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scaredyclassic
ParticipantI was talking to a guy whose grandpa I knew the other day. Smoked and drank everyvday. How much booze. A pint of hard liquor a day. Plus beer all day long. Right up to the bitter end. Died at 87
It is my opinion that survival is 80 percent attitude. If you insist on living, you live. Weak people like me get culled out. People like my wife live to be 100.
Participant[quote=CA renter]I would never tell you what to do with your body, nor would I tell you what you should believe.
Again, why do you think your religious freedoms give you the right to dictate to others what they should do with their own bodies?[/quote]
I suppose all societies tell people how to live one way or the other and call it either law or tax incentive or religious doctrine and provide punishments large and small to move you along
But just because something provides an incentive doesn’t make it a “religion” just because we say so.
And the constitution seems to want to keep religions out of govt decisionmaking. Maybe if everything is characterized as a religion there will be no basis for gvt. Decisionmaking and gov. Can shrink down to an instinctive amoeba.
Participant[quote=paramount][quote=scaredyclassic]
Pretty horrifying that we as a society are secular eh? And governed by reason…[/quote]Is this reason you speak of known as science? Or at least backed and validated by science?[/quote]
Ick! Theology! I’d rather study fish.
ParticipantNot every worldview or philosophy is a religion.
But most religions seem to boot out opposing viewpoints which seems bad if unchecked for democracy
Participant[quote=paramount][quote=CA renter]
Your right to your religious beliefs end where my rights begin.[/quote]
State CAR and scaredy (as I recall) from the Altar of the 1st Church of Progressive Secularism.
Of course it’s not likely that CAR and scaredy even realize that they’re even participating in a religion.
But they are. The official state religion in fact.[/quote]
Pretty horrifying that we as a society are secular eh? And governed by reason…
ParticipantCan I offer you a pamphlet explaining how it might not save your nonexistent soul? G-D IS DEAD ..All the worship nowadays is just a funeral service for him…at best…at worst it’s that fat lady threatening the handicapped girl at the gym…
Participantthe war on drugs is the gov. affirmatively requiring you to remain sober ina particular way. it feels way more oppressive in so many ways than an insurance reqt…
reading SAYING YES. In defense of drug use, by sullum. this is a book i love instantly. legalize humanity..
Participant[quote=SK in CV]Seen somewhere on the internets:
If you think fertilized eggs are people but refugee kids aren’t, you’re going to have to stop pretending your concerns are religious.
[/quote]
refugee eggs…do they become citizens if they exist in the USA, or do they have to be born? im pretty sure they need to be born…
http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/news/world/story/2012-03-19/in-vitro-citizenship/53656616/1
looks like we’ll still be running those refugee eggs out of town…scramble em baby…
Participant[quote=Allan from Fallbrook]Scaredy: Since this is in the Hobby Lobby thread, can we recast or reframe this narrative in terms of “positive rights” and “negative rights”, with the US Government as God/Organized Religion?
In other words, “Thou shalt purchase contraception, or there will be consequences!” (Which, in the final analysis, is very real, as the US Government holds a monopoly on its ability to use coercion and violence to enforce its will, akin to the God of the Old Testament.)
How does the argument play then? You know, when someone points out that we’re actually talking about negative rights versus positive rights here, and the ability of the government to coerce a private citizen against their will or beliefs.[/quote]
i guess I see this not so much as a horrifically coercive governmental action, like the mutual fund holding a bit of the company that produces the stuff…it’s just unavoidable if you live ina complex society to keep your hands perfectly clean.
so you’re being commanded to buy insurance, not contraception, and part of the insurance package is that doctors make decisions, some of which you like, some of which you don’t, and some the objector may not even understand…like, it’s not necessarily being used for contraceptive purposes, even if it could be….basically, when you live and work ina pluralistic marketplace, not everything’s going to be perfect…and if this is just too much for you to bear…well, then, maybe you are too delicate to do business in the USA.
