Talked to Thornberg

[NotCranky]

Thanks Perry, You have been one of my favorites from the start. Even if you are a Lib.LOL You want to know something funny? My Real Estate supervisor is a christian republican from La Jolla.

About the restaurant,besides the food, I hope it is as good of a cultural experience for you as it is for me.It is always a nice friendly taste of Mexico in more ways than one.The owners are from Merida. Maybe you will get a chance to practice your spanish ?

[Anonymous]

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“I have found that those who would debate us bail when the sosphistication and sensibility of the argument exceeds their prejudices.”
——————————————————–

Oh please, get over yourself, your argument isn’t more sophisticated or sensible just because you think it is!
You have been aggressively marketed to by radicals, elitists and pseudo-experts and you have bought into that way of thinking which you believe is superior to others way of thinking, especially others you believe to be religious.Yet ALL of you ranting about religious untolerance seem to be intolerant yourselves. And that, I would say is the problem with talking about topics that are emotionally charged, very little intellect or rationality is involved. You may think you are being sensible and making a good argument, but you are only exchanging barbs and jabs and revealing a lack of knowledge on both side.

[Anonymous]

———————————————————
“I have found that those who would debate us bail when the sosphistication and sensibility of the argument exceeds their prejudices.”
——————————————————–

Oh please, get over yourself, your argument isn’t more sophisticated or sensible just because you think it is!
You have been aggressively marketed to by radicals, elitists and pseudo-experts and you have bought into that way of thinking which you believe is superior to others way of thinking, especially others you believe to be religious.Yet ALL of you ranting about religious untolerance seem to be intolerant yourselves. And that, I would say is the problem with talking about topics that are emotionally charged, very little intellect or rationality is involved. You may think you are being sensible and making a good argument, but you are only exchanging barbs and jabs and revealing a lack of knowledge on both side.

[NotCranky]

Submitted by DGH on July 2, 2007 – 1:54pm.
I’m a long time reader but I agree that lately there has been too much religion and politics. I used to like to read the forum posts for the helpful information about the real estate market. I’ve noticed the quality is slipping. I think I will just check in for Rich’s posts from now on.

Same DGH? The one that is above all of this low quality stuff, welcome to the fray or mind your own business take your pick. What will it be?

Personally I would like to hear your enlightened thoughts on these topics.

Here is my disclaimer that was posted a few pages back in this thread.
“This forum is a little like “toast masters” for me…just practice and experimentation with language and ideas.For instance,now I can spell syntax correctly and own the word in my vocabulary. Same with demagoguery.”

I don’t see where I said my purpose was to express intolerance for Christians. I realize intolerance is not a viable option.However I have my views, which I aquired not from some marketing source but by years of observation, courageous introspection and critcal reading & thinking.How you could confuse me for elitist totally escapes me. How did you come to that conclusion? The sophistication thing was partly true and partly a poke at someone.If you had read previous post you would have know that.Maybe you think only the elite have anything sophisticated in the gray matter? I admit I am a pretty ordinary guy.

I am also in my right to say that I have experienced a lack of nuance and circumspection in others arguments and that posters flat out avoid direct questions where their fallacies/prejudices would be exposed by answering them.Look just a few posts up this thread, where is 4runner? Where is FSD to answer the question “why would the Islamic world stop attempting to harm us just because we pull out of Iraq? What of JG’s bullying tactics in which he premptively decides that unimpeachable evidence has been displayed on one topic or another and calls every body a bunch of girls? Who could debate with an authoritarian like that? Yes, of course, I make obvious logic mistakes all the time. I am one of the few, more opinionated vocal posters, who admits when he blows it.

Have a great day.

[NotCranky]

Submitted by DGH on July 2, 2007 – 1:54pm.
I’m a long time reader but I agree that lately there has been too much religion and politics. I used to like to read the forum posts for the helpful information about the real estate market. I’ve noticed the quality is slipping. I think I will just check in for Rich’s posts from now on.

Same DGH? The one that is above all of this low quality stuff, welcome to the fray or mind your own business take your pick. What will it be?

Personally I would like to hear your enlightened thoughts on these topics.

Here is my disclaimer that was posted a few pages back in this thread.
“This forum is a little like “toast masters” for me…just practice and experimentation with language and ideas.For instance,now I can spell syntax correctly and own the word in my vocabulary. Same with demagoguery.”

I don’t see where I said my purpose was to express intolerance for Christians. I realize intolerance is not a viable option.However I have my views, which I aquired not from some marketing source but by years of observation, courageous introspection and critcal reading & thinking.How you could confuse me for elitist totally escapes me. How did you come to that conclusion? The sophistication thing was partly true and partly a poke at someone.If you had read previous post you would have know that.Maybe you think only the elite have anything sophisticated in the gray matter? I admit I am a pretty ordinary guy.

