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July 23, 2015 at 3:07 PM #788212July 23, 2015 at 6:18 PM #788217
dumbrenter
Participant[quote=lifeisgood]
What kind of graduates are they pumping out? What are you getting at? I’m assuming that they are pumping out engineers. Am I wrong? We have many problems with immigration. I’m just bringing up one. We can site many examples of abuse and talk about this countries demise till we’re blue in the face. I was recently introduced to the H1-B process and started doing a little research. I saw it as a problem that deserved hearing other peoples opinions on. I chose to bring it up here so that I could speak to highly intelligent educated people. By no means am I saying that this is my only immigration concern. I might be one of the few that is hanging onto the hope that this country can become great again.
[/quote]You say you are doing research, I gave you the best possible path to go observe for yourself. Why assume what they are “pumping out” when you can go see for yourself? If the student body looked ((ahem)) “american” and then they looked very different at qcom, you can make the argument that qcom is going out of their way to hire H1-Bs. If not, you will realize that the problem is not qcom… the problem is not enough american kids are going thru the engineering schools. Unfortunately, in this great country of yours, you cannot force them to go to an engineering school.
Why do that when you can get into student debt and get a liberal arts degree that is practically useless for many tech employers?
Ever seen an H1-B in liberal arts? You don’t because that “specialty” has a glut of americans…July 23, 2015 at 6:54 PM #788218spdrun
ParticipantActually, you’d be surprised, I have. A few years back, an antiquities and rare book shop I had as a client imported someone with a history degree from France under the H1-B program.
I bet that some people with knowledge of rare languages also squeak in.
July 23, 2015 at 7:50 PM #788219bearishgurl
ParticipantHere are my thoughts on the comments below and I agree with all, except that I feel that one could easily “misconstrue” students’ and employees’ citizenship status based upon their appearance alone.
[quote=lifeisgood] In SD alone there are two Engineering schools pumping out graduates every year….[/quote]
[quote=deadzone]What lifisgood is pointing out, correctly in my opinion, is that it is bullshit to believe the U.S. does not pump out enough engineering grads who are US citizens. There is no evidence to support this.[/quote]
[quote=dumbrenter]If you really want to educate yourself and not “believe”, you could take a short drive to SDSU or UCSD, park by the engineering school and look at who is there. It will become very clear to you (in less than 15 mins) about the ‘kinds’ of graduates being pumped out of there. They do not look too dissimilar from what you will see when you park yourself by Scranton Rd. Then, hopefully, you will ask yourself the more relevant question: Why are engineering schools not “pumping out” enough americans ?
And if you think that is bad, park yourself by the business schools and watch!….[/quote]My youngest kid is currently attending a CSU located out of county majoring in Bus Admin (Acct option). When I went to freshman orientation last summer, I spoke with several other parents of incoming freshman during the various activities we went through all day. The vast majority of these freshman were admitted to the School of Engineering, one of the schools which this particular campus is noted for. It was obvious to me that almost all of these parents had at one time no doubt been on student-visas to attend university in the US and H-1B themselves (their kids were born in the US). At least 10 out of the roughly 12-13 parents I spoke to throughout the day resided in the SF bay area and despite their sons having HS GPAs of 3.9+ and a dozen or more AP credits, they weren’t accepted to any UC or CSU they applied to within a 100 mile radius of home! SJSU was a first choice for several of them but they were all turned down for admission. My kid’s school was at or near the bottom of their choices out of the 4-10 campuses they applied to but in early April 2014, ended up granting hundreds of late rolling freshman admissions declaring several majors, accepting this group after they were rejected left and right in NorCal. For a data point, even though these kids admitted to engineering school were overwhelmingly of East Indian/Pakistani descent, they were actually born in the US. It is possible that East Indian families push their kids to go into Engineering. I have NO IDEA how many African American, Caucasian (incl Hispanic) or Asian kids were granted admission to the School of Engineering but I feel whatever the percentage of each of these groups is, it may not reflect the population of that age group as a whole, due to kids of East Indian descent taking up so many of the billets.
It is not just the tech field that H-1B workers dominate. Over the last 25 years, the medical field (incl biotech) has EXPLODED with (originally, but now citizens) H-1B physicians, surgeons and researchers. I saw this among cardiologists in SD when one of my relatives was hospitalized here for about 10 days while visiting me in the mid-nineties.
