PIIGS R’ us?

[outtamojo]

[quote=CA renter][quote=temeculaguy]Before everyone gets their panties in a bunch, how much do you look at the fundamentals of world economies?

It may seem that we don’t make anything because of the lables you see on some products, but China has a lot more people than we do, in fact the 300 million or so residents we have isn’t anywhere near where we should be relative to our GDP.

Look at the chart, ignore the eurozone listing because they don’t give it a ranking because they break out the various countries as well.

We essentially make 3x what china does, not per person, but as a whole.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(nominal)

The United States is 1/4 of the world economy we have about 300 million people in a world of nearly 7 billion. Does that sound like last place to you? We are first by a mile, our per capita gdp is ahead of all the big countries

China and India combine for 37% of the world population and about 9% of the world economy. The US accounts for 25% of the world economy with about 4% of the population. We can argue gnp,gdp,exports,labor, blah blah blah. But it comes down to the fact that we are still way out in front and if you want to be honest with yourself, we have all that we need, even now, in our darkest days, we have too much food.

Here’s why history and anectdotes don’t matter. We work, hell we work too much. We have the longest workweeks, the shortest vacations, the longest working lives. Sure we end up with shorter lifespans, more heart attacks, high divorce and substance abuse rates. Those are the side effects of who we are, but ending up like Spain or some other former superpower, sorry, not going to happen. We will have bad years, we may lose some ground and some industries, but we keep coming up with new ones.

And I don’t care where my macbook was fabricated, the money for the most part, stays here. Oil, Schmoil, we will invent a new fuel source and then license it to other countries to make it and ship it back to us, thats what we do, we screw everybody else and reap the fruits of their labor, we aren’t getting rich on the backs of americans, we live well because of places like china and we dont take naps and enjoy life like europeans, that’s why we wont end up like them. Please, an American on welfare lives better than 95% of the planet. I’m all out of tears and I’m more worried about the NBA lockout than I am about us losing our place in the world economy.

Calm down, it’s going to be just fine.[/quote]

If we make stuff here, we certainly aren’t selling it here. I would love to buy American-made appliances — specifically, at the moment, a washing machine. Where can I get one of those?[/quote]

I digress but if we wanna buy something American made and pay a little more than it is worth because it is made in America and also keep it out of hands of non-citizens, then how about buying a house, it would really support American manufacturing and construction, banks and realtors : )

[jpinpb]

[quote=outtamojo]I digress but if we wanna buy something American made and pay a little more than it is worth because it is made in America and also keep it out of hands of non-citizens, then how about buying a house, it would really support American manufacturing and construction, banks and realtors : )[/quote]

Pretty much the only thing that kept our economy going for the past decade. Look how well that’s turned out.

[jpinpb]

[quote=outtamojo]I digress but if we wanna buy something American made and pay a little more than it is worth because it is made in America and also keep it out of hands of non-citizens, then how about buying a house, it would really support American manufacturing and construction, banks and realtors : )[/quote]

Pretty much the only thing that kept our economy going for the past decade. Look how well that’s turned out.

[jpinpb]

[quote=outtamojo]I digress but if we wanna buy something American made and pay a little more than it is worth because it is made in America and also keep it out of hands of non-citizens, then how about buying a house, it would really support American manufacturing and construction, banks and realtors : )[/quote]

Pretty much the only thing that kept our economy going for the past decade. Look how well that’s turned out.

[jpinpb]

[quote=outtamojo]I digress but if we wanna buy something American made and pay a little more than it is worth because it is made in America and also keep it out of hands of non-citizens, then how about buying a house, it would really support American manufacturing and construction, banks and realtors : )[/quote]

Pretty much the only thing that kept our economy going for the past decade. Look how well that’s turned out.