I am also in my right to say that I have experienced a lack of nuance and circumspection in others arguments and that posters flat out avoid direct questions where their fallacies/prejudices would be exposed by answering them.Look just a few posts up this thread, where is 4runner? Where is FSD to answer the question “why would the Islamic world stop attempting to harm us just because we pull out of Iraq? What of JG’s bullying tactics in which he premptively decides that unimpeachable evidence has been displayed on one topic or another and calls every body a bunch of girls? Who could debate with an authoritarian like that? Yes, of course, I make obvious logic mistakes all the time. I am one of the few, more opinionated vocal posters, who admits when he blows it.

Have a great day.

[cyphire]

“radicals, elitists and pseudo-experts”… I guess if you don’t accept the dogma – you are branded as a kook.

On a personal note – I can’t accept a great level of tolerance for people who are affecting our society in a dangerous way. Our current problems in governing our country are to a great extent the fault of the fantasy worshipers.

Get the religion out of politics, keep your fantasy to yourself, and if you will try to corrupt and hurt our country you need to be fought against.

The usual American apathy allows dangerous radical jesus freaks to have terribly hurt our nation, our military and our values. Real values should not be based on a hypocritical cult worshiping cartel.

Sorry to be so angry about this – but I’m not spreading the poison.

This is a war to some extent – and the prize is the future of our country. I didn’t start it, I’m trying to fight it. Newt Gingrich started the Evangelical move to take over politics. The trend has accelerated and a dangerous and very incompetent boob is running our country. The detractors on this forum are supporting a position, which in my opinion, is dangerous to our freedom, our society, and our true family values.

Lets keep our fantasies to ourselves and not inflict them on society.

THere… I’ve said it and I’m proud to support a position.

[cyphire]

“radicals, elitists and pseudo-experts”… I guess if you don’t accept the dogma – you are branded as a kook.

On a personal note – I can’t accept a great level of tolerance for people who are affecting our society in a dangerous way. Our current problems in governing our country are to a great extent the fault of the fantasy worshipers.

Get the religion out of politics, keep your fantasy to yourself, and if you will try to corrupt and hurt our country you need to be fought against.

The usual American apathy allows dangerous radical jesus freaks to have terribly hurt our nation, our military and our values. Real values should not be based on a hypocritical cult worshiping cartel.

Sorry to be so angry about this – but I’m not spreading the poison.

This is a war to some extent – and the prize is the future of our country. I didn’t start it, I’m trying to fight it. Newt Gingrich started the Evangelical move to take over politics. The trend has accelerated and a dangerous and very incompetent boob is running our country. The detractors on this forum are supporting a position, which in my opinion, is dangerous to our freedom, our society, and our true family values.

Lets keep our fantasies to ourselves and not inflict them on society.

THere… I’ve said it and I’m proud to support a position.

[NotCranky]

Hey cy,
Nice post Cy. I am waiting for the astute and brave soul that slammed me to come back and share his enlightened views. No doubt they will be Christian. For some reason they tend to take it upon themselves to have the last word or to be evasive and vexatious. Here is another question if he comes back. Is it a coincidence that the neo-cons,enlisted for their launching pad to the presidency and the behind the scenes agenda, the christian coalition and random Christian voters when the aim of their murderous imperialist schemes and destruction was the heart of the muslim world? Plays right into the weakness of the fantasy. Christians should be outraged by the murders of 100’s of thousand but they feel vindicated because their little pie in the sky fantasies are validated by American power brokers.They are Pawns. Republicans who aren’t also overly patriotic, brainwashed Christians have dumped this administration. The rest have blood on their hands for oil and american standard of living paid for by obliterated muslims and a few thousand young americans and they know it. Must be a hard tradeoff? Sit back and watch your religious views be debunked and your influence fade or take sides with a murderous bunch or money&power mongers to be validated and enjoy the perception of future financial security. All the Republicrats had to do is propagandize to enough zealots to get them elected and have a constituency and eight years of gridlock that supports their fraud.It is not just the Christians and republicans either. Both parties play that “standard of living crap” and “strong american economy” for the consumption/debt addicted masses.” Implied don’t worry we will not back off this murderous imperial agenda enough to put your spending or debt paying at at risk. I would rather be poor than have the blood on my hands. Problem, in our society me being poor doesn’t fix anything it just means I am screwed in my old age.(now everybody jump in with the genius next logical question ,Why don’t you leave?) Which means “stop bothering us with your observations.
I got to thinking, why do we need films like Zeitgeist that muddle the issues when the hard cold facts are abominable enough? What fixes it? It has been said on this blog many times, let’s get our heads out of the sand, our fantasies, both politcal parties BS, get beyond our fearful lower instincts for hording and competing and say something about the murders and plunder.
Vote “no confidence” however you see fit to accomplish that in the next elections. I know we are afraid that if we vote no confidence we get the Republicans again or feel that we might as well vote for our self interest.The Democrats are going to blame Iraq on the Republicans but where is a real and sustained outcry from them? No they are to busy pandering as well. Our concerns for integrity are totally irrelevant because of the charade we call an electoral system and a democracy as long as we are satisfied to play along every four years.

