- This topic has 88 replies, 15 voices, and was last updated 8 years, 7 months ago by
flyer.
-
AuthorPosts
-
July 23, 2015 at 11:57 AM #788179July 23, 2015 at 11:59 AM #788180
dumbrenter
ParticipantIf you really want to educate yourself and not “believe”, you could take a short drive to SDSU or UCSD, park by the engineering school and look at who is there. It will become very clear to you (in less than 15 mins) about the ‘kinds’ of graduates being pumped out of there. They do not look too dissimilar from what you will see when you park yourself by Scranton Rd. Then, hopefully, you will ask yourself the more relevant question: Why are engineering schools not “pumping out” enough americans ?
And if you think that is bad, park yourself by the business schools and watch!These workers care as much about your country as you care about the country of origin on all parts of the car you buy or the shopping you do.
I have never met one American who refuses to buy avocados from CA because of the abuse and horrible work conditions of the avocado pickers. They are of course “patriotic” and against illegal immigration, but hey, why do you think those things go for $0.99 a piece? Magic?
H1-B is no different.[quote=lifeisgood]http://www.latimes.com/opinion/editorials/la-ed-visas-tech-workers-h1b-20150217-story.html
Hello everyone! I haven’t posted in awhile. I need some educated opinions so that I can open my mind up about the feeling I have towards the broken H1-B visa program. I currently believe that the system is being abused. San Diego is a breeding ground for this program due to the tech jobs that are available. I live in Rancho Bernardo and so do many H1-B visa holders. I find it hard to believe that companies like Qualcomm and others can’t find qualified Americans to fill their positions of need. In SD alone there are two Engineering schools pumping out graduates every year. I also believe that these companies know they can hire immigrants, that come from countries with no worker protections such as overtime pay and scheduled break time, and overwork them and pay them less than an American worker would agree to. I think it’s a shame. Most of theses workers could care less about the United States and are here solely for personal gain. If you disagree with me, please let me know. I’m trying to get different points of view so that I can have a well rounded opinion. With the upcoming Presidential election, this will be a topic that will sway my vote. Thanks for your responses in advance.[/quote]
July 23, 2015 at 12:00 PM #788178
CoronitaParticipant[quote=lifeisgood]By the way, I didn’t intend to start a debate about if legal workers pay their taxes. I’m not an idiot. Of course I know that legal workers pay taxes.[/quote]
I didn’t say you were an idiot. But I see a lot of misplaced anger directed at the H1-B program and the people on H1-B. Out of all the H1-B people that I have had the opportunity to work with, I have never encountered one that wasn’t sharp and that didn’t deserve that position, nor did we ever short change them by paying them less than other people. That’s not to say that abuses don’t happen, and it probably can happen more readily in job roles which has considerable less specialization and things that have reached maturity (like in a lot of parts of IT)….
The bigger problem is the decisions corporations make in trying to move tier 1 programs abroad thinking that it’s really going to work. I’m not even against offshoring if it makes sense. But when a management team makes uses that as a default solution to all the business’s problem, you know the company is headed in the wrong direction, because in the end you know it’s doomed to fail for everyone involved, both the employees, the company, and ultimately the shareholders, if you don’t have the best people working on the projects that’s suppose to drive growth and care more about cost savings than investing in growth…
A lot of these new bean counters don’t understand you simply cannot offshore/outsource ingenuity and creativity, and americans tend to be the ones that are creative. If you’re company is faced with dismal growth prospects, you’re just asking for trouble if you focus on cost reduction and running the business.
That’s why I think all this push into IOT is definitely going to happen. We’re going to see innovation definitely. It’s just not going to happen at Qualcomm or any of the other U.S. chip companies. Because none of them are serious in investing good money into the creative “people” that can actually think of something useful.
That’s why you see this IOT ingenuity all happening at these small startups like Fitbit.
July 23, 2015 at 12:07 PM #788182lifeisgood
ParticipantBottom line, if what you’re saying is true, then the qualified U.S. workers have nothing to worry about. They don’t have to worry about taking less pay or losing out on a job or being let go from a job because they’ve been replaced. You know people are generally self sustaining. I know that laws and rules exist to be broken. People are interviewed for positions just so companies can meet the law requirements with no intention of hiring these people. I just hope this is the exception and not the rule. Thanks for your insight. I really mean that. You all have brought up good points and have really made me think.
