one-third of the state's total population.

The nation's Asian population grew almost as fast as the Latino between 2005 and 2006 _ more than 3 percent _ and much faster than the non-Hispanic white population, at 0.9 percent, or the black population, at 1.3 percent. But there are still many fewer Asian Americans than Latinos _ about one-third as many _ so the rising number of Asian Americans has not been obvious outside of heavily Asian regions like Northern California.

In addition to the largest Latino population, California has the most Asian Americans, 4.9 million, followed by New York and Texas. The nation's largest black population is in New York, followed by Florida and Texas.

Like California, three other states and Washington, D.C., are now more than 50 percent minority: Hawaii is 75 percent minority, Washington is 68 percent, New Mexico and California are each 57 percent minority, and Texas is 52 percent.

In 2006, the nation's black population passed 40 million, the Asian reached 14.9 million, and the Native Hawaiian and Pacific Islander groups each reached 1 million.

In addition to Hispanic, both black and Asian populations got younger in 2006. The non-Hispanic white population was older than the population as a whole, with a median age of 40.5 compared to 36.4.

The Census Bureau's estimates have diverged from the state of California's for many years, and the state's have proven more accurate based on the federal agency's actual counts in 1990 and 2000, Linda Gage, a spokeswoman for the California Department of Finance, said Wednesday.

Gage said both the state and Census Bureau rely heavily on tax returns and birth and death records to create their estimates. But California's use of driver's license records enables it to track down many more residents, including those who don't pay taxes. She said that accounts for her agency's 37.4 million estimate for California's population in July 2006 population being 3 percent higher than the Census Bureau's.

The state has not released other estimates for 2006, but the trends in both agencies' numbers have been similar in most instances.

 

[Cow_tipping]

They should start a new minority support program and open it to whites only (OK OK black people too). but then the majority will be hispanic and will screw them over before that program comes to force.
Cool.
Cow_tipping.

[Cow_tipping]

They should start a new minority support program and open it to whites only (OK OK black people too). but then the majority will be hispanic and will screw them over before that program comes to force.
Cool.
Cow_tipping.

[Coronita]

Joke:

What does U.C.L.A. stand for?

University of Caucasians Lost to Asians.

Since we’re talking about quotas. Let’s drop the asian quotas from colleges. You want to talk about discrimination, play both fields in terms of fairness.

[nla]

How about USC?

University of Spoiled Chinese. j/k

[an]

I always thought USC = University of Spoiled Children :-). But UCI = University of Chinese Immigrants :-).

[Anonymous]

Over 50% of the engineering students at UC Irvine are foreigners. Are Americans losing seats to these folks or are we just not applying? If American’s with 96% GREs are losing seats to foreigners with 99% GREs, something aint right. I believe the real answer is that Americans just aren’t applying, and that is an even bigger shame.

[Cow_tipping]

Americans study art and other subjects that seem to favor an easy sailing or somehting they “Like”. Injuns and asians in general study what will get them employed. Or they study what their parents tell them to.
Face it, engineering and physics and math (building blocks of how the world works) isn’t something you can party all night and still manage to pass the next day.
There is no quota for foreigners. Most Graduate students in any US engineering program got there because of their ability to learn and their willingness to teach under graduates. The schools pay foreign grad students to come work/study there. There are a million restrictions (like having to work in the department you are studying in, and minimum number of credits you need to take per semester and what not) and yet its over run by immigrants.
This trend of “studying what you like” is as cute as the dodo bird. Soon it will bring down the whole country as we lose ground to every other nation on earth. I am talking this as a father of a 4 year old who I dont believe will ever get the education he needs in high school to work his way through an engineering program if things dont change. I studied math and physics and chemistry and biology and every damn thing under the sun, liked it, didn’t have a choice and I had to keep at it inspite of failing at it if I wanted to have a roof over my head and food to eat (OK OK not that bad) but what I wasn’t realising was that, I was failing at a higher and higher level. Then I realised, I have a 50% success rate. Then much much later I realised they were teaching me 400% of what I needed to live in the world. I studied Civil engineering and now work as a software engineer. Case closed. Less than 25% of my time in Under grad was spent doing Computer science. More than enough to make a difference in your life.
Cool.
Cow_tipping.

[forsale_2007]

This trend of "studying what you like" is as cute as the dodo bird. Soon it will bring down the whole country as we lose ground to every other nation on earth. I am talking this as a father of a 4 year old who I dont believe will ever get the education he needs in high school to work his way through an engineering program if things dont change.

 

The way we teach math here is so wrong in so many ways. The bane of why we suck at math in practice imho

1)The concept of "show your work" for calculations

2)The use of calculators.

My wife who was raised overseas can compute most everything in her head instead of on paper. Long division, long multiplication, etc,etc,etc. I can't get beyond a couple of digits without being either too slow or too inaccurate. Given a sales tax of 7.75%, she can tell me exactly how much any amount is within a few seconds.

 

[an]

I totally agree with you forsale_2007. When you don’t have to do it on paper, you think very differently. Lets use the 7.75% tax you’re talking about. If I would have to do it on paper, I would have to calculate one number at a time. But if you do it in your head, you’ll find short cuts that allow you to get the same result faster. Such as multiplying 7.75 by 2 will give you 15.5%. You know what 1% is quickly so you can divide that by 2 to get the .5%, and you know what 10% is quickly, so if you divide that in 1/2 and add it to the 10%, you get 15.5% quite quickly with very simple math. Take that # and divide by 2 and you get your 7.75% tax with very simple math. I think that’s what I think is the difference between showing your work on paper learning method and doing it in your head learning method.

[SDowner]

It is true that high school education in asian countries is more diverse and packed than American system, but it is also true that the method of teaching in the US is superior to many countries, at least at the graduate and post graduate levels. You really learn to think “on your feet” with all the available data.

The best combination is to study up to high school in Asia and do your college course in the US, which advantage many 1st gen asian immigrants have.

SDowner

[SDowner]

It is true that high school education in asian countries is more diverse and packed than American system, but it is also true that the method of teaching in the US is superior to many countries, at least at the graduate and post graduate levels. You really learn to think “on your feet” with all the available data.

The best combination is to study up to high school in Asia and do your college course in the US, which advantage many 1st gen asian immigrants have.

SDowner

[an]

I totally agree with you forsale_2007. When you don’t have to do it on paper, you think very differently. Lets use the 7.75% tax you’re talking about. If I would have to do it on paper, I would have to calculate one number at a time. But if you do it in your head, you’ll find short cuts that allow you to get the same result faster. Such as multiplying 7.75 by 2 will give you 15.5%. You know what 1% is quickly so you can divide that by 2 to get the .5%, and you know what 10% is quickly, so if you divide that in 1/2 and add it to the 10%, you get 15.5% quite quickly with very simple math. Take that # and divide by 2 and you get your 7.75% tax with very simple math. I think that’s what I think is the difference between showing your work on paper learning method and doing it in your head learning method.

[forsale_2007]

This trend of "studying what you like" is as cute as the dodo bird. Soon it will bring down the whole country as we lose ground to every other nation on earth. I am talking this as a father of a 4 year old who I dont believe will ever get the education he needs in high school to work his way through an engineering program if things dont change.

 

The way we teach math here is so wrong in so many ways. The bane of why we suck at math in practice imho

1)The concept of "show your work" for calculations

2)The use of calculators.

My wife who was raised overseas can compute most everything in her head instead of on paper. Long division, long multiplication, etc,etc,etc. I can't get beyond a couple of digits without being either too slow or too inaccurate. Given a sales tax of 7.75%, she can tell me exactly how much any amount is within a few seconds.

 

[Cow_tipping]

Americans study art and other subjects that seem to favor an easy sailing or somehting they “Like”. Injuns and asians in general study what will get them employed. Or they study what their parents tell them to.
Face it, engineering and physics and math (building blocks of how the world works) isn’t something you can party all night and still manage to pass the next day.
There is no quota for foreigners. Most Graduate students in any US engineering program got there because of their ability to learn and their willingness to teach under graduates. The schools pay foreign grad students to come work/study there. There are a million restrictions (like having to work in the department you are studying in, and minimum number of credits you need to take per semester and what not) and yet its over run by immigrants.
This trend of “studying what you like” is as cute as the dodo bird. Soon it will bring down the whole country as we lose ground to every other nation on earth. I am talking this as a father of a 4 year old who I dont believe will ever get the education he needs in high school to work his way through an engineering program if things dont change. I studied math and physics and chemistry and biology and every damn thing under the sun, liked it, didn’t have a choice and I had to keep at it inspite of failing at it if I wanted to have a roof over my head and food to eat (OK OK not that bad) but what I wasn’t realising was that, I was failing at a higher and higher level. Then I realised, I have a 50% success rate. Then much much later I realised they were teaching me 400% of what I needed to live in the world. I studied Civil engineering and now work as a software engineer. Case closed. Less than 25% of my time in Under grad was spent doing Computer science. More than enough to make a difference in your life.
Cool.
Cow_tipping.

[forsale_2007]

I’ll tell you what I found interesting…..When I was in high school (a long long time ago, in a galaxy not far away)….I recall the irony of my Senior Advanced Placement English class….70% of the class were Asians…The overall Asian population in the school was 25%….The second irony was that I was actually in the AP English class. My engrish is horrific, and yet somehow I did ok in that class…

I won’t even talk about the Calc and Physics classes…

Actually in college, my engineering classes consisted mostly of (1)really smart immigrants (asians/indians/russians) or (2) intellectually smart 2nd gen asians but practically stupid..because…the “really smart” 2nd generation asians figured out that is was much better to spend the same time working to be a lawyer or investment banker. Yeah, I fell into the #2 category….

The thing I noticed growing up is that several Americans simply didn’t seem to care too much about education, which I thought was “odd”.

And the thing that drives me up the wall is how bad some people are at math.. I recall being at a store, and the cash register was down. The clerk couldn’t figure out how much 10% off something was, and went searching for a calculator….And when I told that person, the clerk asked me how I figured it out so quickly…..Ok, I can’t figure out sqrt’s in my head like my wife from overseas can. But come on, 10%????? Don’t believe me? Watch that TV show “Are you Smarter than a 5th Grader?” and see at some of the ridiculously simple math questions that are asked, and see how people can’t answer those questions….

[forsale_2007]

I’ll tell you what I found interesting…..When I was in high school (a long long time ago, in a galaxy not far away)….I recall the irony of my Senior Advanced Placement English class….70% of the class were Asians…The overall Asian population in the school was 25%….The second irony was that I was actually in the AP English class. My engrish is horrific, and yet somehow I did ok in that class…

I won’t even talk about the Calc and Physics classes…

Actually in college, my engineering classes consisted mostly of (1)really smart immigrants (asians/indians/russians) or (2) intellectually smart 2nd gen asians but practically stupid..because…the “really smart” 2nd generation asians figured out that is was much better to spend the same time working to be a lawyer or investment banker. Yeah, I fell into the #2 category….

The thing I noticed growing up is that several Americans simply didn’t seem to care too much about education, which I thought was “odd”.

And the thing that drives me up the wall is how bad some people are at math.. I recall being at a store, and the cash register was down. The clerk couldn’t figure out how much 10% off something was, and went searching for a calculator….And when I told that person, the clerk asked me how I figured it out so quickly…..Ok, I can’t figure out sqrt’s in my head like my wife from overseas can. But come on, 10%????? Don’t believe me? Watch that TV show “Are you Smarter than a 5th Grader?” and see at some of the ridiculously simple math questions that are asked, and see how people can’t answer those questions….

[Anonymous]

Here’s an email I got probably by accident. Americans need not apply.