[NotCranky]

Hey cy,
Nice post Cy. I am waiting for the astute and brave soul that slammed me to come back and share his enlightened views. No doubt they will be Christian. For some reason they tend to take it upon themselves to have the last word or to be evasive and vexatious. Here is another question if he comes back. Is it a coincidence that the neo-cons,enlisted for their launching pad to the presidency and the behind the scenes agenda, the christian coalition and random Christian voters when the aim of their murderous imperialist schemes and destruction was the heart of the muslim world? Plays right into the weakness of the fantasy. Christians should be outraged by the murders of 100’s of thousand but they feel vindicated because their little pie in the sky fantasies are validated by American power brokers.They are Pawns. Republicans who aren’t also overly patriotic, brainwashed Christians have dumped this administration. The rest have blood on their hands for oil and american standard of living paid for by obliterated muslims and a few thousand young americans and they know it. Must be a hard tradeoff? Sit back and watch your religious views be debunked and your influence fade or take sides with a murderous bunch or money&power mongers to be validated and enjoy the perception of future financial security. All the Republicrats had to do is propagandize to enough zealots to get them elected and have a constituency and eight years of gridlock that supports their fraud.It is not just the Christians and republicans either. Both parties play that “standard of living crap” and “strong american economy” for the consumption/debt addicted masses.” Implied don’t worry we will not back off this murderous imperial agenda enough to put your spending or debt paying at at risk. I would rather be poor than have the blood on my hands. Problem, in our society me being poor doesn’t fix anything it just means I am screwed in my old age.(now everybody jump in with the genius next logical question ,Why don’t you leave?) Which means “stop bothering us with your observations.
I got to thinking, why do we need films like Zeitgeist that muddle the issues when the hard cold facts are abominable enough? What fixes it? It has been said on this blog many times, let’s get our heads out of the sand, our fantasies, both politcal parties BS, get beyond our fearful lower instincts for hording and competing and say something about the murders and plunder.
Vote “no confidence” however you see fit to accomplish that in the next elections. I know we are afraid that if we vote no confidence we get the Republicans again or feel that we might as well vote for our self interest.The Democrats are going to blame Iraq on the Republicans but where is a real and sustained outcry from them? No they are to busy pandering as well. Our concerns for integrity are totally irrelevant because of the charade we call an electoral system and a democracy as long as we are satisfied to play along every four years.

[cyphire]

Awesomely true Rustico – I think that you are right in it being a separate fight – the religious right on one side of the power equation, the apathy of a public gone quiet, more interested in Paris Hilton than a mad power hungry self serving group of citizens who have hijacked our morals, our money, our social status in the world and our pocketbooks.

We need to keep expressing our views – try to get people to vote their conscience vs. their fears and educate people to the real issues in our society (hard to do without preaching!). Just watched the movie “Who killed the electric car”…. Amazing… Just more greedy people hurting our future for their own oil-driven greed.

Have to unblog now, family wants more social interaction on vacation! I did, however, sign a petition to impeach Bush, Chaney, and some others. Not sure if it means anything – but I like to get counted.

[cyphire]

Awesomely true Rustico – I think that you are right in it being a separate fight – the religious right on one side of the power equation, the apathy of a public gone quiet, more interested in Paris Hilton than a mad power hungry self serving group of citizens who have hijacked our morals, our money, our social status in the world and our pocketbooks.

We need to keep expressing our views – try to get people to vote their conscience vs. their fears and educate people to the real issues in our society (hard to do without preaching!). Just watched the movie “Who killed the electric car”…. Amazing… Just more greedy people hurting our future for their own oil-driven greed.

Have to unblog now, family wants more social interaction on vacation! I did, however, sign a petition to impeach Bush, Chaney, and some others. Not sure if it means anything – but I like to get counted.

[4runner]

I am also in my right to say that I have experienced a lack of nuance and circumspection in others arguments and that posters flat out avoid direct questions where their fallacies/prejudices would be exposed by answering them.Look just a few posts up this thread, where is 4runner?

Hey, I’m still here. I just started listening to all the complaints about religion and politics on Piggington. If you have any specific questions you want answered, please list ’em. I’ll be happy to address them.

The only one I see is the contention that people won’t start pillaging even if religion were eliminated. I disagree. I think that society is much more fragile than people want to recognize and that religion is the basis for that stability. In fact, it has been for generations and no long-lasting human society has ever been established without religion. Cyphire says that this doesn’t prove that religion is necessary. Maybe not, but I think that he bears the burden of proving that something that is present in every society can be discarded.