July 23, 2015 at 12:09 PM #788181CoronitaParticipant[quote=lifeisgood]
Again I never said that H1-B’s didn’t want to stay here and keep an American job. Where are you reading this? I’m starting to get confused with where you’re coming from. I know companies leave the states to hire lower waged workers, but that is a separate issue. I’m speaking about companies who are here now and abusing the system. Please don’t bend my words. Thanks. I think you make a lot of good points. I don’t disagree with anything that you’ve said. I’m really just stating the obvious when I say that they’re coming here for personal success. You don’t see H1-B’s picking up an American flag and waiving it around when they get off the plane.[/quote]I’m not trying to bend your words. And honestly, I’m not following what you are trying to say. If you are saying that some companies are abusing the H1-B system, yes I agree with that.
If you are saying that it happens most of the time, I would disagree with you on that.
And if you think that somehow H1-B immigrants need to be more patriotic that most people that were born here with U.S. citizenship, that’s where I have we have a disagreement, because I’m interpretting this to mean that you think H1-B’s care less about America than people that were born here care about America. I would argue that many americans don’t really care any more about America than H1-B’s care about America, and the only reason why they really care about being American now is because their job security is under attack (which is an understandable feeling)
For the record, I do feel like when it comes to these layoffs/RIFs, U.S. companies should give preference to U.S. citizens and PR employees, with skillset being equal. And the reason why I strongly feel about this is simply because if you go overseas to companies in Japan and Korea and India, that’s what those companies do or would do… Chinese companies are a little different, because in those companies, they’ll screw over chinese people first, before screwing over americans and foreigners… I’ll never understand Chinese businesses…)
July 23, 2015 at 12:12 PM #788183FlyerInHi
Guestlifeisgood, I agree that we should invest in American citizens. But that’s not the job of private, for-profit companies. It’s the job of government to provide incentives.
But erecting artificial walls without doing anything to improve our workforce is self-defeating. We have the advantages now, but that would simply send business abroad slowly.
American citizens who are the best do get hired. I find it hard to believe that any graduate from a top engineering school cannot find a job.
California is not bursting at the seams. People have said that for decades. We can grow indefinitely. Sounds like you want to preserve a certain lifestyle. But that’s not how the economy works. We need to adapt to grow and prosper. Unfortunately, in a globalized world, changes happen faster than people can accept or adapt. We need to invest more in education to help citizens adapt and understand.
Why do you expect people to waive American flags? Personal success, and more and more of it equates to overall success. The color of green is patriotic. The reason we can have a strong military is because we have an economy of $17 trillion.
July 23, 2015 at 12:17 PM #788185Participant[quote=flu][quote=lifeisgood]
Again I never said that H1-B’s didn’t want to stay here and keep an American job. Where are you reading this? I’m starting to get confused with where you’re coming from. I know companies leave the states to hire lower waged workers, but that is a separate issue. I’m speaking about companies who are here now and abusing the system. Please don’t bend my words. Thanks. I think you make a lot of good points. I don’t disagree with anything that you’ve said. I’m really just stating the obvious when I say that they’re coming here for personal success. You don’t see H1-B’s picking up an American flag and waiving it around when they get off the plane.[/quote]I’m not trying to bend your words. And honestly, I’m not following what you are trying to say. If you are saying that some companies are abusing the H1-B system, yes I agree with that.
If you are saying that it happens most of the time, I would disagree with you on that.
And if you think that somehow H1-B immigrants need to be more patriotic that most people that were born here with U.S. citizenship, that’s where I have we have a disagreement, because I’m interpretting this to mean that you think H1-B’s care less about America than people that were born here care about America. I would argue that many americans don’t really care any more about America than H1-B’s care about America, and the only reason why they really care about being American now is because their job security is under attack (which is an understandable feeling)[/quote]
Thanks! That’s really all I’m saying is I hope it’s not effecting job security. And yes I do believe that the vast majority of this country that grew up here care a lot about the U.S.! I’m very patriotic and most Americans are. Remember what happened on 9/11? You saw a great country come together. I really just want American born citizens to truly have first dibs on the jobs that are here. Not brought in on an interview just so a company can say that they gave everyone a fair chance before hiring outside the country. I also believe that there is no way that a company can’t find enough qualified citizens to feel it’s needs. It benefits the company to hire these immigrants otherwise they wouldn’t do it. It’s always about the money.