[jpinpb]

[quote=outtamojo]I digress but if we wanna buy something American made and pay a little more than it is worth because it is made in America and also keep it out of hands of non-citizens, then how about buying a house, it would really support American manufacturing and construction, banks and realtors : )[/quote]

Pretty much the only thing that kept our economy going for the past decade. Look how well that’s turned out.

[outtamojo]

[quote=jpinpb][quote=outtamojo]I digress but if we wanna buy something American made and pay a little more than it is worth because it is made in America and also keep it out of hands of non-citizens, then how about buying a house, it would really support American manufacturing and construction, banks and realtors : )[/quote]

Pretty much the only thing that kept our economy going for the past decade. Look how well that’s turned out.[/quote]

I don’t understand- are you saying it’s not good to overpay for something because it’s made in America?

[outtamojo]

[quote=jpinpb][quote=outtamojo]I digress but if we wanna buy something American made and pay a little more than it is worth because it is made in America and also keep it out of hands of non-citizens, then how about buying a house, it would really support American manufacturing and construction, banks and realtors : )[/quote]

Pretty much the only thing that kept our economy going for the past decade. Look how well that’s turned out.[/quote]

I don’t understand- are you saying it’s not good to overpay for something because it’s made in America?

[outtamojo]

[quote=jpinpb][quote=outtamojo]I digress but if we wanna buy something American made and pay a little more than it is worth because it is made in America and also keep it out of hands of non-citizens, then how about buying a house, it would really support American manufacturing and construction, banks and realtors : )[/quote]

Pretty much the only thing that kept our economy going for the past decade. Look how well that’s turned out.[/quote]

I don’t understand- are you saying it’s not good to overpay for something because it’s made in America?

[outtamojo]

[quote=jpinpb][quote=outtamojo]I digress but if we wanna buy something American made and pay a little more than it is worth because it is made in America and also keep it out of hands of non-citizens, then how about buying a house, it would really support American manufacturing and construction, banks and realtors : )[/quote]

Pretty much the only thing that kept our economy going for the past decade. Look how well that’s turned out.[/quote]

I don’t understand- are you saying it’s not good to overpay for something because it’s made in America?

[outtamojo]

[quote=jpinpb][quote=outtamojo]I digress but if we wanna buy something American made and pay a little more than it is worth because it is made in America and also keep it out of hands of non-citizens, then how about buying a house, it would really support American manufacturing and construction, banks and realtors : )[/quote]

Pretty much the only thing that kept our economy going for the past decade. Look how well that’s turned out.[/quote]

I don’t understand- are you saying it’s not good to overpay for something because it’s made in America?

[eavesdropper]

[quote=carlsbadworker]eavesdropper, two more viewpoints for you to consider.

1. Yes, in some of these countries, people may not have a “choice” in life. But I think that’s exactly the reason that American have no reasons to bitch about things. We have so many choices available to us to improve our lots, that the rest of the world could only dream about.[/quote]

Agreed, carlsbad. As mentioned in my post, we have a good thing here in America. That being said, I’d like to clarify that it didn’t come this way, wrapped in pretty ribbons. Millions of people have died in the process of creating it, and then defending it, some in the wrong, some right.

I agree with your point that our status as Americans does not make us special, or confer exclusive privileges on our citizens. Too many Americans focus solely on what they don’t have, and appear to be laboring under the delusion that no bad fortune should ever be permitted to befall them. They take what we have for granted, and feel no responsibility to defend it and maintain it for subsequent generations.

This is why I’m so concerned about the degree to which offshoring jobs has increased. No matter what you may think, these jobs aren’t being replaced, and they never have been in any meaningful amount. We’ve reached the point where virtually all jobs are being offshored: unskilled and skilled. Assembly line workers, administrative personnel, engineers, designers, IT personnel, lawyers, executive staff. Most of these are not simply location changes: this is not an employee job transfer. The US employee stays here while his job is sent to another country, and someone there is hired, typically at anywhere from 3% to 30% of the cost of the US employee. If this trend continues unabated, where will American citizens obtain income? Even if you did away with ALL forms of entitlement programs, how will the US pay for military, local law enforcement, disease control, natural disaster recovery, water purification, power generation, and other basic life support operations without adequate revenue from payroll taxes?