Indeed, I think that Cyphire and Rustico are quite naive in a charming sort of way. They are unable to conceive of people acting inhumanely toward others–unable to recognize how fragile society is. I think that this naivete is a measure of the success of religion.

Because humane behavior spurred by religion is the norm, we live under the delusion that it is the standard. Aside from personal experience, the only way I can illustrate this is our reaction to events. For example, after 9/11, the press got all hot and bothered about how “well-planned/well-coordinated” the attacks were. This is plain old wrong. Building the World Trade Center– that required planning and coordination. Building a 747– once again, it requires planning and coordination.

Destroying them was the work of child.

If there is no God and no religion, people are just meat. Yes– there are laws that that stop people from doing horrible things. Not only are those laws difficult to enforce, they are also subject to revision. Look- Hitler was duly elected. It was “legal” to kill people in Nazi Germany. It was “legal” to kill people in the Soviet Union. Hell– it was “legal” to execute prisoners on death row in Illinois before DNA testing proved that around 15% of the inmates on death row innocent.

Yet, when confronted with murder, we are all left with a deep-set feeling that it is “wrong”– independent of legality. It is in this feeling that I find religion.

[4runner]

I am also in my right to say that I have experienced a lack of nuance and circumspection in others arguments and that posters flat out avoid direct questions where their fallacies/prejudices would be exposed by answering them.Look just a few posts up this thread, where is 4runner?

Hey, I’m still here. I just started listening to all the complaints about religion and politics on Piggington. If you have any specific questions you want answered, please list ’em. I’ll be happy to address them.

The only one I see is the contention that people won’t start pillaging even if religion were eliminated. I disagree. I think that society is much more fragile than people want to recognize and that religion is the basis for that stability. In fact, it has been for generations and no long-lasting human society has ever been established without religion. Cyphire says that this doesn’t prove that religion is necessary. Maybe not, but I think that he bears the burden of proving that something that is present in every society can be discarded.

Indeed, I think that Cyphire and Rustico are quite naive in a charming sort of way. They are unable to conceive of people acting inhumanely toward others–unable to recognize how fragile society is. I think that this naivete is a measure of the success of religion.

Because humane behavior spurred by religion is the norm, we live under the delusion that it is the standard. Aside from personal experience, the only way I can illustrate this is our reaction to events. For example, after 9/11, the press got all hot and bothered about how “well-planned/well-coordinated” the attacks were. This is plain old wrong. Building the World Trade Center– that required planning and coordination. Building a 747– once again, it requires planning and coordination.

Destroying them was the work of child.

If there is no God and no religion, people are just meat. Yes– there are laws that that stop people from doing horrible things. Not only are those laws difficult to enforce, they are also subject to revision. Look- Hitler was duly elected. It was “legal” to kill people in Nazi Germany. It was “legal” to kill people in the Soviet Union. Hell– it was “legal” to execute prisoners on death row in Illinois before DNA testing proved that around 15% of the inmates on death row innocent.

Yet, when confronted with murder, we are all left with a deep-set feeling that it is “wrong”– independent of legality. It is in this feeling that I find religion.

[cyphire]

In Sweden the small fraction of society which is religious is looked down on (and considered less intelligent). They have a progressive society – one free from a lot of the prejudice and cult worshiping we have here. It’s also a much safer society. Wow – no mass killings in the street.

If you rate a society by it’s level of religious activity there is a direct correlation between it’s religiousness and it’s crime. More worship – more hate. More worship – more crime. More worship – more fantasy. Ohhh…. Lots of people not taking responsibility for their own actions. People who don’t have the fantasy have to take responsibility for their own actions.

By the way, GW was duly elected also… Whats that got to do with anything? By the way – George loves to execute people. It’s the texas way! Lots of the really religious Christians in our society love the idea of putting people to death. Surprised that any self respecting church would allow him to worship with them. Oh… Guess they are all hypocrites.

Keep drinking the Kool-aid 4.

[cyphire]

In Sweden the small fraction of society which is religious is looked down on (and considered less intelligent). They have a progressive society – one free from a lot of the prejudice and cult worshiping we have here. It’s also a much safer society. Wow – no mass killings in the street.

If you rate a society by it’s level of religious activity there is a direct correlation between it’s religiousness and it’s crime. More worship – more hate. More worship – more crime. More worship – more fantasy. Ohhh…. Lots of people not taking responsibility for their own actions. People who don’t have the fantasy have to take responsibility for their own actions.

By the way, GW was duly elected also… Whats that got to do with anything? By the way – George loves to execute people. It’s the texas way! Lots of the really religious Christians in our society love the idea of putting people to death. Surprised that any self respecting church would allow him to worship with them. Oh… Guess they are all hypocrites.

Keep drinking the Kool-aid 4.

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