For the past four weeks, I’ve been doing some nationwide medical research for a (very athletic non-smoking, non-drinking) friend who was diagnosed with Stage 4 pancreatic cancer in June and given just weeks/few months to live (as of today, he is still alive but hospitalized). I’ve been reading a lot of medical journal articles, physician bios and watching videos of surgeries. Unfortunately, he will be the 4th person in my life who will succumb to this dreadful disease, so I know what to expect and basically what’s worked in the past and what doesn’t work. I was/am desperate to determine if he is qualified for any surgery at all which will prolong his life by at least one year after surgery.
In reading and watching online, it was very clear to me that over 90% of the most distinguished and talented gastrointestinal surgeons in this country were at one time very likely on a student visa to attend university in the US and H1-B themselves. This particular specialty of surgeons perform the most difficult, lengthy and risky surgery on the planet! Overwhelmingly, these surgeons, from renowned cancer centers all over the country were of East Indian and Pakistani origin (with north African incl middle eastern, eastern European and South American mixed in). Almost all of them still had thick accents but their English was very understandable.
I have no idea if enough US born medical students have been/are majoring in gastroenterology over the past 30 years or why some medical fields attract so many foreigners. The surgeons I researched online appeared to me to be age 35-60 with the smallest age group 50-60 years old.
btw, dumbrenter, most of my kid’s fellow business majors appear to me to be Asian (primarily Filipino and Chinese with Caucasian/Hispanic following closely behind).
I do believe that it is VERY DIFFICULT for a HS senior of any race in CA today who has a 3.0 to 3.9 GPA to get admitted to a CA public university as a freshman (even to those “armpit” campuses of UC Merced, Fresno State and CSU Bakersfield)! In addition, the qualification bar is set quite a bit higher for UC/CSU admission for OOS and OOC applicants, and of course, they pay the “full freight” to attend (and no doubt bring up the campus graduation rate due to their higher qualifications at entrance). I don’t agree that the UC/CSU systems are “bursting at the seams” but that each campus offers admissions to the most qualified first (apart from their agreements with local school districts). And if the most qualified just so happen to be from OOS or OOC, that’s all the more money they can collect!
A handful of campuses (5-6 CSU campuses) do make a special outreach effort to offer admissions to “service-area” freshman applicants for select majors … those whose parents reside within commuting distance of campus (miles vary by campus). These applicants need a GPA of just 3.0 and can have a little lower SAT score than a general in-state applicant. They may need some math or English remedial work which must be completed on campus during the summer after HS graduation. My kid’s campus is one which honors their agreements with local HS districts in this fashion but these campuses are in the minority.
I really don’t think “foreigners” are taking up too many billets at the CSU but they may be at the UC (which is more competitive to get into) … I don’t know. I think that some ethnic groups/cultures who are actually American citizens push engineering and medical careers on their children from a young age and that is why the preponderance of “foreign-looking” engineers, physicians and nurses. It may be that not enough people born in the USA are deciding to go into these fields or not enough children of US-born parents are going into these fields. I don’t think that H1-B workers are being paid less than their co-worker who was born in the US.
I know when I went to college in the mid ’70’s, my campus was full of returning US born Vietnam vets (in all majors) and a several hundred mostly Iranian (engineering) students … all male and completely cash-funded by parents for OOC tuition. (I DO think many of them returned to their home country after graduation). But I don’t recall being aware of H1-B’s holding so many jobs in the US until the early/mid ’90’s. Today, a typical “Iranian” student is likely US born to possibly immigrant parents so a “foreign-appearing” college student in the US today is very likely not “foreign” at all!
I’m going to say it again here, folks … the competition for a CA public university slot is ultra-competitive for CA high school seniors today! Make sure your kid doesn’t drop the ball in HS and applies TIMELY to multiple campuses in each system AND DECLARES A MAJOR FOR EACH AND EVERY CAMPUS THEY APPLY TO!
It’s a crapshoot.
July 23, 2015 at 9:32 PM #788221Participant[quote=dumbrenter][quote=lifeisgood]
What kind of graduates are they pumping out? What are you getting at? I’m assuming that they are pumping out engineers. Am I wrong? We have many problems with immigration. I’m just bringing up one. We can site many examples of abuse and talk about this countries demise till we’re blue in the face. I was recently introduced to the H1-B process and started doing a little research. I saw it as a problem that deserved hearing other peoples opinions on. I chose to bring it up here so that I could speak to highly intelligent educated people. By no means am I saying that this is my only immigration concern. I might be one of the few that is hanging onto the hope that this country can become great again.