Make no mistake: unchecked offshoring of jobs poses a significant danger to the stability of this nation.

[quote=carlsbadworker] 2. Yes, the corporations might be screwing US tax payers, but maximizing profits is what corporations do. But that standard, how much more screwed are the foreigners, where US corporations went there, paying under “50 cents an hour” , lowering “environmental standard” (which is just a nice way of saying exploiting their natural resources and killing people over long term via pollution), and dispatching the majority of the earning as profits, which are owned mainly by US citizens through their pensions and 401Ks, etc. As for Chinese trade surplus in US, they are only allowed to buy the worthless treasury notes that might actually default this summer (look at how many times the Congress has blocked Chinese from purchasing US companies/resources citing national security).[/quote]

I believe that my post included my awareness that the raison d’etre for corporations is the maximizing of profits. During my time in B-school (admittedly, some decades ago), a lot of attention was given to the characteristics of well-run successful companies vs. the not-so-well-run ones, and the methods and means by which a company generated profits were discussed frequently. Mass offshoring of jobs? Not so much. If you represented yourself as an American corporation, and took advantage of American opportunities such as tax exemptions and subsidies, you kept a fair amount of jobs in America.

I believe in capitalism, and I believe in a company’s right to pursue profits where they can be legally obtained. There’s not a company out there that I blame for offshoring jobs, even though I may not agree with their decision to do so. As you say, “life is full of shits”. However, I can, and I do, condemn every corporation that has permanently taken jobs offshore while wrapping themselves in the American flag and claiming identity as an “American company”. Those who have taken every possible exemption on their tax returns, and every possible rebate or subsidy. Those who lobbied for millions more in taxpayer subsidies to keep the last 500 factory jobs from moving overseas, and then moved them anyway a year after receiving the funds. Those who continue to take lucrative defense contracts (using those to prove their “patriotism” in advertising), even though they have plans on the books to permanently move their shipyards overseas.

There are profits, and then there’s greed. It’s not difficult to distinguish between them. And the greed of many of these “American” corporations is putting the security of the United States into jeopardy. You are free to make a profit. You are not free to rob and rape us while you are doing so.

If all of the jobs end up overseas, we have ourselves to blame. For not paying attention and not educating ourselves. For voting in the wrong people – not heeding the warnings of the few honest ones, but continuing to be charmed by the cheats and liars in Congress and the White House. Depending on the strength and will of the people, we’ll either survive or we won’t. But I’ll be damned if I’ll let any corporation, that is – during this most critical time in the existence of the United States – currently engaged in offshoring, convince me that they’re an “American” company. That’s just way more shit than I can handle in this life.

[eavesdropper]

[quote=carlsbadworker]eavesdropper, two more viewpoints for you to consider.

1. Yes, in some of these countries, people may not have a “choice” in life. But I think that’s exactly the reason that American have no reasons to bitch about things. We have so many choices available to us to improve our lots, that the rest of the world could only dream about.[/quote]

Agreed, carlsbad. As mentioned in my post, we have a good thing here in America. That being said, I’d like to clarify that it didn’t come this way, wrapped in pretty ribbons. Millions of people have died in the process of creating it, and then defending it, some in the wrong, some right.

I agree with your point that our status as Americans does not make us special, or confer exclusive privileges on our citizens. Too many Americans focus solely on what they don’t have, and appear to be laboring under the delusion that no bad fortune should ever be permitted to befall them. They take what we have for granted, and feel no responsibility to defend it and maintain it for subsequent generations.