Dennis Smith wrote:

Urgent openings for full time position (Oracle DBA)

Hi,

This is Dennis from HD Dimension Corp. which deals with IT
staffing, consulting, recruiting and resourcing. I have got your profile
from job portal and it is my pleasure to let you know that your profile
matches with several job openings with us …….

HD Dimension Corp is a DNB certified company in serving its Fortune
500 clients in IT Consulting and Staffing. We have several openings with
our Client projects across USA. We are looking for excellent people who
can take on challenge and perform as Wall Street professional …….

Our Clients are JPMC, Microsoft, AT & T, CISCO, Merrill Lynch, Goldman
Sachs, Citigroup, and many more ……

For further information visit our website http://www.hddimension.com

Our openings:

Oracle DBA.

What you need to qualify:

– Master/Bachelors in any Technology/Engineering or having knowledge
about UNIX, oracle 9i, 10g, Database, SQL ..
– Valid work Authorization in USA.
– Freshers can apply.

Fully Industry oriented onsite training with FREE ACCOMODATION.

Training (Must Required) & Job Opportunity (100 % Guaranteed)

Summary: We provide industrial-strength training on Oracle DBA and job
opportunities (100 % guaranteed)……
Training Starts On : 18th August ..

Training Duration: Five weeks ( core Oracle DBA Training and BOOT Camp
process with grooming sessions and free guidance from mentor ) ….

Class Description: Small class size with around 10 people free
accommodation during Training ……

Training Fee : $1500 (to be paid by the candidate) , because we will
guarantee you a full time job with a minimum of $ 55k to $ 65k per
annum initially with a definite chance of salary hike (10 %) twice a
year and medical benefits 22 days paid annual leaves ……

Training place: 3312 Town Court South, Lawrenceville, NJ, USA 08648.

What we offer to you:

– Full Time permanent job.
– Working with Billion Dollar projects of Fortune 500 companies.
– H1B Sponsorship.
– Green card Sponsorship.
– Benefits like Medical, Dental, Vision etc.
– Aggressive Salaries with 10% increment annually.
– Performance Evaluation every six months.
– Offer letter for CPT application…..

Interested candidates, who want to grab this 100% (Guaranteed) job
opportunity followed by this compulsory industry oriented training with
upfront payment, send me your updated Resume in word format along with
your current visa status ASAP and we will guarantee you with 100 % job
opportunity (full time) after successful completion of the training
along with visa sponsorship …..

Shoot off your resume along with your visa status ASAP…
Looking forward to your reply, so that we can move accordingly before
time runs out…..

Urgent requirement for Oracle DBA

In case of any queries ,

Contact : Dennis Smith
Telephone : 732-546-3995 , 732-658-5270
Email : [email protected]
Website : http://www.hddimension.com
Company Name : HD Dimension Corp.
Company Address :
5 Independence Way
Suite 300
Princeton, NJ 08540

[kewp]

Training Fee : $1500 (to be paid by the candidate) , because we will
guarantee you a full time job with a minimum of $ 55k to $ 65k per
annum initially with a definite chance of salary hike (10 %) twice a
year and medical benefits 22 days paid annual leaves ……

Sounds like a scam. I’m glad American’s need not apply!

[one_muggle]

Wow… this racist anti-american thread is back!?
I thought the motto here was bring data, let’s see
Nobel Prizes as of 2006
USA:160
Japan: 12 (nope, didn’t forget a zero)
China: 5
FWIW: Poland nudges out Japan with 14, and Ireland follows closely with 10 (just pointing that out since I am a 1st generation McPollack myself–wonder if I get any “hybrid vigor”).
What data is out there to refute American’s dominance in innovation? Maybe more recent inventions? Like the transistor, computer, internet, world wide web (BTW:not the same thing), Google–but those are American too…

An admittedly anecdotal story:my uncle, who was but a babe when he got to these shores is now a self-made multi-millionaire. Not bad for a lazy, good for nothing Mick. Good thing all these Asians weren’t around back then to muck things up for him ;^)

The logic (or rather lack)here seems to be: People from another country to US universities because Americans are less intelligent…right. Makes no sense. People come to our universities because they know ours are among the best in the world. On balance that great sucking sound one hears is a brain drain from the rest of the world to the US. The reason Americans don’t flock to higher education (post graduate) is that it is hard and often does not payoff financially, at least not much more than a BA or BS (maybe a Masters), especially for smart, motivated native speakers.

The reason Asians and other immigrants do so well upon coming here is simple. Anyone with the energy, courage and ability to up and leave their homeland, and support system (family), as well as learn a new language and culture has already shown themselves to be better. Better than the average American and better than their average countrymen. The average immigrant is not your average person. These days the average American goes to college. Not so in most countries. So, it should not be surprizing that the average foreign college student is better then the average American.

But maybe it is the genes?
Two thousand years ago the Chinese became astronomers, pondering the universe. These days most are dirt farmers or factory workers. I guess their genes went bad. Two thousand years ago the Arabs had sewers, while the Euros were throwing crap out their windows. Now Arabs (not in direct power) scratch out livings while the Euros sip lattes wondering how to integrate the 20% of the population with no formal education–mostly Arab. Guess their genes got dated too.

Or maybe it has something to do with opportunity… no, that would put the burden back on us to do well. After all, you are probably average–by definition 8^P. Well, back to Pro-Wrestling, my TiVo is full of Paris Hilton interviews, so I can’t record it.

-one Ugly American muggle

[Anonymous]

o_m, you know some neat stats and history, and display fine logic. Glad that you’re on our side!

What do you do for a living?

[Anonymous]

o_m, you know some neat stats and history, and display fine logic. Glad that you’re on our side!

What do you do for a living?

[Coronita]

The logic (or rather lack)here seems to be: People from another country to US universities because Americans are less intelligent…right. Makes no sense. People come to our universities because they know ours are among the best in the world. On balance that great sucking sound one hears is a brain drain from the rest of the world to the US. The reason Americans don't flock to higher education (post graduate) is that it is hard and often does not payoff financially, at least not much more than a BA or BS (maybe a Masters), especially for smart, motivated native speakers.

 

Um, yeah, sure. The average person that doesn't seek a higher education is better off financially. Um, I would say the flaw in that logic is that a very small percentage (with most of them here on this board probably) would fit that mode. Is that why we see so many middle class folks struggling to meet basic survival? Or why so many people bitch about affordability of homes. Sorry, I would say the average american would be better off it they attained higher education, because most of them are NOT Bill Gates, even though they thing they are.

 

Funny you should mention about the higher education not financially “sound”. An excoworker of mine said the same thing. He bitches about “our jobs” being outsourced. How this is “discouraging” americans from entering advance degrees, yada , yada,yada. Meanwhile this fat fvck showed up at work at 11am, took 2 hour lunch break, got back around 2pm, played solitaire till 4, was actively blogging the rest of the day. And yet he still bitched about his job (trust me, he was pretty well paid). I finally got so fed up with him, I just told him that if he’s so unhappy, just quit. His response: “I don’t think I could find another position elsewhere that could ‘accomodate’ my lifestyle.” Go figure.

But hey, that’s just my opinion. And opinions are a dime a dozen. Of course, I’m not going to complain about housing affordability or if things come crashing down either..Because frankly, I’ve (we’ve done pretty well), and pretty much don’t care either way.

Personally, I like any type of highly motivated people, white, asian, purple, green blue that is pretty open minded. I just like to make fun of the idiot rednecks that scream “Buy american” when most of the sh!t they bought al walmart is made overseas, and they aren’t willing to give it up…no different than the FOB’s that stick out like a sore thumb.

[rankandfile]

FLU –

You presented your latest post of this thread with the implied ethos that you are the opposite of your lazy, fat fvck ex-coworker. But, and forgive me for asking this, how did you know so much detail about how he spent his work days while you were supposed to be hard at work yourself? Isn’t that like the stove calling the kettle black?

[Coronita]

FLU – You presented your latest post of this thread with the implied ethos that you are the opposite of your lazy, fat fvck ex-coworker. But, and forgive me for asking this, how did you know so much detail about how he spent his work days while you were supposed to be hard at work yourself? Isn't that like the stove calling the kettle black?

 

1. The way we were sitting in one room, it was like a classroom. I sat right behind him and could see exactly what he was doing, when he got in, when he left, when he was playing solitaire, when he was surfing, when he was blogging, when he waa actually working (which wasn’t that much). Ironically, the group leader sat right behind me and could see everyone as well. I was running a project, and unfortunately depended on him. Pretty soon, it was just more efficient not to include him in any discussions, because anything that came out of his mouth was just B.S. So as the project owner, I also know what he did (or I should say what little he did). Also, although I didn’t go that far, I’m sure the I.T. logs for his machines would show that most his time was spent not working. In fact most companies that I worked at have network logs that details exactly what each employee does/doesn’t do. No one really looks at them, unless you get into a legal issues, or want to fire someone with some reasons.

2. As far as myself
I get my sh!t done.

3. I'm pretty proactive about running projects

4. If I was in a position to, I would have fired that coworker. Unfortunately, I couldn't. But fortunately, others are looking at it now.

5. While I don't expect people to work like slaves, and everyone spends some time at work doing non-work stuff, folks like this coworker deserve to loose their jobs and struggle to get back to reality. He literally gets nothing done, and pretty much blames everyone but himself as to why. Epitome of a lot of lazy asses I've run across in my career. No work ethics frankly.

6. I no longer work for that company because I hate being surrounded by lazy people such as him. And my understanding is that those that are left at that company pretty much are useless elsewhere (except the ones on H1-B's which are there because they have to be there).

 

[Coronita]

FLU – You presented your latest post of this thread with the implied ethos that you are the opposite of your lazy, fat fvck ex-coworker. But, and forgive me for asking this, how did you know so much detail about how he spent his work days while you were supposed to be hard at work yourself? Isn't that like the stove calling the kettle black?

 

1. The way we were sitting in one room, it was like a classroom. I sat right behind him and could see exactly what he was doing, when he got in, when he left, when he was playing solitaire, when he was surfing, when he was blogging, when he waa actually working (which wasn’t that much). Ironically, the group leader sat right behind me and could see everyone as well. I was running a project, and unfortunately depended on him. Pretty soon, it was just more efficient not to include him in any discussions, because anything that came out of his mouth was just B.S. So as the project owner, I also know what he did (or I should say what little he did). Also, although I didn’t go that far, I’m sure the I.T. logs for his machines would show that most his time was spent not working. In fact most companies that I worked at have network logs that details exactly what each employee does/doesn’t do. No one really looks at them, unless you get into a legal issues, or want to fire someone with some reasons.

2. As far as myself
I get my sh!t done.

3. I'm pretty proactive about running projects

4. If I was in a position to, I would have fired that coworker. Unfortunately, I couldn't. But fortunately, others are looking at it now.

5. While I don't expect people to work like slaves, and everyone spends some time at work doing non-work stuff, folks like this coworker deserve to loose their jobs and struggle to get back to reality. He literally gets nothing done, and pretty much blames everyone but himself as to why. Epitome of a lot of lazy asses I've run across in my career. No work ethics frankly.

6. I no longer work for that company because I hate being surrounded by lazy people such as him. And my understanding is that those that are left at that company pretty much are useless elsewhere (except the ones on H1-B's which are there because they have to be there).

 

[rankandfile]

FLU –

You presented your latest post of this thread with the implied ethos that you are the opposite of your lazy, fat fvck ex-coworker. But, and forgive me for asking this, how did you know so much detail about how he spent his work days while you were supposed to be hard at work yourself? Isn’t that like the stove calling the kettle black?

[Coronita]

The logic (or rather lack)here seems to be: People from another country to US universities because Americans are less intelligent…right. Makes no sense. People come to our universities because they know ours are among the best in the world. On balance that great sucking sound one hears is a brain drain from the rest of the world to the US. The reason Americans don't flock to higher education (post graduate) is that it is hard and often does not payoff financially, at least not much more than a BA or BS (maybe a Masters), especially for smart, motivated native speakers.