[/quote]You say you are doing research, I gave you the best possible path to go observe for yourself. Why assume what they are “pumping out” when you can go see for yourself? If the student body looked ((ahem)) “american” and then they looked very different at qcom, you can make the argument that qcom is going out of their way to hire H1-Bs. If not, you will realize that the problem is not qcom… the problem is not enough american kids are going thru the engineering schools. Unfortunately, in this great country of yours, you cannot force them to go to an engineering school.
Why do that when you can get into student debt and get a liberal arts degree that is practically useless for many tech employers?
Ever seen an H1-B in liberal arts? You don’t because that “specialty” has a glut of americans…[/quote]dumbrenter, see my post, above. I believe that, among millenials in CA (up to age 35 or so) a very large portion of students (and possibly tech workers, as well) who don’t “look” ((ahem)) too “american” to an observer actually ARE American in that they were born in the US and did, in fact, attend CA public and/or private schools from K-12. Perhaps their mothers still dress in the traditional dress of their home country and both of their parents are legal immigrants, or more likely, now American citizens, but I DO believe CA universities ARE churning out mostly “American-citizen” engineering graduates.
The $64M question here is, What does a typical (millenial) American citizen look like today?
This dialog reminds me of the (ignorant) general public claiming that South (SD) County schools have an overwhelmingly predominately “Hispanic” student population (btw, “Hispanics” are actually Caucasians). This public perception is based upon student-recorded designations when they take their STAR, CAHSEE and other mandatory exams which rate their school performance in comparison with other area schools of the same age group (ie elem, middle and high school). The more students of a “protected class” a district has, the more eligible Federal funds they receive for special programs, equipment and such. As a class of students sit down for their mandatory annual testing at all relevant grade levels, they are counseled by their teachers to claim a race or nationality that they “most identify with” and told that if they have Hispanic relatives and/or a Hispanic surname, they can check the bubble “Hispanic.” However, I can tell you from my long “boots on the ground” experience that a very large percentage (over 40% in some schools) of South County students with Hispanic-sounding surnames (and/or with surnames ending in z) are overtly Caucasian. A much smaller percentage of Hispanic-students-on-paper are overtly African American. For example, an individual can have ONE grandparent who is just one-half Hispanic (out of four grandparents) and have a Hispanic surname but are actually 1/8 Hispanic (or less). This phenomenon is truer for American millenials than for any generation preceding them.
You can’t always judge a young person’s citizenship (or even race/Nationality in some instances), by their appearance or surname.
July 23, 2015 at 10:03 PM #788223Participant(btw, “Hispanics” are actually Caucasians)
Really depends. There are plenty of Hispanics with African, Asian, or Native American ancestry as well.
July 23, 2015 at 11:14 PM #788224Anonymous
GuestOn the one hand, we have all these threads about how hard it is for kids with excellent grades to even get accepted to public schools in California (in any degree let along Engineering). Then on the other hand we have these H1B proponents that claim there are not enough US citizens with STEM degrees.
It just doesn’t add up unless you are suggesting that the reason it is so hard to get accepted by UC schools is due to foreign competition. Perhaps that is true for UC schools(although I highly doubt it), this is definitely not the case nationally.
Let’s look at actual data from ASEE for the 2010/11 school year.
http://www.asee.org/papers-and-publications/publications/college-profiles/2011-profile-engineering-statistics.pdfAccording to this report, 83,000 Bachelors degrees were awarded in Engineering with 93% of those to US permanent residents (i.e. not H1B material). For masters degrees, 47,000 were awarded with 57% of those to permanent residents. For PhDs, 9500 with 46% going to permanent residents.
So not surprisingly, there is more foreign influence in the graduate programs compared to undergrad. However, overall looking at these statistics, how can you see a shortage of domestic engineers?
July 24, 2015 at 1:59 AM #788226
CoronitaParticipantAlso look at the most recent college graduates that we tried to hire… Many of the bachelors we interviewed didn’t really know about real time O/S, didn’t really have that much experience with mobile software…And the ones that we felt were bright and we could train, they weren’t interesting in working for us because they thought wireless connectivity was “boring”. They all wanted to go work for Facebook.