This is why I’m so concerned about the degree to which offshoring jobs has increased. No matter what you may think, these jobs aren’t being replaced, and they never have been in any meaningful amount. We’ve reached the point where virtually all jobs are being offshored: unskilled and skilled. Assembly line workers, administrative personnel, engineers, designers, IT personnel, lawyers, executive staff. Most of these are not simply location changes: this is not an employee job transfer. The US employee stays here while his job is sent to another country, and someone there is hired, typically at anywhere from 3% to 30% of the cost of the US employee. If this trend continues unabated, where will American citizens obtain income? Even if you did away with ALL forms of entitlement programs, how will the US pay for military, local law enforcement, disease control, natural disaster recovery, water purification, power generation, and other basic life support operations without adequate revenue from payroll taxes?

Make no mistake: unchecked offshoring of jobs poses a significant danger to the stability of this nation.

[quote=carlsbadworker] 2. Yes, the corporations might be screwing US tax payers, but maximizing profits is what corporations do. But that standard, how much more screwed are the foreigners, where US corporations went there, paying under “50 cents an hour” , lowering “environmental standard” (which is just a nice way of saying exploiting their natural resources and killing people over long term via pollution), and dispatching the majority of the earning as profits, which are owned mainly by US citizens through their pensions and 401Ks, etc. As for Chinese trade surplus in US, they are only allowed to buy the worthless treasury notes that might actually default this summer (look at how many times the Congress has blocked Chinese from purchasing US companies/resources citing national security).[/quote]

I believe that my post included my awareness that the raison d’etre for corporations is the maximizing of profits. During my time in B-school (admittedly, some decades ago), a lot of attention was given to the characteristics of well-run successful companies vs. the not-so-well-run ones, and the methods and means by which a company generated profits were discussed frequently. Mass offshoring of jobs? Not so much. If you represented yourself as an American corporation, and took advantage of American opportunities such as tax exemptions and subsidies, you kept a fair amount of jobs in America.

I believe in capitalism, and I believe in a company’s right to pursue profits where they can be legally obtained. There’s not a company out there that I blame for offshoring jobs, even though I may not agree with their decision to do so. As you say, “life is full of shits”. However, I can, and I do, condemn every corporation that has permanently taken jobs offshore while wrapping themselves in the American flag and claiming identity as an “American company”. Those who have taken every possible exemption on their tax returns, and every possible rebate or subsidy. Those who lobbied for millions more in taxpayer subsidies to keep the last 500 factory jobs from moving overseas, and then moved them anyway a year after receiving the funds. Those who continue to take lucrative defense contracts (using those to prove their “patriotism” in advertising), even though they have plans on the books to permanently move their shipyards overseas.

There are profits, and then there’s greed. It’s not difficult to distinguish between them. And the greed of many of these “American” corporations is putting the security of the United States into jeopardy. You are free to make a profit. You are not free to rob and rape us while you are doing so.

If all of the jobs end up overseas, we have ourselves to blame. For not paying attention and not educating ourselves. For voting in the wrong people – not heeding the warnings of the few honest ones, but continuing to be charmed by the cheats and liars in Congress and the White House. Depending on the strength and will of the people, we’ll either survive or we won’t. But I’ll be damned if I’ll let any corporation, that is – during this most critical time in the existence of the United States – currently engaged in offshoring, convince me that they’re an “American” company. That’s just way more shit than I can handle in this life.

[eavesdropper]

[quote=carlsbadworker]eavesdropper, two more viewpoints for you to consider.

1. Yes, in some of these countries, people may not have a “choice” in life. But I think that’s exactly the reason that American have no reasons to bitch about things. We have so many choices available to us to improve our lots, that the rest of the world could only dream about.[/quote]

Agreed, carlsbad. As mentioned in my post, we have a good thing here in America. That being said, I’d like to clarify that it didn’t come this way, wrapped in pretty ribbons. Millions of people have died in the process of creating it, and then defending it, some in the wrong, some right.

I agree with your point that our status as Americans does not make us special, or confer exclusive privileges on our citizens. Too many Americans focus solely on what they don’t have, and appear to be laboring under the delusion that no bad fortune should ever be permitted to befall them. They take what we have for granted, and feel no responsibility to defend it and maintain it for subsequent generations.