 

Um, yeah, sure. The average person that doesn't seek a higher education is better off financially. Um, I would say the flaw in that logic is that a very small percentage (with most of them here on this board probably) would fit that mode. Is that why we see so many middle class folks struggling to meet basic survival? Or why so many people bitch about affordability of homes. Sorry, I would say the average american would be better off it they attained higher education, because most of them are NOT Bill Gates, even though they thing they are.

 

Funny you should mention about the higher education not financially “sound”. An excoworker of mine said the same thing. He bitches about “our jobs” being outsourced. How this is “discouraging” americans from entering advance degrees, yada , yada,yada. Meanwhile this fat fvck showed up at work at 11am, took 2 hour lunch break, got back around 2pm, played solitaire till 4, was actively blogging the rest of the day. And yet he still bitched about his job (trust me, he was pretty well paid). I finally got so fed up with him, I just told him that if he’s so unhappy, just quit. His response: “I don’t think I could find another position elsewhere that could ‘accomodate’ my lifestyle.” Go figure.

But hey, that’s just my opinion. And opinions are a dime a dozen. Of course, I’m not going to complain about housing affordability or if things come crashing down either..Because frankly, I’ve (we’ve done pretty well), and pretty much don’t care either way.

Personally, I like any type of highly motivated people, white, asian, purple, green blue that is pretty open minded. I just like to make fun of the idiot rednecks that scream “Buy american” when most of the sh!t they bought al walmart is made overseas, and they aren’t willing to give it up…no different than the FOB’s that stick out like a sore thumb.

[one_muggle]

Wow… this racist anti-american thread is back!?
I thought the motto here was bring data, let’s see
Nobel Prizes as of 2006
USA:160
Japan: 12 (nope, didn’t forget a zero)
China: 5
FWIW: Poland nudges out Japan with 14, and Ireland follows closely with 10 (just pointing that out since I am a 1st generation McPollack myself–wonder if I get any “hybrid vigor”).
What data is out there to refute American’s dominance in innovation? Maybe more recent inventions? Like the transistor, computer, internet, world wide web (BTW:not the same thing), Google–but those are American too…

An admittedly anecdotal story:my uncle, who was but a babe when he got to these shores is now a self-made multi-millionaire. Not bad for a lazy, good for nothing Mick. Good thing all these Asians weren’t around back then to muck things up for him ;^)

The logic (or rather lack)here seems to be: People from another country to US universities because Americans are less intelligent…right. Makes no sense. People come to our universities because they know ours are among the best in the world. On balance that great sucking sound one hears is a brain drain from the rest of the world to the US. The reason Americans don’t flock to higher education (post graduate) is that it is hard and often does not payoff financially, at least not much more than a BA or BS (maybe a Masters), especially for smart, motivated native speakers.

The reason Asians and other immigrants do so well upon coming here is simple. Anyone with the energy, courage and ability to up and leave their homeland, and support system (family), as well as learn a new language and culture has already shown themselves to be better. Better than the average American and better than their average countrymen. The average immigrant is not your average person. These days the average American goes to college. Not so in most countries. So, it should not be surprizing that the average foreign college student is better then the average American.

But maybe it is the genes?
Two thousand years ago the Chinese became astronomers, pondering the universe. These days most are dirt farmers or factory workers. I guess their genes went bad. Two thousand years ago the Arabs had sewers, while the Euros were throwing crap out their windows. Now Arabs (not in direct power) scratch out livings while the Euros sip lattes wondering how to integrate the 20% of the population with no formal education–mostly Arab. Guess their genes got dated too.

Or maybe it has something to do with opportunity… no, that would put the burden back on us to do well. After all, you are probably average–by definition 8^P. Well, back to Pro-Wrestling, my TiVo is full of Paris Hilton interviews, so I can’t record it.

-one Ugly American muggle

[kewp]

Training Fee : $1500 (to be paid by the candidate) , because we will
guarantee you a full time job with a minimum of $ 55k to $ 65k per
annum initially with a definite chance of salary hike (10 %) twice a
year and medical benefits 22 days paid annual leaves ……

Sounds like a scam. I’m glad American’s need not apply!

[Coronita]

Here's an email I got probably by accident. Americans need not apply. Dennis Smith wrote: Urgent openings for full time position (Oracle DBA) Hi, This is Dennis from HD Dimension Corp. which deals with IT staffing, consulting, recruiting and resourcing. I have got your profile from job portal and it is my pleasure to let you know that your profile matches with several job openings with us ……. HD Dimension Corp is a DNB certified company in serving its Fortune 500 clients in IT Consulting and Staffing. We have several openings with our Client projects across USA. We are looking for excellent people who can take on challenge and perform as Wall Street professional ……. Our Clients are JPMC, Microsoft, AT & T, CISCO, Merrill Lynch, Goldman Sachs, Citigroup, and many more …… For further information visit our website http://www.hddimension.com Our openings: Oracle DBA. What you need to qualify: – Master/Bachelors in any Technology/Engineering or having knowledge about UNIX, oracle 9i, 10g, Database, SQL .. – Valid work Authorization in USA. – Freshers can apply. Fully Industry oriented onsite training with FREE ACCOMODATION. Training (Must Required) & Job Opportunity (100 % Guaranteed) Summary: We provide industrial-strength training on Oracle DBA and job opportunities (100 % guaranteed)…… Training Starts On : 18th August .. Training Duration: Five weeks ( core Oracle DBA Training and BOOT Camp process with grooming sessions and free guidance from mentor ) …. Class Description: Small class size with around 10 people free accommodation during Training …… Training Fee : $1500 (to be paid by the candidate) , because we will guarantee you a full time job with a minimum of $ 55k to $ 65k per annum initially with a definite chance of salary hike (10 %) twice a year and medical benefits 22 days paid annual leaves …… Training place: 3312 Town Court South, Lawrenceville, NJ, USA 08648. What we offer to you: – Full Time permanent job. – Working with Billion Dollar projects of Fortune 500 companies. – H1B Sponsorship. – Green card Sponsorship. – Benefits like Medical, Dental, Vision etc. – Aggressive Salaries with 10% increment annually. – Performance Evaluation every six months. – Offer letter for CPT application….. Interested candidates, who want to grab this 100% (Guaranteed) job opportunity followed by this compulsory industry oriented training with upfront payment, send me your updated Resume in word format along with your current visa status ASAP and we will guarantee you with 100 % job opportunity (full time) after successful completion of the training along with visa sponsorship ….. Shoot off your resume along with your visa status ASAP… Looking forward to your reply, so that we can move accordingly before time runs out….. Urgent requirement for Oracle DBA In case of any queries , Contact : Dennis Smith Telephone : 732-546-3995 , 732-658-5270 Email : [email protected] Website : http://www.hddimension.com Company Name : HD Dimension Corp. Company Address : 5 Independence Way Suite 300 Princeton, NJ 08540

 

Again. Jobs like this are *hardly* differentiating. DBA almost like "programmer". I.E. it's a monkey see, monkey do type job that has very little barriers to entry. Java, C++ coding skills are easily outsourced. Find me a good system designer,architect,PM,PDM that can be outsourced, let me know.

[Coronita]

Here's an email I got probably by accident. Americans need not apply. Dennis Smith wrote: Urgent openings for full time position (Oracle DBA) Hi, This is Dennis from HD Dimension Corp. which deals with IT staffing, consulting, recruiting and resourcing. I have got your profile from job portal and it is my pleasure to let you know that your profile matches with several job openings with us ……. HD Dimension Corp is a DNB certified company in serving its Fortune 500 clients in IT Consulting and Staffing. We have several openings with our Client projects across USA. We are looking for excellent people who can take on challenge and perform as Wall Street professional ……. Our Clients are JPMC, Microsoft, AT & T, CISCO, Merrill Lynch, Goldman Sachs, Citigroup, and many more …… For further information visit our website http://www.hddimension.com Our openings: Oracle DBA. What you need to qualify: – Master/Bachelors in any Technology/Engineering or having knowledge about UNIX, oracle 9i, 10g, Database, SQL .. – Valid work Authorization in USA. – Freshers can apply. Fully Industry oriented onsite training with FREE ACCOMODATION. Training (Must Required) & Job Opportunity (100 % Guaranteed) Summary: We provide industrial-strength training on Oracle DBA and job opportunities (100 % guaranteed)…… Training Starts On : 18th August .. Training Duration: Five weeks ( core Oracle DBA Training and BOOT Camp process with grooming sessions and free guidance from mentor ) …. Class Description: Small class size with around 10 people free accommodation during Training …… Training Fee : $1500 (to be paid by the candidate) , because we will guarantee you a full time job with a minimum of $ 55k to $ 65k per annum initially with a definite chance of salary hike (10 %) twice a year and medical benefits 22 days paid annual leaves …… Training place: 3312 Town Court South, Lawrenceville, NJ, USA 08648. What we offer to you: – Full Time permanent job. – Working with Billion Dollar projects of Fortune 500 companies. – H1B Sponsorship. – Green card Sponsorship. – Benefits like Medical, Dental, Vision etc. – Aggressive Salaries with 10% increment annually. – Performance Evaluation every six months. – Offer letter for CPT application….. Interested candidates, who want to grab this 100% (Guaranteed) job opportunity followed by this compulsory industry oriented training with upfront payment, send me your updated Resume in word format along with your current visa status ASAP and we will guarantee you with 100 % job opportunity (full time) after successful completion of the training along with visa sponsorship ….. Shoot off your resume along with your visa status ASAP… Looking forward to your reply, so that we can move accordingly before time runs out….. Urgent requirement for Oracle DBA In case of any queries , Contact : Dennis Smith Telephone : 732-546-3995 , 732-658-5270 Email : [email protected] Website : http://www.hddimension.com Company Name : HD Dimension Corp. Company Address : 5 Independence Way Suite 300 Princeton, NJ 08540

 

Again. Jobs like this are *hardly* differentiating. DBA almost like "programmer". I.E. it's a monkey see, monkey do type job that has very little barriers to entry. Java, C++ coding skills are easily outsourced. Find me a good system designer,architect,PM,PDM that can be outsourced, let me know.

[Anonymous]

hmmm, the replies I posted have been deleted. Beware of mind control where free speech is not tolerated.

This is a waste of time. I do not trust the information on this site.

[KIBU]

I am a first generation, used to be fresh off the boat from “Asia”, Southeast. If I have not picked a profession that has a good job market, I would literally went starved together with my family, my parents and siblings. It is a survival matter and you just have to pick the field that provide stable jobs. For me, it was not a choice, eventhough I still keep dreaming what if I have picked the field I loved all my life instead of the profession I am in now. No one would die, but it would have been a very hard life for everybody if I picked my passion. Yes, we Asians have passions like anybody else, but many got stuck with the situation we are from. I always respect and admire the many American friends who chose their field out of love and passions, instead of for money or parental pressure. I admire their success and intelligence and enjoyment. I even admire more the few asians I know who pursued their passions inspite of the situation they are in. For my kids, I have learned the lesson and would definitely try to provide them the opportunity to CHOOSE themselves.

That is just my experience as a first generation Asian immigrant. I don’t believe that one can be stereotyped to be the same as second generation immigrants, or worse, stretch it and include asians who live in Asia…we are different. But in general, I believe that you have to come into the field with passions in order to come up with big ideas.

In terms of innovation, the only thing I can brag about is the near miss patenting that I did on a major idea. It turned out a big company has already taken cared of that patenting.