Lastly, If I had to choose between a company saving a buck to hire outside or leaving the country all together, I would choose that the company stay here.
July 23, 2015 at 12:17 PM #788184CoronitaParticipant[quote=lifeisgood]Bottom line, if what you’re saying is true, then the qualified U.S. workers have nothing to worry about. They don’t have to worry about taking less pay or losing out on a job or being let go from a job because they’ve been replaced. You know people are generally self sustaining. I know that laws and rules exist to be broken. People are interviewed for positions just so companies can meet the law requirements with no intention of hiring these people. I just hope this is the exception and not the rule. Thanks for your insight. I really mean that. You all have brought up good points and have really made me think.[/quote]
No, what I am saying is the US workers need to worry more about companies moving the entire division to China or India, no one having a job in the U.S. (either H1B or PR) because the company is no longer growing anymore and doesn’t need to expand in the U.S. Because that is the main problem most of these big companies are facing these days.
They have to worry about taking a lesser job/role because their engineering counterpart in Bangalore or Beijing claim that they can do the same quality work for $30,000 USD while an engineer here making $150,000 USD would normally do (regardless if they have a greencard or not)… And that whether that is really true or not, bean counters think it is and actually try it.
I have never had any issues hiring US citizens over H1-Bs. But I have had many issues just getting ANY headcount in the U.S., because when it came to the bean counting, people felt it would be money better spent by hiring “6-8” engineers overseas versus hiring 1 person in the U.S. (H1-B or not)
July 23, 2015 at 12:23 PM #788187Guest[quote=lifeisgood] It benefits the company to hire these immigrants otherwise they wouldn’t do it. It’s always about the money.
[/quote]
Of course, the skillsets that H1-Bs bring, relative to their salaries is a good contract for companies to enter into.
If American citizens provided the same services for the same salaries, companies would hire Americans first because companies would avoid the legal and regulatory costs to bring H1-Bs.
July 23, 2015 at 12:30 PM #788186CoronitaParticipant[quote=lifeisgood]
Thanks! That’s really all I’m saying is I hope it’s not effecting job security. And yes I do believe that the vast majority of this country that grew up here care a lot about the U.S.! I’m very patriotic and most Americans are. Remember what happened on 9/11? You saw a great country come together. I really just want American born citizens to truly have first dibs on the jobs that are here. Not brought in on an interview just so a company can say that they gave everyone a fair chance before hiring outside the country. I also believe that there is no way that a company can’t find enough qualified citizens to feel it’s needs. It benefits the company to hire these immigrants otherwise they wouldn’t do it. It’s always about the money.
Lastly, If I had to choose between a company saving a buck to hire outside or leaving the country all together, I would choose that the company stay here.[/quote]
It probably is affecting job security in some cases for some type of work and some places where abuse is rampant.
But I think in this particular case, for Qualcomm, H1-B isn’t the main problem. It’s Qualcomm’s core business is slowing down, they don’t have new ideas, and they are heavily dependent (51% business) on China, where you have a lot of other players that can offer similar products at significant cheaper price without that much difference in quality and feature….So Q is making business decisions to (rather than focus on R&D on next generation things), focus on saving on cost, by shifting as much work abroad as possible.
Unfortunately, what appears to be driving a lot of public tech company decisions these days is “unlocking shareholder value”. The alarming thing about qualcomm, if you look at their restructuring plan is that all about improving shareholder value (buybacks, curbing compensation, cost reduction)… Not much mention about what they are doing to further grow.
When I started at Q, Dr. Jacobs was all about engineering and pushing growth, even if it meant failure in certain investments. And as such, for the longest time, Q stock was “stuck”, as it found ways to grow. Seems like hedge funds/”active investors” these days are driving too much of the business decisions of tech companies , and a lot of larger tech companies aren’t willing to invest seriously in growth anymore. Which unfortunately, is what I think is happening to the Q.
I wonder if it would be better if they did break off QCT and take it private and employee owned.