This is why I’m so concerned about the degree to which offshoring jobs has increased. No matter what you may think, these jobs aren’t being replaced, and they never have been in any meaningful amount. We’ve reached the point where virtually all jobs are being offshored: unskilled and skilled. Assembly line workers, administrative personnel, engineers, designers, IT personnel, lawyers, executive staff. Most of these are not simply location changes: this is not an employee job transfer. The US employee stays here while his job is sent to another country, and someone there is hired, typically at anywhere from 3% to 30% of the cost of the US employee. If this trend continues unabated, where will American citizens obtain income? Even if you did away with ALL forms of entitlement programs, how will the US pay for military, local law enforcement, disease control, natural disaster recovery, water purification, power generation, and other basic life support operations without adequate revenue from payroll taxes?

Make no mistake: unchecked offshoring of jobs poses a significant danger to the stability of this nation.

[quote=carlsbadworker] 2. Yes, the corporations might be screwing US tax payers, but maximizing profits is what corporations do. But that standard, how much more screwed are the foreigners, where US corporations went there, paying under “50 cents an hour” , lowering “environmental standard” (which is just a nice way of saying exploiting their natural resources and killing people over long term via pollution), and dispatching the majority of the earning as profits, which are owned mainly by US citizens through their pensions and 401Ks, etc. As for Chinese trade surplus in US, they are only allowed to buy the worthless treasury notes that might actually default this summer (look at how many times the Congress has blocked Chinese from purchasing US companies/resources citing national security).[/quote]

I believe that my post included my awareness that the raison d’etre for corporations is the maximizing of profits. During my time in B-school (admittedly, some decades ago), a lot of attention was given to the characteristics of well-run successful companies vs. the not-so-well-run ones, and the methods and means by which a company generated profits were discussed frequently. Mass offshoring of jobs? Not so much. If you represented yourself as an American corporation, and took advantage of American opportunities such as tax exemptions and subsidies, you kept a fair amount of jobs in America.

I believe in capitalism, and I believe in a company’s right to pursue profits where they can be legally obtained. There’s not a company out there that I blame for offshoring jobs, even though I may not agree with their decision to do so. As you say, “life is full of shits”. However, I can, and I do, condemn every corporation that has permanently taken jobs offshore while wrapping themselves in the American flag and claiming identity as an “American company”. Those who have taken every possible exemption on their tax returns, and every possible rebate or subsidy. Those who lobbied for millions more in taxpayer subsidies to keep the last 500 factory jobs from moving overseas, and then moved them anyway a year after receiving the funds. Those who continue to take lucrative defense contracts (using those to prove their “patriotism” in advertising), even though they have plans on the books to permanently move their shipyards overseas.

There are profits, and then there’s greed. It’s not difficult to distinguish between them. And the greed of many of these “American” corporations is putting the security of the United States into jeopardy. You are free to make a profit. You are not free to rob and rape us while you are doing so.

If all of the jobs end up overseas, we have ourselves to blame. For not paying attention and not educating ourselves. For voting in the wrong people – not heeding the warnings of the few honest ones, but continuing to be charmed by the cheats and liars in Congress and the White House. Depending on the strength and will of the people, we’ll either survive or we won’t. But I’ll be damned if I’ll let any corporation, that is – during this most critical time in the existence of the United States – currently engaged in offshoring, convince me that they’re an “American” company. That’s just way more shit than I can handle in this life.

[eavesdropper]

[quote=carlsbadworker]eavesdropper, two more viewpoints for you to consider.

1. Yes, in some of these countries, people may not have a “choice” in life. But I think that’s exactly the reason that American have no reasons to bitch about things. We have so many choices available to us to improve our lots, that the rest of the world could only dream about.[/quote]

Agreed, carlsbad. As mentioned in my post, we have a good thing here in America. That being said, I’d like to clarify that it didn’t come this way, wrapped in pretty ribbons. Millions of people have died in the process of creating it, and then defending it, some in the wrong, some right.