In terms of innovations, I believe Asia or asians lag behind the west a very far, far distant. We are a little better than pure copy cats with some secondary innovations. The Western world’s culture, education and open thinking produced and still produce the primary earth changing innovations that everyone else is just following, in general. There would be some exceptions, of course.

Innovations depends on many factors, not just how many BS,MS,PhD degrees you have: infrastructure, protective legal system, culture encouraging innovation, business environment to provide resources, the arts, and of course the brain.

I believe Asia will need at least a century to catch up.

[KIBU]

I am a first generation, used to be fresh off the boat from “Asia”, Southeast. If I have not picked a profession that has a good job market, I would literally went starved together with my family, my parents and siblings. It is a survival matter and you just have to pick the field that provide stable jobs. For me, it was not a choice, eventhough I still keep dreaming what if I have picked the field I loved all my life instead of the profession I am in now. No one would die, but it would have been a very hard life for everybody if I picked my passion. Yes, we Asians have passions like anybody else, but many got stuck with the situation we are from. I always respect and admire the many American friends who chose their field out of love and passions, instead of for money or parental pressure. I admire their success and intelligence and enjoyment. I even admire more the few asians I know who pursued their passions inspite of the situation they are in. For my kids, I have learned the lesson and would definitely try to provide them the opportunity to CHOOSE themselves.

That is just my experience as a first generation Asian immigrant. I don’t believe that one can be stereotyped to be the same as second generation immigrants, or worse, stretch it and include asians who live in Asia…we are different. But in general, I believe that you have to come into the field with passions in order to come up with big ideas.

In terms of innovation, the only thing I can brag about is the near miss patenting that I did on a major idea. It turned out a big company has already taken cared of that patenting.

In terms of innovations, I believe Asia or asians lag behind the west a very far, far distant. We are a little better than pure copy cats with some secondary innovations. The Western world’s culture, education and open thinking produced and still produce the primary earth changing innovations that everyone else is just following, in general. There would be some exceptions, of course.

Innovations depends on many factors, not just how many BS,MS,PhD degrees you have: infrastructure, protective legal system, culture encouraging innovation, business environment to provide resources, the arts, and of course the brain.

I believe Asia will need at least a century to catch up.

[Anonymous]

hmmm, the replies I posted have been deleted. Beware of mind control where free speech is not tolerated.

This is a waste of time. I do not trust the information on this site.

[Anonymous]

Here’s an email I got probably by accident. Americans need not apply.

Dennis Smith wrote:

Urgent openings for full time position (Oracle DBA)

Hi,

This is Dennis from HD Dimension Corp. which deals with IT
staffing, consulting, recruiting and resourcing. I have got your profile
from job portal and it is my pleasure to let you know that your profile
matches with several job openings with us …….

HD Dimension Corp is a DNB certified company in serving its Fortune
500 clients in IT Consulting and Staffing. We have several openings with
our Client projects across USA. We are looking for excellent people who
can take on challenge and perform as Wall Street professional …….

Our Clients are JPMC, Microsoft, AT & T, CISCO, Merrill Lynch, Goldman
Sachs, Citigroup, and many more ……

For further information visit our website http://www.hddimension.com

Our openings:

Oracle DBA.

What you need to qualify:

– Master/Bachelors in any Technology/Engineering or having knowledge
about UNIX, oracle 9i, 10g, Database, SQL ..
– Valid work Authorization in USA.
– Freshers can apply.

Fully Industry oriented onsite training with FREE ACCOMODATION.

Training (Must Required) & Job Opportunity (100 % Guaranteed)

Summary: We provide industrial-strength training on Oracle DBA and job
opportunities (100 % guaranteed)……
Training Starts On : 18th August ..

Training Duration: Five weeks ( core Oracle DBA Training and BOOT Camp
process with grooming sessions and free guidance from mentor ) ….

Class Description: Small class size with around 10 people free
accommodation during Training ……

Training Fee : $1500 (to be paid by the candidate) , because we will
guarantee you a full time job with a minimum of $ 55k to $ 65k per
annum initially with a definite chance of salary hike (10 %) twice a
year and medical benefits 22 days paid annual leaves ……

Training place: 3312 Town Court South, Lawrenceville, NJ, USA 08648.

What we offer to you:

– Full Time permanent job.
– Working with Billion Dollar projects of Fortune 500 companies.
– H1B Sponsorship.
– Green card Sponsorship.
– Benefits like Medical, Dental, Vision etc.
– Aggressive Salaries with 10% increment annually.
– Performance Evaluation every six months.
– Offer letter for CPT application…..

Interested candidates, who want to grab this 100% (Guaranteed) job
opportunity followed by this compulsory industry oriented training with
upfront payment, send me your updated Resume in word format along with
your current visa status ASAP and we will guarantee you with 100 % job
opportunity (full time) after successful completion of the training
along with visa sponsorship …..

Shoot off your resume along with your visa status ASAP…
Looking forward to your reply, so that we can move accordingly before
time runs out…..

Urgent requirement for Oracle DBA

In case of any queries ,

Contact : Dennis Smith
Telephone : 732-546-3995 , 732-658-5270
Email : [email protected]
Website : http://www.hddimension.com
Company Name : HD Dimension Corp.
Company Address :
5 Independence Way
Suite 300
Princeton, NJ 08540

[Anonymous]

Over 50% of the engineering students at UC Irvine are foreigners. Are Americans losing seats to these folks or are we just not applying? If American’s with 96% GREs are losing seats to foreigners with 99% GREs, something aint right. I believe the real answer is that Americans just aren’t applying, and that is an even bigger shame.

[an]

I always thought USC = University of Spoiled Children :-). But UCI = University of Chinese Immigrants :-).

[nla]

How about USC?

University of Spoiled Chinese. j/k

[bobby]

Fat_Lazy, There have not been a quota for Asians for 30+ years now, if ever. Asians have the highest average GPA and test score of any group, Caucasians included.

[speedingpullet]

I taught basic math at both middle school and junior college level, and (gasp) didn’t allow calcuators in my class.

Its amazing the amount of panic you can engender by saying ‘put that away, you won’t need it’ – calculators have become a crutch for almost everybody.

OK – I was nice -once we got to the part where we used real numbers in decimal fractions, I let them use calculators.

Call me a push-over 😉

[kewp]

The beautiful irony of all this is that the over-educated Asian’s will all end up working for some lazy caucasian with an MBA.

That makes 3x as much!

[forsale_2007]

The beautiful irony of all this is that the over-educated Asian's will all end up working for some lazy caucasian with an MBA. That makes 3x as much!

Actually the irony is that those MBA's ultimately drive the company into the ground, only to be overrun by a company overseas in asia. Can you say Huawei?

Meanwhile those MBA’s also piss all their money out the door anyway. I can’t believe how many folks make more than me, but can’t even afford a house….I noticed just because you have an MBA doesn’t mean squat. Idiots are still idiots…BTW: i wouldn't be too happy if I were you with an MBA. They're a dime a dozen these days, and unless you are from top 10, it's pretty useless.

 

[forsale_2007]

The beautiful irony of all this is that the over-educated Asian's will all end up working for some lazy caucasian with an MBA. That makes 3x as much!

Actually the irony is that those MBA's ultimately drive the company into the ground, only to be overrun by a company overseas in asia. Can you say Huawei?

Meanwhile those MBA’s also piss all their money out the door anyway. I can’t believe how many folks make more than me, but can’t even afford a house….I noticed just because you have an MBA doesn’t mean squat. Idiots are still idiots…BTW: i wouldn't be too happy if I were you with an MBA. They're a dime a dozen these days, and unless you are from top 10, it's pretty useless.

 

[blahblahblah]

The beautiful irony of all this is that the over-educated Asian’s will all end up working for some lazy caucasian with an MBA.

If only. Many management positions are headed overseas as well. Many MBAs (especially the ones working for big companies) aren’t creative enough to think of any way to grow a business, so they just implement “cost-cutting” measures (outsourcing to China & India, etc…) to increase profit and grow the share price instead. As a result, the heart of many companies has relocated overseas, and guess what — the head is soon to follow. American managers can’t manage foreign assets effectively because of timezone problems, communication issues, etc… Is the solution to hire more Americans then? Of course not, the solution is to move management to India and China and limit American operations to marketing and sales.

[drunkle]

there used to be a ceiling on asian undergrads at ucla. ie., a max quota.

if alternative methods of arithimetic were taught, but the “show your work” requirement were still there, would it make a difference? of course. the short cuts are not being taught in the context, that’s all. but if you remember the rules regarding fractions, percents and decimals, you know that you can do the arithmetic manipulations. it’s applying those manipulations in order to create shortcuts that is not pointed out. ie., application and logic.

it’s surprising to see the percentage black population is so relatively low. i guess the crack/aids epidemics did their jobs.

[an]

drunkle, I concur. There was such thing called affirmative action. It was supposed to help other minorities but end up hurting the Asian students. I know people who had great grades, great SAT score and did a lot of extra curricular activities but was rejected from some UC school because there was enough Asian there already. Luckily, it was abolished.

Regarding alternative methods, I concur as well. However, it would help even more if they’re forced to do everything in their head. The more you practice that, the faster you become. That’s how people from overseas can do those calculation so quickly in their head. It’s through years of practice. When you make students show their work, you’re basically slow their thinking down because they have to write it down. Which would then limit their thinking to one calculation at a time.

[kewp]

You know, you guys can’t have it both ways!

If domestic jobs are getting outsourced, thats gonna hit domestic asian job seekers just as hard as anybody. Especially those in the IT jobs that can be most easily sent overseas.

[Cow_tipping]

Yea it will frock the IT job market locally and it actually has already done it. Which is why I say that we will not return to 97 prices for houses, we will drop waaaaaay beyond that. There were atleast 2-3 million more IT jobs in CA in 97 than there are now. And that is conservative. Remember these are high paid jobs – easily pushing 75K.
However as the IT market here tanks, my colleagues (I am an Injun IT engineer too BTW) as promptly dumping their upside down house back to the bank and walking with their credit dinged … but who cares, they are going to their new life In india where credit history here has no reach.
However 2-3 things are happening.
1. Companies in India dont pay more for IT and less for other engineers. because the govt does not do that, and many IT firms are all arms of other industrial giants and they pay ~ the same for a grade 2 engineer be it mechanical or civil or software. So rampant inflation all around.
2. They can work in India for $20 an hour because there have been no lay off’s no firings no nothing. A job was yours for life till you decide and move on. With american style lay off’s comming and it has begun to hit there too, people are going to stop working for peanuts.
3. We would never consider moving houses. In my life (20 years) in India I have maybe seen 2-3 people move from city to city after they have had kids etc. they move all the time but usually its 2-3 streets away or one suburb to the other. Face it, moving costs $$, it resets your cost of living (like losing your rent control house) and it creates a sense of resentment in people so they want more $$$.
4. Rupee (indian currency) has gained vs USD ~20% in the last 5 years, and 10% in the last 1 year.
5. Soon it will not make economic sense any more to out source. The good IT engineers are about to start costing the same in US or in India cos they are looking at europe as a viable option too.
Outsourcing is about to die a slow and painful death right on the heels of the house bubble. USD getting wortless, houses costing less and less, rents dropping and eventually wage deflation is about to occour in the US and will make outsourcing to India obsolete.
Cool.
Cow_tipping.