July 23, 2015 at 1:02 PM #788188Anonymous
Guest[quote=FlyerInHi][quote=lifeisgood] It benefits the company to hire these immigrants otherwise they wouldn’t do it. It’s always about the money.
[/quote]
Of course, the skillsets that H1-Bs bring, relative to their salaries is a good contract for companies to enter into.
If American citizens provided the same services for the same salaries, companies would hire Americans first because companies would avoid the legal and regulatory costs to bring H1-Bs.[/quote]
What lifisgood is pointing out, correctly in my opinion, is that it is bullshit to believe the U.S. does not pump out enough engineering grads who are US citizens. There is no evidence to support this. So then how do you explain rampant hiring of H1bs and pro-HIB propaganda by the tech industry? Obviously they do this to save money so overall they are being paid less. This is obvious on the larger scale, regardless of the tiny sample size from flu’s work place.
By the way, of course these immigrants are coming to work here for their own benefit, not for any “love” of US. That is the same for low wage workers from Mexico. They are coming here for the mighty dollar and so they can experience the joy of our consumerism based society. The vast majority would prefer to live in their own country and their own culture, speaking their native language. But, people are greedy and like money.
July 23, 2015 at 1:11 PM #788189CoronitaParticipant[quote=deadzone]
What lifisgood is pointing out, correctly in my opinion, is that it is bullshit to believe the U.S. does not pump out enough engineering grads who are US citizens. There is no evidence to support this. So then how do you explain rampant hiring of H1bs and pro-HIB propaganda by the tech industry? Obviously they do this to save money so overall they are being paid less. This is obvious on the larger scale, regardless of the tiny sample size from flu’s work place.
By the way, of course these immigrants are coming to work here for their own benefit, not for any “love” of US. That is the same for low wage workers from Mexico. They are coming here for the mighty dollar and so they can experience the joy of our consumerism based society. The vast majority would prefer to live in their own country and their own culture, speaking their native language. But, people are greedy and like money.[/quote]
(Faceplant) Deadzone. Back when times were good, Qualcomm Staff Engineers were bringing in around $200k/year (H1-B or not). If you consider that low pay, please let me know how much you make for equivalent skillset. Also, if you think that is a lot, why didn’t you apply if you felt you could have been hired?
Also, what was the most “patriotic” thing that you have done the past month? (taking a vacation on July 4th doesn’t count)…
July 23, 2015 at 1:19 PM #788190spdrun
ParticipantRemember what happened on 9/11? You saw a great country come together.
Hahahahaha. For a few weeks, I guess. You really mean, “came together in support of corrupt arseholes who exploited 9/11 to advance an authoritarian agenda?”
Cops were heroes and could do no wrong. Surveillance and violation of privacy was OK because it kept us safe. So was detention of people without trial on scant evidence. As was locking down the borders so as to harass and inconvenience everyone, never mind that the 9/11 attackers came in legally. And you still have to show papers to buy an Amtrak or plane ticket like some good Soviet citizen.
We’re just beginning to undo the damage caused by Americans “coming together” in an orgy of bootlicking after 9/11. I hope we can skip this sort of togetherness in the future and remain more divided.
The US response to a 9/11 was vast overkill. We should be wiser in the future. But many native-born Americans are too spoiled and ignorant to worry about a slow devolution towards authoritarianism. I think more immigrant voters would have actually moderated the process in the US, so I’m all for immigration.
July 23, 2015 at 1:31 PM #788191GuestI expect H1-Bs to benefit employers. Otherwise they would not go through the trouble.
Employers would argue H1-B provide higher skills that allow them to scale up rapidly.I have no problems with economic migration. It’s a credit to us that we have a vibrant economy. Economic activity is good for us and grows our economy. It’s like Americans working in China is good for China.
July 23, 2015 at 1:32 PM #788192ParticipantI think we should eliminate H1-B and allow for more immigration of people of different skill levels, not tied to a given employer. The H1-B system is too much like indentured servitude. Employers with political connections pull strings to bring in employees to replace existing workers at lower rates, and those employees are tied to that employer.
Not fair to existing workers nor to the people brought in under H1-B — a bit too much like indentured servitude.
-
AuthorPosts
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.