And as another example. My company has 4 open recs right now for senior firmware engineers. Pretty good pay…You could definitely negotiate a very nice salary and total comp package since these positions have been open for a long time now. I think I might have even posted them here awhile ago. Not a single one of the people I reached out to replied. Why? How many of you with an “engineer” title can write firmware? I know I can’t. A lot of these H1-B’s are hired because they have learned/done what many of the rest of us had snubbed our noses at doing throughout our career. And frankly, they are better at doing it then those of us who haven’t done it that now suddenly want to do it
July 24, 2015 at 4:42 AM #788225CoronitaParticipant[quote=deadzone]On the one hand, we have all these threads about how hard it is for kids with excellent grades to even get accepted to public schools in California (in any degree let along Engineering). Then on the other hand we have these H1B proponents that claim there are not enough US citizens with STEM degrees.
It just doesn’t add up unless you are suggesting that the reason it is so hard to get accepted by UC schools is due to foreign competition. Perhaps that is true for UC schools(although I highly doubt it), this is definitely not the case nationally.
Let’s look at actual data from ASEE for the 2010/11 school year.
http://www.asee.org/papers-and-publications/publications/college-profiles/2011-profile-engineering-statistics.pdfAccording to this report, 83,000 Bachelors degrees were awarded in Engineering with 93% of those to US permanent residents (i.e. not H1B material). For masters degrees, 47,000 were awarded with 57% of those to permanent residents. For PhDs, 9500 with 46% going to permanent residents.
So not surprisingly, there is more foreign influence in the graduate programs compared to undergrad. However, overall looking at these statistics, how can you see a shortage of domestic engineers?[/quote]
Well, there could be many factors….I’ll just use myself as an example. Out of my graduating class back in the mid 90ies when we were just coming out of a recession,
1) some chose to be civil, mechanical, material science, operations research/industrial chemical engineers, who lacked the knowledge/skills then to get hired by motorola, nortel, lucent, scrappy small company qualcomm that were looking for people that had studied digital signal processing, communication systems, information theory and stochastic processes, computer networking. My Qualcomm onsite interview, I had to do a Fourier Transform problem on the whiteboard, and a “Random Walk” problem, despite neither of the two questions ended up being anywhere relevant to what they hired me to do in the system’s group.
2) some were civil,mechanical, material science, ORIE, chemical, electrical engineers, that lacked the knowledge/skills of software engineering, OOP, real time O/S, unix network programming, relational database, to get hired by Sun Microsystems, Oracle, Netscape, Spyglass, AOL, Yahoo. I was one of them that graduated from school with virtually no software knowledge and not a single software company was interested in talking to me.
3) some were civil,mechanical, material science, ORIE, chemical, electrical engineers, that lacked the knowledge/skills of hardware engineering to get hired by Intel, Sun Microsystems, AMD, HP…. I was one of them that none of the top chip companies wanted to talk to me with the exception of HP, which then gave me an interview that I totally sucked wind on (good thing I never went there)
4)There were many top engineering graduates ended up going to work for McKinsey and Company, Bain and Company, Boston Consulting Group (BCG-Qualcomm’s advisor BTW), Mercer, Morgan Stanley, Goldman Sachs, Lehman Brothers, JP Morgan…Some as traders.
5)There were many top engineering graduates that figured they wanted to go to medical school. Not me…
6)There were many top engineering graduates that figured they wanted to stay in academia….Definitely not me…
.
7)And there were plenty of graduates that barely graduated that probably would have been better off majoring in something else, because their academic performance was so bad in engineering, they couldn’t find any jobs.———
Out of all the people that applied to Qualcomm, there were only 2 of us that got in from my school with a Bachelor’s degree, and 5 of us that got in with a Master’s.
*One BS/CS got in but decided to go work for Yahoo!. He was a US citizen
*I was the single BS/EE that got into the system’s group, and I only went after getting rejected by all the wall street companies I applied for. I was a US citizen
Out of the 5 masters
*3 were MS/EE with an emphasis in communication theory/wireless systems (all H1-B)
*1 was a MS/CS with an emphasis in operating systems (US citizen)
*1 was a MS/EE with a BS/CS elsewhere with an emphasis in computer networks (H1-B)
There were some PHD hires, I think all of them were all H1-B.
I remember when people were picking engineering specialization, many of the classmates ended up deciding NOT to go the EE route, and definitely not the wireless communication route because they felt it was too much math/too much probability, too much tedious theory….And the ones that were really good at math figured out that same math applied to developing Goldman Sach’s trading platform was a lot more lucrative than going to work for a company like Motorola or Qualcomm (well, at least before we learned about stock options).
I can think of a lot of mechanical engineers that were jobless after they graduated, and I didn’t understand why they picked that major despite everything telling them getting a job was hard to find.