[Cow_tipping]

Yea it will frock the IT job market locally and it actually has already done it. Which is why I say that we will not return to 97 prices for houses, we will drop waaaaaay beyond that. There were atleast 2-3 million more IT jobs in CA in 97 than there are now. And that is conservative. Remember these are high paid jobs – easily pushing 75K.
However as the IT market here tanks, my colleagues (I am an Injun IT engineer too BTW) as promptly dumping their upside down house back to the bank and walking with their credit dinged … but who cares, they are going to their new life In india where credit history here has no reach.
However 2-3 things are happening.
1. Companies in India dont pay more for IT and less for other engineers. because the govt does not do that, and many IT firms are all arms of other industrial giants and they pay ~ the same for a grade 2 engineer be it mechanical or civil or software. So rampant inflation all around.
2. They can work in India for $20 an hour because there have been no lay off’s no firings no nothing. A job was yours for life till you decide and move on. With american style lay off’s comming and it has begun to hit there too, people are going to stop working for peanuts.
3. We would never consider moving houses. In my life (20 years) in India I have maybe seen 2-3 people move from city to city after they have had kids etc. they move all the time but usually its 2-3 streets away or one suburb to the other. Face it, moving costs $$, it resets your cost of living (like losing your rent control house) and it creates a sense of resentment in people so they want more $$$.
4. Rupee (indian currency) has gained vs USD ~20% in the last 5 years, and 10% in the last 1 year.
5. Soon it will not make economic sense any more to out source. The good IT engineers are about to start costing the same in US or in India cos they are looking at europe as a viable option too.
Outsourcing is about to die a slow and painful death right on the heels of the house bubble. USD getting wortless, houses costing less and less, rents dropping and eventually wage deflation is about to occour in the US and will make outsourcing to India obsolete.
Cool.
Cow_tipping.

[Coronita]

You know, you guys can't have it both ways!

If domestic jobs are getting outsourced, thats gonna hit domestic asian job seekers just as hard as anybody. Especially those in the IT jobs that can be most easily sent overseas.

 

…Unless your skills are better than others…. Or you work for a company that requires some 2nd language to bridge gaps.

Sorry Kewp, but unless you haven't noticed, some of the successful companies tech companies here in San Diego are run by foreigners or have foreign roots. Also, in tech field there’s a high probability your next boss/employer will be asian (like it or not). Simply because, these companies overseas are outgrowing and outperforming our domestic counterparts. Like someone previously alluded to Huawei is giving Cisco's run for the money, most electronics are made in China, and most software or a good portion of it is made in india.

As far as your MBA analogy. I'm really lost. Because actually I have a lot of relatives and buddies that graduated from Wharton, Stanford, Harvard…And usually top 10 mba's don't end up working at these normal companies in marketing or sales unless they totally foobared their MBA degree or want an easier life/family constraints….The big bucks are over on Wall Street, VC's, LBO shops, Management Consulting (Mckinsey,Bain,BCG), hedge funds, or computational finance on W.S.. And in those jobs, you can't suck at math period….(BTW: a good portion of these hires are computational finance/risk analysis/etc are indians/asians/russians/eastern europeans because of their computation abilities. Hedge funds also hire a good portion of these folks)

 

…..And if you're not in the top 10 mba's, it's pretty useless for these positions, because they won’t talk to you..You’re stuck with the traditional marketing/sales positions at a company…and really isn't significant enough to really be considering it to be your primary source of income imho. Last time I checked, none of the schools in local San Diego would i consider to have any relevant MBA program that would really make any significant salary differential. And talking to folks from USD, UCSD, SDSU who gave me what numbers they are seeing, seemed to confirm that. (Was considering an MBA here locally, but it wouldn’t really add value to what I currently do, and really wouldn’t open doors to things that would offer significant higher pay).

You have to understand what happened during the dot bomb..A lot of non-techies became techies, and then were pushed out because their skills really sucked. Then they went to go get their MBAs, so there's a flood of MBAs at all sorts of levels. Most of them are pretty useless. The only place where I see them add merit are at companies that stick to formality (typically defense companies)…But no one in their right mind would work at those companies because the pay in those companies suck overall…..I have nothing against MBAs. But just having one doesn't mean much these days unless you actually do something with it. And while you could probably learn some things from the program, I would say in general you could learn from everything whether you really had one or not. Plenty of immigrants I know here that run companies and businesses without an MBAs, and they significantly better than you and I ever will be.

 

[kewp]

Re:Cow_tipping

Can’t say I disagree with you! My only comment is that in my limited experience with outsourcing to India, they in turn were outsourcing to China! Unless you are on the bottom of the food chain getting outsourced will always be a risk.

Re:Fat_lazy_union…

That post was somewhat tongue in cheek, as I have little use for MBA’s myself. I will comment that working in higher education that yes the engineering depts are dominated by asian students. One should also keep in mind that globally, asians dominate the world population. If anything, they should be better represented in the global marketplace than they currently are.

However, in my experience the asian kids are in engineering because they believe its a lucrative career path and/or they are pressured by their parents. Lots of grade-grubbin, not alot of passion for the subject matter. This is in turn reflected by the higher rates of depression and suicide amongst this population.

But something I’ve noticed is that the real stars, the kids that love the work, are creative and challenge myself and my staff to keep up, are *exclusively* white-bread ‘mericans. They may be a minority, but its these kids that are going on to found the next Microsoft, Intel and Google. And going to be hiring lots of asian worker-bees to work for them!

I’ll feel otherwise when I’m using an Indian Operating system running on a Chinese microprocessor.

As for the ‘no one in their right mind’ comment, well I guess I’m insane then. I’ve chosen a job that I love, with great stability, benefits, and ton’s of perks. I walk to work, set my own hours, telecommute often and dress how I want. Sure, the pay ain’t great, but being crazy I’m going to suggest that money isn’t everything. I have a high quality of life and am making a genuine positive difference in the world.

I guess I could go work in Manhattan for a hedge fund and make six figures stealing money from old people, but to me immorality isn’t something to be associated with a ‘right mind’.

Food for thought!

[an]

However, in my experience the asian kids are in engineering because they believe its a lucrative career path and/or they are pressured by their parents. Lots of grade-grubbin, not alot of passion for the subject matter. This is in turn reflected by the higher rates of depression and suicide amongst this population.
I’ll have to disagree with this. I’m Asian and an engineer. Many if my friends are Asian and engineers as well. We weren’t pressured by our parents to be engineers. We were pressured by our parents to get higher education. They feel that education will open doors, but nothing specific to engineering. Most of us 2nd generation Asians who become engineers because we love it. We can very well study finance and get our MBA and make much more money, but we chose engineering because that’s our passion. I don’t know where you get depression and suicide from, but I don’t see that and most people I know are Asians who are engineers.

I’ll feel otherwise when I’m using an Indian Operating system running on a Chinese microprocessor.
Oh, but you are. I’m sure most of the development done on Windows OS are done by Indian engineers and most of the CPU that run those OS are made in China. It takes time to be #1 but it will happen. Just look at which company is now #1 automaker in the world. It’s the passionless Asian company.

[kewp]

asianautica,

Hmmm, I will agree that I see a difference between the 2nd generation asian students vs. the ones from overseas along the lines you describe. I wonder if it will take the third-gen to become fat, lazy americans? ;).

Re: the depression, suicide connection. It’s a very real issue unfortunately:

http://www.news.cornell.edu/stories/April06/Chung.ksr.html

http://www.imdiversity.com/villages/asian/family_lifestyle_traditions/pns_pressure_depression_0805.asp

http://www.cnn.com/2007/HEALTH/05/16/asian.suicides/index.html

Oh, but you are. I’m sure most of the development done on Windows OS are done by Indian engineers and most of the CPU that run those OS are made in China.

Sorry, I’m a Unix guy. Proudly produced in New Jersey and California. By American’s (I’ve met most of them in fact!).

I think there is world of difference between a culture that encourages innovation vs. one of replication (not passing judgment either way). American seems to excel at the former at the expense of the latter where Asia is vice-versa. Toyota is a great example, Ford pioneered the personal automobile, where Toyota perfected the production and distribution of it.

The world is a better place for having both, of course.

As an aside, I think bringing Japan into the discussion is very interesting. Much of the griping I hear about China and India reminds me of what folks were saying about Japan when I was a youngster. Last I checked things didn’t exactly turn out in their favor. I suspect the average American enjoys a higher quality of life due to our respective countries relationship, vs. the average Japanese.

[Cow_tipping]

Unix guy here too. More CA than NJ though and freaking brilliantly I have managed to update myself very very very little in the last 15 years. I did the same damn thing 15 years ago at a different company supporting a different bank. Same shit, different flavor.
I also believe India and china are going the way of Japan soon. Their costs are rising (unless they are pegging to the dollar and choking themsleves)
Cool.
Cow_tipping.

[Cow_tipping]

Unix guy here too. More CA than NJ though and freaking brilliantly I have managed to update myself very very very little in the last 15 years. I did the same damn thing 15 years ago at a different company supporting a different bank. Same shit, different flavor.
I also believe India and china are going the way of Japan soon. Their costs are rising (unless they are pegging to the dollar and choking themsleves)
Cool.
Cow_tipping.

[Coronita]

asianautica, Hmmm, I will agree that I see a difference between the 2nd generation asian students vs. the ones from overseas along the lines you describe. I wonder if it will take the third-gen to become fat, lazy americans? ;). Re: the depression, suicide connection. It's a very real issue unfortunately: http://www.news.cornell.edu/stories/April06/Chung.ksr.html http://www.imdiversity.com/villages/asian/family_lifestyle_traditions/pn… http://www.cnn.com/2007/HEALTH/05/16/asian.suicides/index.html Oh, but you are. I'm sure most of the development done on Windows OS are done by Indian engineers and most of the CPU that run those OS are made in China. Sorry, I'm a Unix guy. Proudly produced in New Jersey and California. By American's (I've met most of them in fact!). I think there is world of difference between a culture that encourages innovation vs. one of replication (not passing judgment either way). American seems to excel at the former at the expense of the latter where Asia is vice-versa. Toyota is a great example, Ford pioneered the personal automobile, where Toyota perfected the production and distribution of it. The world is a better place for having both, of course. As an aside, I think bringing Japan into the discussion is very interesting. Much of the griping I hear about China and India reminds me of what folks were saying about Japan when I was a youngster. Last I checked things didn't exactly turn out in their favor. I suspect the average American enjoys a higher quality of life due to our respective countries relationship, vs. the average Japanese.

 

Actually, I think what you don't understand…some 1st generations went into engineering because it was the best opportunity for them. See, unlike most americans, most 1st immigrants from asia had to work their ass off to get over here. Second, once here, there's sort of a language gap/cultural gap. My observation about american workers is that for every 1 small thing they do, they bullshit about it by saying 10 things, no matter how simple it is. On the other hand, most asian immigrants I noticed would do 10 simply things and usually don't think it's that big a deal to even come up with 1 bullshit thing to say.

What you call lack of inspiration quite is commonly the issue with non-asian management who equate no bullshit 1st gen immigrants with lack of inspiration, particularly in a heavy bureacratic companies like defense companies.1st generation immigrants don't know how to play politics in the american company…Which is why some of them leave and go to competitor company from their native land. Why do you think companies like Huawei have been able to catch up to Cisco so quickly? Simple…Quick knowledge transfer. And it's going to get a lot worse.

Furthermore, speaking from relative's experience who were the 1st generation, those immigrants quickly learned that while doing a good job is important, salaries pretty much are there just to pay the bills…Most of the ones i grew up lived frugality to be able to stick their income into assets other means. And they have the intelligence to pull this off as opposed to your dipshit MBA worker. Most americans are lousy money managers and piss off whatever they earn, however much they earn. Wanna know why you see a lot of otherwise normal working class asians in Carmel Valley, LJ? Because they manage money better than your average american, even though they may make less.