on the other hand..
it does seem different to place affirmative burdens on people to do stuff, though. I don’t know the legal debate on it…but it’s definitely odd…
of course, insurance is the lifeblood of society, we have lived, eaten and breathed it for a century or so, right? and we all understand you can’t insure with justa few people. you need lots and lots of people…ideally, everyone..to spread risks…to be able to afford to cover big losses….
ultimately, insurance, and perhaps citizenship, is a collectivist enterprise, and in terms of sacrifices, it just doesn’t seem that horrible to have a system where everyone is covered even if that system requires some coercive aspect. might not be worth it, and then I suppose the people will rebel…personally, i think of my kids, i think of lengthy periods when i had no coverage, i like the idea of not ahving to worry about them having coverage because i know id spend my last dime paying their medical bills if they weren’t…..
ParticipantAt my gym, an attempted Christian conversion…
There are some mentally handicapped people who swing by my gym sometimes with their caretakers. Some of them work out, others just sit around. I am not sure how impaired this one particular girl is, but she sounds very child like and has some sort of behavior issues. Not sure what the problem is.
Anyway, she is sitting at a table with her regular caretaker, and a caretaker I hadn’t seen before, both caretakers are just slow and tired and obese. They would never ever think of moving in the gym. They just sit and wait, just absolutely huge and slow and dull eyed.
I usually don’t listen to their conversations but I overhear the handicapped girl say, in a shrill childlike voice “There is no G-d!” The really heavy new caretaker tells her maybe her parents told her that, and maybe she believes it, but there definitely is a G-d. They go back and forth for a while. There is. There isn’t. is so. Is not. The caretaker doesn’t seem much smarter than the ward, but she is definitely calmer and not shrill.
, so…I swing by a little later and they’re still talking about G-d. The heavy lady is going through the whole” he sent his only son down” thing, but the handicapped girl is not following the thread of that story. Son? Down? What? The way the fat lady was telling it, it sounded kind of absurd, and the handicapped girl was probably thinking, this doesn’t really make sense. What is this lady talking about?
Then the fat lady, kind of frustrated she’s not making any headway regarding the handicapped girl’s soul with the carrot of being saved, whips out the well-worn stick of hell, and starts laying out the details of the pit of fire, and how the handicapped girl is going to have to suffer forever in a firey hell if she doesn’t accept Jesus.
It takes a good deal of my self-restraint not to make an offhand comment to the handicapped girl, who seems to be backing down from her assertion that there is no G-d, the fear thing definitely is working. But I say nothing. Probably get arrested if I made a snarky comment.
…Very distracted though …really want to leap to the side of the handicapped girl and say, yeah, stand up for what you’re thinking, don’t let this lady diss you…. All I can think is, how paternalistic conversion tactics are, and what an embarrassing little exchange this is…it would’ve made an awesome youtube video. Just mesmerizingly sad and meanspirited and shitty….
When the converter’s “you can believe what you want to believe but it’s just plain wrong” doesn’t work”, the converter historically is left with no option but to turn to violence (or its counterpart here, the threat of imaginary future violence).
I wanted to tell the handicapped girl, don’t let this woman push you around. Look at her! She can barely walk! She SO FAT! Why would someone who can barely move necessarily know definitively the absolute structure of the universe… But I didn’t. no good could come of it. Tolerance for religion…I suppose I was tolerant…but clearly the religious impulses of the heavy woman demanded ridiculing and taunting and scaring a handicapped girl.
Her extreme obesity I suppose isn’t relevant to the story, except we were in a gym, for crying out loud. They should all be moving about, all of them, caretakers and wards, experiencing the beauty of their G-d given bodies, instead of making the body so heavy she literally had to limp her way out of the door, waddling, sweating just to lift herself and lurch forward. It seemed an affront to the creator to abuse the body in that way.