I agree with your point that our status as Americans does not make us special, or confer exclusive privileges on our citizens. Too many Americans focus solely on what they don’t have, and appear to be laboring under the delusion that no bad fortune should ever be permitted to befall them. They take what we have for granted, and feel no responsibility to defend it and maintain it for subsequent generations.

This is why I’m so concerned about the degree to which offshoring jobs has increased. No matter what you may think, these jobs aren’t being replaced, and they never have been in any meaningful amount. We’ve reached the point where virtually all jobs are being offshored: unskilled and skilled. Assembly line workers, administrative personnel, engineers, designers, IT personnel, lawyers, executive staff. Most of these are not simply location changes: this is not an employee job transfer. The US employee stays here while his job is sent to another country, and someone there is hired, typically at anywhere from 3% to 30% of the cost of the US employee. If this trend continues unabated, where will American citizens obtain income? Even if you did away with ALL forms of entitlement programs, how will the US pay for military, local law enforcement, disease control, natural disaster recovery, water purification, power generation, and other basic life support operations without adequate revenue from payroll taxes?

Make no mistake: unchecked offshoring of jobs poses a significant danger to the stability of this nation.

[quote=carlsbadworker] 2. Yes, the corporations might be screwing US tax payers, but maximizing profits is what corporations do. But that standard, how much more screwed are the foreigners, where US corporations went there, paying under “50 cents an hour” , lowering “environmental standard” (which is just a nice way of saying exploiting their natural resources and killing people over long term via pollution), and dispatching the majority of the earning as profits, which are owned mainly by US citizens through their pensions and 401Ks, etc. As for Chinese trade surplus in US, they are only allowed to buy the worthless treasury notes that might actually default this summer (look at how many times the Congress has blocked Chinese from purchasing US companies/resources citing national security).[/quote]

I believe that my post included my awareness that the raison d’etre for corporations is the maximizing of profits. During my time in B-school (admittedly, some decades ago), a lot of attention was given to the characteristics of well-run successful companies vs. the not-so-well-run ones, and the methods and means by which a company generated profits were discussed frequently. Mass offshoring of jobs? Not so much. If you represented yourself as an American corporation, and took advantage of American opportunities such as tax exemptions and subsidies, you kept a fair amount of jobs in America.

I believe in capitalism, and I believe in a company’s right to pursue profits where they can be legally obtained. There’s not a company out there that I blame for offshoring jobs, even though I may not agree with their decision to do so. As you say, “life is full of shits”. However, I can, and I do, condemn every corporation that has permanently taken jobs offshore while wrapping themselves in the American flag and claiming identity as an “American company”. Those who have taken every possible exemption on their tax returns, and every possible rebate or subsidy. Those who lobbied for millions more in taxpayer subsidies to keep the last 500 factory jobs from moving overseas, and then moved them anyway a year after receiving the funds. Those who continue to take lucrative defense contracts (using those to prove their “patriotism” in advertising), even though they have plans on the books to permanently move their shipyards overseas.

There are profits, and then there’s greed. It’s not difficult to distinguish between them. And the greed of many of these “American” corporations is putting the security of the United States into jeopardy. You are free to make a profit. You are not free to rob and rape us while you are doing so.

If all of the jobs end up overseas, we have ourselves to blame. For not paying attention and not educating ourselves. For voting in the wrong people – not heeding the warnings of the few honest ones, but continuing to be charmed by the cheats and liars in Congress and the White House. Depending on the strength and will of the people, we’ll either survive or we won’t. But I’ll be damned if I’ll let any corporation, that is – during this most critical time in the existence of the United States – currently engaged in offshoring, convince me that they’re an “American” company. That’s just way more shit than I can handle in this life.

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