As a 2nd generation, I have the work ethics of my previous generation, while also understanding the importance of "playing the game." So while detest people that have a 10:1 bullshit ratio, I myself play closer to 5:1 bullshit ratio so that I don't get screwed by a dipshit MBA dude. Plus I have all the cultural advantageous to bridge what gap with our satellite offices. And pretty much, being able to see through the 10:1 bullshitter, I won't hire those people regardless of what ethnic background they have..I also wouldn't be caught dead working in a heavily political company where the politics aren’t in my favor.. One reason why I would never work at a defense company is because when I interned there I found the job to be (1) boring (2) moved too slow (3) and run by too many bureacratic baffoons- more so than other companies in other tech fields and (4) the pay was crap. Plus i didn't like the idea of my future indirectly being dependent on how much the U.S. government wanted to spend on toys any given year…1st gen immigrants are pretty much more willing to put up with that crap…

Actually, one advantage of working for a defense company is that you'd have a greater chance of be laidoff due to a shrinking defense budget than being outsourced. Don’t believe me? Talk to folks that work in those big defense companies here in San Diego that are waiting for big contracts from the Gov lately.

As far as the third generation. Yeah, my kid will probably end up being fatter and lazier. I have to say, I’m not even close to the type of frugality of my parents….side affect of being raised here.

And lastly, I have nothing against caucasians. The few that made it into my engineering were brilliant and creative.

[drunkle]

asia is full of non engineering people. you dont go to japan or korea or china and run into egg heads everywhere.

indians and pakistanis aren’t really asian. siberians are more asian than indian or pakistanis, at least, in the mongoloid respect. imo.

talking about asians in generalities is funny. my mailman was asian, he was a nice guy…

[speedingpullet]

drunkle said:
indians and pakistanis aren’t really asian. siberians are more asian than indian or pakistanis, at least, in the mongoloid respect. imo.

Depends on where you come from Drunkle.

“Asian”, in the UK, is someone exclusively from the Indian Subcontinent – ie Sri Lankan, Indian, Bangladeshi, Pakistani, and sometimes also Nepali and/or Bhutani.

People from parts of the world that Americans call “Asia” are normally called by thier country of ancestry/origin – ie Laotian, Vietnamese, Japanese, etc..

When India became independant, the UK saw a huge amount of immigrants from that part of the world – and not so many from what the US considers ‘Asia’. London does have the largest Vietnamese population in Europe, but immigrants from (US) ‘Asia’ are very few in comparison to the ones from the Indian Subcontinent.

Anyway, FYI

[speedingpullet]

drunkle said:
indians and pakistanis aren’t really asian. siberians are more asian than indian or pakistanis, at least, in the mongoloid respect. imo.

Depends on where you come from Drunkle.

“Asian”, in the UK, is someone exclusively from the Indian Subcontinent – ie Sri Lankan, Indian, Bangladeshi, Pakistani, and sometimes also Nepali and/or Bhutani.

People from parts of the world that Americans call “Asia” are normally called by thier country of ancestry/origin – ie Laotian, Vietnamese, Japanese, etc..

When India became independant, the UK saw a huge amount of immigrants from that part of the world – and not so many from what the US considers ‘Asia’. London does have the largest Vietnamese population in Europe, but immigrants from (US) ‘Asia’ are very few in comparison to the ones from the Indian Subcontinent.

Anyway, FYI

[drunkle]

asia is full of non engineering people. you dont go to japan or korea or china and run into egg heads everywhere.

indians and pakistanis aren’t really asian. siberians are more asian than indian or pakistanis, at least, in the mongoloid respect. imo.

talking about asians in generalities is funny. my mailman was asian, he was a nice guy…

[Coronita]

asianautica, Hmmm, I will agree that I see a difference between the 2nd generation asian students vs. the ones from overseas along the lines you describe. I wonder if it will take the third-gen to become fat, lazy americans? ;). Re: the depression, suicide connection. It's a very real issue unfortunately: http://www.news.cornell.edu/stories/April06/Chung.ksr.html http://www.imdiversity.com/villages/asian/family_lifestyle_traditions/pn… http://www.cnn.com/2007/HEALTH/05/16/asian.suicides/index.html Oh, but you are. I'm sure most of the development done on Windows OS are done by Indian engineers and most of the CPU that run those OS are made in China. Sorry, I'm a Unix guy. Proudly produced in New Jersey and California. By American's (I've met most of them in fact!). I think there is world of difference between a culture that encourages innovation vs. one of replication (not passing judgment either way). American seems to excel at the former at the expense of the latter where Asia is vice-versa. Toyota is a great example, Ford pioneered the personal automobile, where Toyota perfected the production and distribution of it. The world is a better place for having both, of course. As an aside, I think bringing Japan into the discussion is very interesting. Much of the griping I hear about China and India reminds me of what folks were saying about Japan when I was a youngster. Last I checked things didn't exactly turn out in their favor. I suspect the average American enjoys a higher quality of life due to our respective countries relationship, vs. the average Japanese.

 

Actually, I think what you don't understand…some 1st generations went into engineering because it was the best opportunity for them. See, unlike most americans, most 1st immigrants from asia had to work their ass off to get over here. Second, once here, there's sort of a language gap/cultural gap. My observation about american workers is that for every 1 small thing they do, they bullshit about it by saying 10 things, no matter how simple it is. On the other hand, most asian immigrants I noticed would do 10 simply things and usually don't think it's that big a deal to even come up with 1 bullshit thing to say.

What you call lack of inspiration quite is commonly the issue with non-asian management who equate no bullshit 1st gen immigrants with lack of inspiration, particularly in a heavy bureacratic companies like defense companies.1st generation immigrants don't know how to play politics in the american company…Which is why some of them leave and go to competitor company from their native land. Why do you think companies like Huawei have been able to catch up to Cisco so quickly? Simple…Quick knowledge transfer. And it's going to get a lot worse.

Furthermore, speaking from relative's experience who were the 1st generation, those immigrants quickly learned that while doing a good job is important, salaries pretty much are there just to pay the bills…Most of the ones i grew up lived frugality to be able to stick their income into assets other means. And they have the intelligence to pull this off as opposed to your dipshit MBA worker. Most americans are lousy money managers and piss off whatever they earn, however much they earn. Wanna know why you see a lot of otherwise normal working class asians in Carmel Valley, LJ? Because they manage money better than your average american, even though they may make less.

As a 2nd generation, I have the work ethics of my previous generation, while also understanding the importance of "playing the game." So while detest people that have a 10:1 bullshit ratio, I myself play closer to 5:1 bullshit ratio so that I don't get screwed by a dipshit MBA dude. Plus I have all the cultural advantageous to bridge what gap with our satellite offices. And pretty much, being able to see through the 10:1 bullshitter, I won't hire those people regardless of what ethnic background they have..I also wouldn't be caught dead working in a heavily political company where the politics aren’t in my favor.. One reason why I would never work at a defense company is because when I interned there I found the job to be (1) boring (2) moved too slow (3) and run by too many bureacratic baffoons- more so than other companies in other tech fields and (4) the pay was crap. Plus i didn't like the idea of my future indirectly being dependent on how much the U.S. government wanted to spend on toys any given year…1st gen immigrants are pretty much more willing to put up with that crap…

Actually, one advantage of working for a defense company is that you'd have a greater chance of be laidoff due to a shrinking defense budget than being outsourced. Don’t believe me? Talk to folks that work in those big defense companies here in San Diego that are waiting for big contracts from the Gov lately.

As far as the third generation. Yeah, my kid will probably end up being fatter and lazier. I have to say, I’m not even close to the type of frugality of my parents….side affect of being raised here.

And lastly, I have nothing against caucasians. The few that made it into my engineering were brilliant and creative.

[an]

kewp, those articles basically showed the Asian culture drive to succeed through higher education. I don’t see how that’s related to engineering, especially us second generation Asian who went into engineering because we want to, not because we have to.

You think Toyota replicate? Last I check, GM, Ford, Chrysler all tried to replicate Toyota’s manufacturing efficiency. Trying to copy their processes. You can’t innovate until you know your fundamental. It great that Ford manufactured the first car. Coming first doesn’t mean you’re the only one who know how to innovate. Tell me which car company first produced hybrid cars? Which company able to develop more efficient cars? Answers to both those questions are Japanese cars. Japanese auto makers took what Ford started and took that to the next level. That, my friend is innovation.

[4plexowner]

It is somewhat amusing that Americans taught the Japanese about quality control after WWII (Google Dr. W. Edwards Deming) and the Japanese ended up kicking America’s ass as far as producing a quality product at a reasonable price is concerned

At one point, if I remember correctly, the Japanese government required the automakers to do joint research – new technology could be taken at some point and used by each of the companies – I don’t know if this still happens – I think the idea was to prevent the wasting of resources that would occur by having 5 different companies researching the most aerodynamic way to implement windshield wipers (for example)

~

One of the biggest challenges we (Americans) face, IMO, is our own arrogance

We assume that if we didn’t invent it here, it can’t be a decent product – or if it is a decent product, that ‘they’ somehow copied or stole our technology

The underlying arrogance in this type of thinking is that we (Americans) are somehow superior to the rest of the world

To make it worse, we totally ignore history and assume that if it didn’t happen in our lifetimes it doesn’t matter – perhaps this is where a lot of the “it’s different this time” thinking comes from

[4plexowner]

It is somewhat amusing that Americans taught the Japanese about quality control after WWII (Google Dr. W. Edwards Deming) and the Japanese ended up kicking America’s ass as far as producing a quality product at a reasonable price is concerned

At one point, if I remember correctly, the Japanese government required the automakers to do joint research – new technology could be taken at some point and used by each of the companies – I don’t know if this still happens – I think the idea was to prevent the wasting of resources that would occur by having 5 different companies researching the most aerodynamic way to implement windshield wipers (for example)

~

One of the biggest challenges we (Americans) face, IMO, is our own arrogance

We assume that if we didn’t invent it here, it can’t be a decent product – or if it is a decent product, that ‘they’ somehow copied or stole our technology

The underlying arrogance in this type of thinking is that we (Americans) are somehow superior to the rest of the world

To make it worse, we totally ignore history and assume that if it didn’t happen in our lifetimes it doesn’t matter – perhaps this is where a lot of the “it’s different this time” thinking comes from

[kewp]

Tell me which car company first produced hybrid cars?

That would be Lohner-Porche in 1898.

The first regenerative-braking hybrid (that all modern hybrid designs are based off of) was designed by Electrical Engineer David Arthurs around 1978. These and more fun facts about the history of technology are available at Wikipedia (another ‘merkin innovation!)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Petroleum_electric_hybrid_vehicle#History

Anyways, the point I’m making is that for all this American bashing I see we are still world-leaders from a technological standpoint. And have been for at least the last 100 years. And I think *much* of it has to do with encouraging independence, innovation and creativity, even at the expense of not producing as many high-quality worker bee’s as Asia does.

Not bad given North America is fourth-largest in population after Asia, Africa, and Europe. Maybe the next hundred years will be different, but I have yet to see much evidence of it.

Btw, we must be doing something right, as Asians are still immigrating and enrolling in US uni’s in record numbers!

[an]

Thanks for the link. So a non-American invented the hybrid system and a non-American took that to the next level and mass produced it. I don’t see your point. You mentioned “Ford pioneered the personal automobile”. But they’re not the one who invented the automobile. They’re just the first to mass produce the automobile. I don’t see how that’s any different than Toyota/Honda taking what GM/Ford did to the next level? You need innovation to improve. Innovation is not only limit to inventing new products.

Saying because America is world-leaders from a technological standpoint the last 100 years doesn’t make it true that it’ll be a technological leader the next 100 years. Tell me who’s the technological leader 200 years ago?

There’s no argument from me that our university structure is superior to the typical Asian counter part, for now. Saying the university is great doesn’t back up your point though. Look at who’s enrolling in those universities in engineering majors.

[kewp]

I don’t see your point.

My point is that hybrid cars are an entirely Western innovation.