And if I solely counted on what I only learned in school to get me a job, I wouldn’t have been able to move around to all the other companies I’ve worked at after Qualcomm, because I didn’t learn anything in college wrto software engineering.
July 24, 2015 at 7:07 AM #788227
svelteParticipant[quote=flu]We also had a bunch of lateral hires that were already greencard holders and H1-Bs that stayed maybe for 1-2 years, before they too jumped ship and went to Qualcomm, Apple, Google. And last year we lost a lot of people to Intel that I heard were paying people 40%+ more because they wanted to ramp up their mobile business (and no, we weren’t underpaying people).[/quote]
I tell you what, I rarely see people jump to new jobs that pay less or even with their current job. That is rare!
Most of the time that people jump, they jump for more money! In some cases they will to a straight-over jump for job security, but $$ talks.
I guess I’m saying you definition of “underpaying” is suspect to me.
[quote=flu]
And as another example. My company has 4 open recs right now for senior firmware engineers. Pretty good pay…You could definitely negotiate a very nice salary and total comp package since these positions have been open for a long time now. I think I might have even posted them here awhile ago. Not a single one of the people I reached out to replied. Why? How many of you with an “engineer” title can write firmware? I know I can’t. A lot of these H1-B’s are hired because they have learned/done what many of the rest of us had snubbed our noses at doing throughout our career. And frankly, they are better at doing it then those of us who haven’t done it that now suddenly want to do it[/quote]Again, money talks. If you were offering a good enough pay, people would starting training themselves for it.
There was a point in my career where I switched over and did assembly coding to help out my employer. I wasn’t thrilled about it, but I did it for about a year. When time came to look for a new position, I started getting bites from other companies doing embedded work, based on my most recent job history. So I thought about it long and hard and decided to decline those interview offers.
Why? I felt that embedded software development was a small sliver of the sw dev field [it is bigger now] and that I would be limiting myself going forward for something that paid no better and left me less satisfied.
Now, had I been able to get a 25% premium over app level development, do you think I would have made that decision? Absolutely not, I can tell you that!
So again, it comes down to pay.
It’s all mindset. You can argue all you want that you offer a decent wage and all you can get to take it are H1Bs, but I know how I felt back when I considered going embedded and to me it wasn’t “decent” enough to entice me. I’m betting the same thing exists today.
July 24, 2015 at 7:36 AM #788228no_such_reality
ParticipantWhat you described flu is the way H1-B is supposed to work, staffing of a position with niche or difficult to find skills. When you look across the country how many do you see like them?
As opposed to were I’ve see many h1bs, windows support engineer III or the equivalent.
I have no concerns with the program being used for niche requirements, I do when it’s used for rank and file.
July 24, 2015 at 8:49 AM #788231lifeisgood
Participant[quote=dumbrenter][quote=lifeisgood]
What kind of graduates are they pumping out? What are you getting at? I’m assuming that they are pumping out engineers. Am I wrong? We have many problems with immigration. I’m just bringing up one. We can site many examples of abuse and talk about this countries demise till we’re blue in the face. I was recently introduced to the H1-B process and started doing a little research. I saw it as a problem that deserved hearing other peoples opinions on. I chose to bring it up here so that I could speak to highly intelligent educated people. By no means am I saying that this is my only immigration concern. I might be one of the few that is hanging onto the hope that this country can become great again.
[/quote]You say you are doing research, I gave you the best possible path to go observe for yourself. Why assume what they are “pumping out” when you can go see for yourself? If the student body looked ((ahem)) “american” and then they looked very different at qcom, you can make the argument that qcom is going out of their way to hire H1-Bs. If not, you will realize that the problem is not qcom… the problem is not enough american kids are going thru the engineering schools. Unfortunately, in this great country of yours, you cannot force them to go to an engineering school.
Why do that when you can get into student debt and get a liberal arts degree that is practically useless for many tech employers?
Ever seen an H1-B in liberal arts? You don’t because that “specialty” has a glut of americans…[/quote]That’s what I thought you were getting at. I never mentioned what I thought an American looked like. I find it funny that you think that. Unless you work for the acceptance department at these schools, don’t assume that because these students aren’t white, that there not American. I just simply think that the program is corrupt(along with others) and wanted to bring it up here. I also said Qcomm and other companies. I do blame any company that goes through the motions of interviewing qualified Americans just to hire someone out of country to pay them less. By the way, so no one gets their panties in a bunch, I know and understand that H1-B’s are compensated well. I’m sure that it’s not as high as skilled workers in their positions would be making had the program not existed. If the companies didn’t benefit financially, then what’s the point. No will ever lead me to believe that we don’t have enough highly intelligient American citizens to pick from.