“You don’t have to believe in G-d,” the fat lady said derisively, “some people just don’t believe in anything.” I guess it’s just difficult to be tolerant of this type of tactic, which seems to be embedded in the historical religious tradition…aggressively try to persuade, then kill or threaten if they don’t buy it. really glad i didn’t say anything. it probably wouldve come out as “back the fuck off!”
something about attempted conversions always gives Jews the creeps…probably cellular flashbacks from the spanish inquisition.
ParticipantHe’d rattle the bus and yell at kids?
Participant[quote=Hobie]I dunno. Call them whatever you want, but I think the Murrietta situation quite accurately represents the feeling of the vast majority of legal immigrants and natural born Americans. Be nice if more of those folks voted.
It’s like a stranger walking in your front door sitting down to dinner curling up on your couch and saying, “whats for breakfast?” Just because they are here doesn’t make it right. or legal, ahem.[/quote]
what would Jesus do…
Participantone things for sure; we know Hobby Lobby would whip out their Bible and help him…
Genesis 15:13
And He said to Abram, Know for a certainty that your seed shall be a stranger in a land that is not theirs, and shall serve them; and they shall afflict them four hundred years;
Genesis 23:4
I am a stranger and a sojourner with you; give me possession of a burying place with you, that I may bury my dead out of my sight.
Exodus 2:22
And she bore him a son, and he called his name Gershom; for he said, I have been a stranger in a strange land.
Leviticus 19:33
And if a stranger sojourns with you in your land, you shall not wrong him.
Psalms 119:19
I am a stranger on earth; do not hide your commandments from me.
Your Bible Navigator
1. See how the word “stranger” is used in each verse.
2. What makes people “strange”?
3. Can one feel strange in familiar surroundings? Bring one of the verses as a proof text for your answer.
4. What makes you feel strange?In the Talmud, they understand “stranger” to mean the same as “newcomer” i.e. someone who has chosen to join the community. In other words, someone who feels strange, but wishes to belong.
Our Rabbis taught: He who wounds the feelings of a proselyte transgresses three negative commandments, and he who oppresses him transgresses two commandments. How does wounding their feelings differ from oppressing them?
We make this distinction because three separate negative commandments are stated: You shall not wrong a stranger [i.e., a proselyte] (Exodus 23:9) And if a stranger sojourns with you in your land, you shall not wrong him (Leviticus 19:33), and you shall not therefore wrong each his fellow man (Leviticus 25:17) — a proselyte being included in ‘fellow man.’
But for ‘oppression’ there are also three commandments which prohibit this,” and you shall not oppress him” (Exodus 22:20), Also “You shall not oppress a stranger,” (Exodus 23:9) and “[If you lend money to any of my people whom are of your poor,] you shall not take interest from him” (Exodus 22:24). which includes a proselyte! — So, say instead, that both wounding feelings and oppressing are forbidden by three commandments.
It has been taught: R. Eliezer the Great said: Why did the Torah warn against [the wronging of] a proselyte in thirty-six, or as others say, in forty-six, places? Because he may revert back to his evil ways. What is the meaning of the verse, You shall neither wrong a stranger, nor oppress him; for you were strangers in the land of Egypt? It has been taught: R. Nathan said: Do not taunt your neighbor with the blemish you yourself have. And thus the proverb runs: If there is a case of hanging in a man’s family record, say not to him, ‘Hang this fish up for me.’
Participant[quote=UCGal][quote=scaredyclassic]
I think one of the more important factors determining how you feel about the decision is whether or not you have a uterus not political affiliation.[/quote]I have a uterus… but it’s a bit past it’s prime.
This ruling does not impact me directly. And I never used those forms of birth control.
I have friends who feel that *any* birth control is an interference in God’s plans to go forth and multiply. They don’t claim to be part of the quiverful movement, but they are pretty close in my view. I support their right to make those choices. I also know that my choices were different. And I didn’t feel that my employer should be involved at all.[/quote]
to say any given uterus is past its prime is to deny the Bible in a way…thnk of the miraculous births to older , very old women.
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