I’m not doubting that Japan is currently the world-leader in getting these into the hands of American Consumers (thanks in no small part to Japanese government regulation). But they are still capitalizing on what is ultimately an American design.

There’s no argument from me that our university structure is superior to the typical Asian counter part, for now. Saying the university is great doesn’t back up your point though. Look at who’s enrolling in those universities in engineering majors.

Yes, but Asian’s account for 60% of the worlds population. And we clearly have the best engineering schools combined with the best opportunities for graduates to make the most money in the global economy. Hence from a purely statistical (not cultural) standpoint it comes as no surprise to me that our institutes of higher education are loaded with foreigners (or their second-gen descendants).

American students don’t have to compete against just the best of their peers anymore. They are against the best the *world* has to offer. And from my experience they are doing about as well as can be expected, given the amount of competition.

[4plexowner]

China has more honor students than we have students

[Anonymous]

Let’s just quit beating around the bush. Asians, in general, have genetically superior brains.

[Coronita]

Let's just quit beating around the bush. Asians, in general, have genetically superior brains

 

Oh boy… Let's not go there…

 

Kewp, Don't get me wrong. I think America has some of the most brilliant/creative people. Let's just take a look at raw noble prize winners. Very few from asia and other countries relative to the ones here…..

BUT….

I think the average Americans are deluded in thinking they're better the other people in other parts or the world. There are a handle of people that are truely brilliant. But most Americans (me included) are not that person. If you take a look at the average american, they do a pretty piss ass job at managing money.  I don't necessarily blame them, because our government isn't exactly a role model. And if you take our systems, several americans really don't take their education seriously until it's too late…Just my observation.

 

[Coronita]

Let's just quit beating around the bush. Asians, in general, have genetically superior brains

 

Oh boy… Let's not go there…

 

Kewp, Don't get me wrong. I think America has some of the most brilliant/creative people. Let's just take a look at raw noble prize winners. Very few from asia and other countries relative to the ones here…..

BUT….

I think the average Americans are deluded in thinking they're better the other people in other parts or the world. There are a handle of people that are truely brilliant. But most Americans (me included) are not that person. If you take a look at the average american, they do a pretty piss ass job at managing money.  I don't necessarily blame them, because our government isn't exactly a role model. And if you take our systems, several americans really don't take their education seriously until it's too late…Just my observation.

 

[Anonymous]

Let’s just quit beating around the bush. Asians, in general, have genetically superior brains.

[kewp]

China has more honor students than we have students

US population == 301,924,790

China’s population == 1,319,175,330

(courtesy of population clocks)

Having an additional billion people sure helps matters!

[kewp]

China has more honor students than we have students

US population == 301,924,790

China’s population == 1,319,175,330

(courtesy of population clocks)

Having an additional billion people sure helps matters!

[4plexowner]

China has more honor students than we have students

[an]

My point is that hybrid cars are an entirely Western innovation.

I’m not doubting that Japan is currently the world-leader in getting these into the hands of American Consumers (thanks in no small part to Japanese government regulation). But they are still capitalizing on what is ultimately an American design.
Western innovation is not equal to American design. It wasn’t design in America. I still don’t see your point. You stated that I think there is world of difference between a culture that encourages innovation vs. one of replication (not passing judgment either way). American seems to excel at the former at the expense of the latter where Asia is vice-versa. So you’re saying Asian countries excel in replication and not innovation. Yet, all the innovations that comes into play to get us American the toys we want at a decent price were all done by Asian countries.

Yes, but Asian’s account for 60% of the worlds population.
But not all of those 60% can afford to go over here. Don’t forget that majority of those 60% are in extreme poverty. Those people make homeless here look rich. So I don’t get your argument here.

And we clearly have the best engineering schools combined with the best opportunities for graduates to make the most money in the global economy. Hence from a purely statistical (not cultural) standpoint it comes as no surprise to me that our institutes of higher education are loaded with foreigners (or their second-gen descendants)
Didn’t I say I agree with you that we have one of the best engineering schools. That’s why people from those Asian countries come over here. They didn’t want to wait for their country to develop a university that will rival the US universities, so they come here to take advantage of the great universities here. It takes time to build a great education system. Asian countries were in a very different state 100 years ago compare to now.

[an]

My point is that hybrid cars are an entirely Western innovation.

I’m not doubting that Japan is currently the world-leader in getting these into the hands of American Consumers (thanks in no small part to Japanese government regulation). But they are still capitalizing on what is ultimately an American design.
Western innovation is not equal to American design. It wasn’t design in America. I still don’t see your point. You stated that I think there is world of difference between a culture that encourages innovation vs. one of replication (not passing judgment either way). American seems to excel at the former at the expense of the latter where Asia is vice-versa. So you’re saying Asian countries excel in replication and not innovation. Yet, all the innovations that comes into play to get us American the toys we want at a decent price were all done by Asian countries.

Yes, but Asian’s account for 60% of the worlds population.
But not all of those 60% can afford to go over here. Don’t forget that majority of those 60% are in extreme poverty. Those people make homeless here look rich. So I don’t get your argument here.

And we clearly have the best engineering schools combined with the best opportunities for graduates to make the most money in the global economy. Hence from a purely statistical (not cultural) standpoint it comes as no surprise to me that our institutes of higher education are loaded with foreigners (or their second-gen descendants)
Didn’t I say I agree with you that we have one of the best engineering schools. That’s why people from those Asian countries come over here. They didn’t want to wait for their country to develop a university that will rival the US universities, so they come here to take advantage of the great universities here. It takes time to build a great education system. Asian countries were in a very different state 100 years ago compare to now.

[Ash Housewares]

I think the distinction made earlier (can’t recall who brought it up) about innovative societies versus societies who just copy what others are doing is the key thing here.

The difference boils down to whether or not a country has laws and enforcement policies to protect intellectual property. China is notorious for piracy and corporate espionage. Until intellectual property is taken seriously over in China, companies there have little incentive to innovate, thus you will not be running a PC with chips designed by a Chinese company anytime soon. Similarly, you won’t be taking any medications developed in China in the foreseeable future. There’s just no incentive to innovate when it doesn’t lead to a competitive advantage due to copying.

[Ash Housewares]

I think the distinction made earlier (can’t recall who brought it up) about innovative societies versus societies who just copy what others are doing is the key thing here.

The difference boils down to whether or not a country has laws and enforcement policies to protect intellectual property. China is notorious for piracy and corporate espionage. Until intellectual property is taken seriously over in China, companies there have little incentive to innovate, thus you will not be running a PC with chips designed by a Chinese company anytime soon. Similarly, you won’t be taking any medications developed in China in the foreseeable future. There’s just no incentive to innovate when it doesn’t lead to a competitive advantage due to copying.

[kewp]

I don’t see your point.

My point is that hybrid cars are an entirely Western innovation.

I’m not doubting that Japan is currently the world-leader in getting these into the hands of American Consumers (thanks in no small part to Japanese government regulation). But they are still capitalizing on what is ultimately an American design.

There’s no argument from me that our university structure is superior to the typical Asian counter part, for now. Saying the university is great doesn’t back up your point though. Look at who’s enrolling in those universities in engineering majors.

Yes, but Asian’s account for 60% of the worlds population. And we clearly have the best engineering schools combined with the best opportunities for graduates to make the most money in the global economy. Hence from a purely statistical (not cultural) standpoint it comes as no surprise to me that our institutes of higher education are loaded with foreigners (or their second-gen descendants).

American students don’t have to compete against just the best of their peers anymore. They are against the best the *world* has to offer. And from my experience they are doing about as well as can be expected, given the amount of competition.

[an]

Thanks for the link. So a non-American invented the hybrid system and a non-American took that to the next level and mass produced it. I don’t see your point. You mentioned “Ford pioneered the personal automobile”. But they’re not the one who invented the automobile. They’re just the first to mass produce the automobile. I don’t see how that’s any different than Toyota/Honda taking what GM/Ford did to the next level? You need innovation to improve. Innovation is not only limit to inventing new products.

Saying because America is world-leaders from a technological standpoint the last 100 years doesn’t make it true that it’ll be a technological leader the next 100 years. Tell me who’s the technological leader 200 years ago?

There’s no argument from me that our university structure is superior to the typical Asian counter part, for now. Saying the university is great doesn’t back up your point though. Look at who’s enrolling in those universities in engineering majors.

[kewp]

Tell me which car company first produced hybrid cars?

That would be Lohner-Porche in 1898.

The first regenerative-braking hybrid (that all modern hybrid designs are based off of) was designed by Electrical Engineer David Arthurs around 1978. These and more fun facts about the history of technology are available at Wikipedia (another ‘merkin innovation!)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Petroleum_electric_hybrid_vehicle#History

Anyways, the point I’m making is that for all this American bashing I see we are still world-leaders from a technological standpoint. And have been for at least the last 100 years. And I think *much* of it has to do with encouraging independence, innovation and creativity, even at the expense of not producing as many high-quality worker bee’s as Asia does.

Not bad given North America is fourth-largest in population after Asia, Africa, and Europe. Maybe the next hundred years will be different, but I have yet to see much evidence of it.

Btw, we must be doing something right, as Asians are still immigrating and enrolling in US uni’s in record numbers!

[an]

kewp, those articles basically showed the Asian culture drive to succeed through higher education. I don’t see how that’s related to engineering, especially us second generation Asian who went into engineering because we want to, not because we have to.

You think Toyota replicate? Last I check, GM, Ford, Chrysler all tried to replicate Toyota’s manufacturing efficiency. Trying to copy their processes. You can’t innovate until you know your fundamental. It great that Ford manufactured the first car. Coming first doesn’t mean you’re the only one who know how to innovate. Tell me which car company first produced hybrid cars? Which company able to develop more efficient cars? Answers to both those questions are Japanese cars. Japanese auto makers took what Ford started and took that to the next level. That, my friend is innovation.

[blahblahblah]

Sorry, I’m a Unix guy. Proudly produced in New Jersey and California. By American’s (I’ve met most of them in fact!).

Hahaha. Are you using UNIX on an old PDP/11 or are you running Linux on your PC? Let’s take a close look at Linux, shall we?

Kernel: From Finland
GNOME: From Mexico
KDE: From Germany
Device Drivers: From all over the world
Toolchain: GNU (mostly US but contributions from all over)

etc… etc… etc…

UNIX was a great system and it is still has a big impact on the world but it doesn’t belong to CA and NJ anymore than the internet does. The rest of the world has taken the ball and they are sprinting down the field while we’re all busy giving each other high-fives for inventing this s**t 30 FREAKING YEARS AGO.

Americans are gonna be like those old Brits you see drinking themselves to death in the pubs, talking about how great their empire used to be.

[4plexowner]

For some insight into the future of America, take a look at the top 5 and the bottom 5 items on the list

https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/rankorder/2187rank.html

[an]

4plexowner, those are some very sobering numbers.

[an]

4plexowner, those are some very sobering numbers.

[4plexowner]

For some insight into the future of America, take a look at the top 5 and the bottom 5 items on the list

https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/rankorder/2187rank.html

[blahblahblah]

Sorry, I’m a Unix guy. Proudly produced in New Jersey and California. By American’s (I’ve met most of them in fact!).

Hahaha. Are you using UNIX on an old PDP/11 or are you running Linux on your PC? Let’s take a close look at Linux, shall we?

Kernel: From Finland
GNOME: From Mexico
KDE: From Germany
Device Drivers: From all over the world
Toolchain: GNU (mostly US but contributions from all over)

etc… etc… etc…

UNIX was a great system and it is still has a big impact on the world but it doesn’t belong to CA and NJ anymore than the internet does. The rest of the world has taken the ball and they are sprinting down the field while we’re all busy giving each other high-fives for inventing this s**t 30 FREAKING YEARS AGO.