I tend to also think that Americans are not seeking out meaningless degrees either. I know that some do, but not the majority. I have a very good friend that is a mechanical engineer student at SDSU currently. Most of the students in that department are citizens.
July 24, 2015 at 9:01 AM #788232Participant[quote=deadzone]On the one hand, we have all these threads about how hard it is for kids with excellent grades to even get accepted to public schools in California (in any degree let along Engineering). Then on the other hand we have these H1B proponents that claim there are not enough US citizens with STEM degrees.
It just doesn’t add up unless you are suggesting that the reason it is so hard to get accepted by UC schools is due to foreign competition. Perhaps that is true for UC schools(although I highly doubt it), this is definitely not the case nationally.
Let’s look at actual data from ASEE for the 2010/11 school year.
http://www.asee.org/papers-and-publications/publications/college-profiles/2011-profile-engineering-statistics.pdfAccording to this report, 83,000 Bachelors degrees were awarded in Engineering with 93% of those to US permanent residents (i.e. not H1B material). For masters degrees, 47,000 were awarded with 57% of those to permanent residents. For PhDs, 9500 with 46% going to permanent residents.
So not surprisingly, there is more foreign influence in the graduate programs compared to undergrad. However, overall looking at these statistics, how can you see a shortage of domestic engineers?[/quote]
Thanks for the data! This really solidifies my point!! 65000 H1-B’s are granted a year. I have no idea how many of those go to engineers. But we have way more than that graduating at all levels of degree who are American citizens. We would have to believe that the Americans that are graduating are less qualified than the H1-B’s. I will never believe that.
July 24, 2015 at 9:42 AM #788233FlyerInHi
Guest[quote=lifeisgood] If the companies didn’t benefit financially, then what’s the point. No will ever lead me to believe that we don’t have enough highly intelligient American citizens to pick from.
[/quote]Of course, there’s a benefit. It’s a combination of value for the money; and that allows American companies to be competitive.
65,000 is a drop in the bucket for the size of our $17 trillion economy.
Shouldn’t even be an issue.These H1-Bs are highly qualified professionals, not slave labor. We want to attract smart people and the skills they bring accrue to our economy. They grow the economy and that, in turn, results in more jobs for everyone. spd made a good point about not tying work status to any particular employer.
If you care about worker protections and work conditions, we should develop a legal immigrant worker program from low skills occupations, such as farm workers.
July 24, 2015 at 10:19 AM #788235ParticipantI agree with everyone, lifeisgood. There are more than enough US citizens graduating with Bachelor’s Degrees in US colleges to fill the available openings (except possibly for the “niche” openings that flu mentioned here).
I was simply pointing out that I can see where a US-born person observing typical college students and workers on the ground who are in engineering fields could get the idea that “foreigners” are taking up too much space in both US universities and employment billets at coveted firms.
It’s an innocent observation but one needs to really dig deeper, be connected to a CA university oneself, be a hiring/employment “insider,” like flu (or one of my kids who is in HR for a firm in SV) or simply live within a highly multicultural environment where you know your neighbors well to realize that you can’t judge a person’s citizenship (or even race/nationality sometimes) solely by their appearance or surname.
Too many H1-B’s in the workforce (in relation to qualified and available US citizens) may be true for “Gen X” in some fields (abt 38-51 yrs old, as flu referred to as being trained in the ’90’s and the physicians I referred to earlier). But I don’t think it is true for millennials. I used to think CA public universities offered too many slots to foreign students but I no longer believe that about the CSU (the verdict is still out on the UC). I think the CSU strives mightily to admit as many qualified freshmen as it possibly can but there are simply too many CA-resident applicants that ARE highly qualified, so they can only pick some (after leaving slots open for their “service area applicants” under agreement with their school districts). After freshman year and during/after sophomore year, many “service-area applicants” admitted to a CSU under less-stringent admission criteria DO end up dropping out due to failure to progress (academic problems). University IS hard for a freshman, especially for a student from a disadvantaged family. This process of elimination leaves open slots for transfer applicants from CC with AA-T and AS-T (qualified Associate Degrees) who will be entering the same degree programs as the failed undergrads vacated.
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