Americans are gonna be like those old Brits you see drinking themselves to death in the pubs, talking about how great their empire used to be.

[kewp]

asianautica,

Hmmm, I will agree that I see a difference between the 2nd generation asian students vs. the ones from overseas along the lines you describe. I wonder if it will take the third-gen to become fat, lazy americans? ;).

Re: the depression, suicide connection. It’s a very real issue unfortunately:

http://www.news.cornell.edu/stories/April06/Chung.ksr.html

http://www.imdiversity.com/villages/asian/family_lifestyle_traditions/pns_pressure_depression_0805.asp

http://www.cnn.com/2007/HEALTH/05/16/asian.suicides/index.html

Oh, but you are. I’m sure most of the development done on Windows OS are done by Indian engineers and most of the CPU that run those OS are made in China.

Sorry, I’m a Unix guy. Proudly produced in New Jersey and California. By American’s (I’ve met most of them in fact!).

I think there is world of difference between a culture that encourages innovation vs. one of replication (not passing judgment either way). American seems to excel at the former at the expense of the latter where Asia is vice-versa. Toyota is a great example, Ford pioneered the personal automobile, where Toyota perfected the production and distribution of it.

The world is a better place for having both, of course.

As an aside, I think bringing Japan into the discussion is very interesting. Much of the griping I hear about China and India reminds me of what folks were saying about Japan when I was a youngster. Last I checked things didn’t exactly turn out in their favor. I suspect the average American enjoys a higher quality of life due to our respective countries relationship, vs. the average Japanese.

[an]

However, in my experience the asian kids are in engineering because they believe its a lucrative career path and/or they are pressured by their parents. Lots of grade-grubbin, not alot of passion for the subject matter. This is in turn reflected by the higher rates of depression and suicide amongst this population.
I’ll have to disagree with this. I’m Asian and an engineer. Many if my friends are Asian and engineers as well. We weren’t pressured by our parents to be engineers. We were pressured by our parents to get higher education. They feel that education will open doors, but nothing specific to engineering. Most of us 2nd generation Asians who become engineers because we love it. We can very well study finance and get our MBA and make much more money, but we chose engineering because that’s our passion. I don’t know where you get depression and suicide from, but I don’t see that and most people I know are Asians who are engineers.

I’ll feel otherwise when I’m using an Indian Operating system running on a Chinese microprocessor.
Oh, but you are. I’m sure most of the development done on Windows OS are done by Indian engineers and most of the CPU that run those OS are made in China. It takes time to be #1 but it will happen. Just look at which company is now #1 automaker in the world. It’s the passionless Asian company.

[Coronita]

I guess I could go work in Manhattan for a hedge fund and make six figures stealing money from old people, but to me immorality isn't something to be associated with a 'right mind'. Food for thought!

 

Food for thought: how's managing a hedge fund that takes/loses money from “investors” who willingly took the risk any different from folks here who sold homes to dumb buyers during the peek, knowing that the buyer(s) can’t afford the home and will eventually lose their home, only to buy it back dirt cheap??

[Coronita]

I guess I could go work in Manhattan for a hedge fund and make six figures stealing money from old people, but to me immorality isn't something to be associated with a 'right mind'. Food for thought!

 

Food for thought: how's managing a hedge fund that takes/loses money from “investors” who willingly took the risk any different from folks here who sold homes to dumb buyers during the peek, knowing that the buyer(s) can’t afford the home and will eventually lose their home, only to buy it back dirt cheap??

[kewp]

Re:Cow_tipping

Can’t say I disagree with you! My only comment is that in my limited experience with outsourcing to India, they in turn were outsourcing to China! Unless you are on the bottom of the food chain getting outsourced will always be a risk.

Re:Fat_lazy_union…

That post was somewhat tongue in cheek, as I have little use for MBA’s myself. I will comment that working in higher education that yes the engineering depts are dominated by asian students. One should also keep in mind that globally, asians dominate the world population. If anything, they should be better represented in the global marketplace than they currently are.

However, in my experience the asian kids are in engineering because they believe its a lucrative career path and/or they are pressured by their parents. Lots of grade-grubbin, not alot of passion for the subject matter. This is in turn reflected by the higher rates of depression and suicide amongst this population.

But something I’ve noticed is that the real stars, the kids that love the work, are creative and challenge myself and my staff to keep up, are *exclusively* white-bread ‘mericans. They may be a minority, but its these kids that are going on to found the next Microsoft, Intel and Google. And going to be hiring lots of asian worker-bees to work for them!

I’ll feel otherwise when I’m using an Indian Operating system running on a Chinese microprocessor.

As for the ‘no one in their right mind’ comment, well I guess I’m insane then. I’ve chosen a job that I love, with great stability, benefits, and ton’s of perks. I walk to work, set my own hours, telecommute often and dress how I want. Sure, the pay ain’t great, but being crazy I’m going to suggest that money isn’t everything. I have a high quality of life and am making a genuine positive difference in the world.

I guess I could go work in Manhattan for a hedge fund and make six figures stealing money from old people, but to me immorality isn’t something to be associated with a ‘right mind’.

Food for thought!

[Coronita]

You know, you guys can't have it both ways!

If domestic jobs are getting outsourced, thats gonna hit domestic asian job seekers just as hard as anybody. Especially those in the IT jobs that can be most easily sent overseas.

 

…Unless your skills are better than others…. Or you work for a company that requires some 2nd language to bridge gaps.

Sorry Kewp, but unless you haven't noticed, some of the successful companies tech companies here in San Diego are run by foreigners or have foreign roots. Also, in tech field there’s a high probability your next boss/employer will be asian (like it or not). Simply because, these companies overseas are outgrowing and outperforming our domestic counterparts. Like someone previously alluded to Huawei is giving Cisco's run for the money, most electronics are made in China, and most software or a good portion of it is made in india.

As far as your MBA analogy. I'm really lost. Because actually I have a lot of relatives and buddies that graduated from Wharton, Stanford, Harvard…And usually top 10 mba's don't end up working at these normal companies in marketing or sales unless they totally foobared their MBA degree or want an easier life/family constraints….The big bucks are over on Wall Street, VC's, LBO shops, Management Consulting (Mckinsey,Bain,BCG), hedge funds, or computational finance on W.S.. And in those jobs, you can't suck at math period….(BTW: a good portion of these hires are computational finance/risk analysis/etc are indians/asians/russians/eastern europeans because of their computation abilities. Hedge funds also hire a good portion of these folks)

 

…..And if you're not in the top 10 mba's, it's pretty useless for these positions, because they won’t talk to you..You’re stuck with the traditional marketing/sales positions at a company…and really isn't significant enough to really be considering it to be your primary source of income imho. Last time I checked, none of the schools in local San Diego would i consider to have any relevant MBA program that would really make any significant salary differential. And talking to folks from USD, UCSD, SDSU who gave me what numbers they are seeing, seemed to confirm that. (Was considering an MBA here locally, but it wouldn’t really add value to what I currently do, and really wouldn’t open doors to things that would offer significant higher pay).

You have to understand what happened during the dot bomb..A lot of non-techies became techies, and then were pushed out because their skills really sucked. Then they went to go get their MBAs, so there's a flood of MBAs at all sorts of levels. Most of them are pretty useless. The only place where I see them add merit are at companies that stick to formality (typically defense companies)…But no one in their right mind would work at those companies because the pay in those companies suck overall…..I have nothing against MBAs. But just having one doesn't mean much these days unless you actually do something with it. And while you could probably learn some things from the program, I would say in general you could learn from everything whether you really had one or not. Plenty of immigrants I know here that run companies and businesses without an MBAs, and they significantly better than you and I ever will be.

 

[kewp]

You know, you guys can’t have it both ways!

If domestic jobs are getting outsourced, thats gonna hit domestic asian job seekers just as hard as anybody. Especially those in the IT jobs that can be most easily sent overseas.

[an]

drunkle, I concur. There was such thing called affirmative action. It was supposed to help other minorities but end up hurting the Asian students. I know people who had great grades, great SAT score and did a lot of extra curricular activities but was rejected from some UC school because there was enough Asian there already. Luckily, it was abolished.

Regarding alternative methods, I concur as well. However, it would help even more if they’re forced to do everything in their head. The more you practice that, the faster you become. That’s how people from overseas can do those calculation so quickly in their head. It’s through years of practice. When you make students show their work, you’re basically slow their thinking down because they have to write it down. Which would then limit their thinking to one calculation at a time.

[drunkle]

there used to be a ceiling on asian undergrads at ucla. ie., a max quota.

if alternative methods of arithimetic were taught, but the “show your work” requirement were still there, would it make a difference? of course. the short cuts are not being taught in the context, that’s all. but if you remember the rules regarding fractions, percents and decimals, you know that you can do the arithmetic manipulations. it’s applying those manipulations in order to create shortcuts that is not pointed out. ie., application and logic.

it’s surprising to see the percentage black population is so relatively low. i guess the crack/aids epidemics did their jobs.

[blahblahblah]

The beautiful irony of all this is that the over-educated Asian’s will all end up working for some lazy caucasian with an MBA.

If only. Many management positions are headed overseas as well. Many MBAs (especially the ones working for big companies) aren’t creative enough to think of any way to grow a business, so they just implement “cost-cutting” measures (outsourcing to China & India, etc…) to increase profit and grow the share price instead. As a result, the heart of many companies has relocated overseas, and guess what — the head is soon to follow. American managers can’t manage foreign assets effectively because of timezone problems, communication issues, etc… Is the solution to hire more Americans then? Of course not, the solution is to move management to India and China and limit American operations to marketing and sales.

[kewp]

The beautiful irony of all this is that the over-educated Asian’s will all end up working for some lazy caucasian with an MBA.

That makes 3x as much!

[speedingpullet]

I taught basic math at both middle school and junior college level, and (gasp) didn’t allow calcuators in my class.

Its amazing the amount of panic you can engender by saying ‘put that away, you won’t need it’ – calculators have become a crutch for almost everybody.

OK – I was nice -once we got to the part where we used real numbers in decimal fractions, I let them use calculators.

Call me a push-over 😉

[bobby]

Fat_Lazy, There have not been a quota for Asians for 30+ years now, if ever. Asians have the highest average GPA and test score of any group, Caucasians included.

[Coronita]

Joke:

What does U.C.L.A. stand for?

University of Caucasians Lost to Asians.

Since we’re talking about quotas. Let’s drop the asian quotas from colleges. You want to talk about discrimination, play both fields in terms of fairness.

[Anonymous]

http://nychousingbubble.blogspot.com/2007/06/sunday-school-dont-mind-men-behind.html

[FormerOwner]

Regarding sterotyping of Asians as techies, I think a lot of that is because the Asians that come to the US from China and Japan tend to be engineers or in some technical field so Americans think all Asians are like that. I was misled by those stereotypes myself until I dated a couple of Asian girls – they were definitely not techies but they did feel some social pressure from their families to succeed financially.

I’ve noticed that of the Asians that come to the US, a high percentage of Japanese and Chinese are techies but Philipinos tend not to be techies – the women go into nursing many times and them men go into various trades.

[FormerOwner]

Regarding sterotyping of Asians as techies, I think a lot of that is because the Asians that come to the US from China and Japan tend to be engineers or in some technical field so Americans think all Asians are like that. I was misled by those stereotypes myself until I dated a couple of Asian girls – they were definitely not techies but they did feel some social pressure from their families to succeed financially.

I’ve noticed that of the Asians that come to the US, a high percentage of Japanese and Chinese are techies but Philipinos tend not to be techies – the women go into nursing many times and them men go into various trades.

[Anonymous]

http://nychousingbubble.blogspot.com/2007/06/sunday-school-dont-mind-men-behind.html

[Author]

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