OT: Talk me out of my anti-partisian views.

[Allan from Fallbrook]

[quote=CA renter]
IMHO, policies enacted during Clinton’s presidency are most certainly behind our most recent bubbles, and also behind the devastation of our job base. I believe our elected representatives are merely puppets who serve the will of those who really run this country (the very wealthy and powerful). We’re supposed to go along with these fruitless elections because we’re supposed to believe that we can somehow hold them accountable. We can’t, and we won’t for as long as we vote for those who are put there by “those who matter” — always follow the money.[/quote]

Money quote.

Excellent post, CAR, and one that speaks directly to partisanship in this political age. There really isn’t a “Left” or a “Right” anymore. Given the absurd amounts of money needed to fuel a campaign, the politicians are bought and paid for well before they reach office and owe significant “favors” to those moneyed interests, not the electorate.

The Dems and the Repubs are now virtually indistinguishable from one another. If you think I’m wrong, ask yourself a few questions about President Obama:
– Is Gitmo closed yet?
– Have Patriot Acts I and II been repealed, or even slightly rolled back?
– Have we truly exited from Iraq?
– Are we winding down the war in Afghanistan?

We all know the answers, but the real question remains: How is Obama fundamentaly different from Bush on the above topics? Answer: He isn’t.

[briansd1]

[quote=XBoxBoy]
So, leaving aside Brian’s feeling that most everything we eat is unhealthy, (Dude, there’s some serious issues buried in that statement) my question to you two would be, if we just go along with the current two parties, how can we ever hope to change the system? For Hobie, if we don’t change things now, are you thinking we will sometime in the future? Why will the future be a better time?

XBoxBoy[/quote]

I was talking about restaurant food, when I go out. I don’t vomit what I eat, haha…. I’m sure some people vomit after they vote.

The human curse it that we can only make slow changes and we are bound to repeat the mistakes of our elders, no matter how much advance warning we get.

Radical positive change cannot happen. Revolution feels good but doesn’t work. You end up with retribution and a new elite that’s the same or worse than the old elite. It takes generations to form a competent governing elite so after a revolution you generally end up will well-meaning but ignorant people in power.

[briansd1]

[quote=XBoxBoy]
So, leaving aside Brian’s feeling that most everything we eat is unhealthy, (Dude, there’s some serious issues buried in that statement) my question to you two would be, if we just go along with the current two parties, how can we ever hope to change the system? For Hobie, if we don’t change things now, are you thinking we will sometime in the future? Why will the future be a better time?

XBoxBoy[/quote]

I was talking about restaurant food, when I go out. I don’t vomit what I eat, haha…. I’m sure some people vomit after they vote.

The human curse it that we can only make slow changes and we are bound to repeat the mistakes of our elders, no matter how much advance warning we get.

Radical positive change cannot happen. Revolution feels good but doesn’t work. You end up with retribution and a new elite that’s the same or worse than the old elite. It takes generations to form a competent governing elite so after a revolution you generally end up will well-meaning but ignorant people in power.

[briansd1]

[quote=XBoxBoy]
So, leaving aside Brian’s feeling that most everything we eat is unhealthy, (Dude, there’s some serious issues buried in that statement) my question to you two would be, if we just go along with the current two parties, how can we ever hope to change the system? For Hobie, if we don’t change things now, are you thinking we will sometime in the future? Why will the future be a better time?

XBoxBoy[/quote]

I was talking about restaurant food, when I go out. I don’t vomit what I eat, haha…. I’m sure some people vomit after they vote.

The human curse it that we can only make slow changes and we are bound to repeat the mistakes of our elders, no matter how much advance warning we get.

Radical positive change cannot happen. Revolution feels good but doesn’t work. You end up with retribution and a new elite that’s the same or worse than the old elite. It takes generations to form a competent governing elite so after a revolution you generally end up will well-meaning but ignorant people in power.

[briansd1]

[quote=XBoxBoy]
So, leaving aside Brian’s feeling that most everything we eat is unhealthy, (Dude, there’s some serious issues buried in that statement) my question to you two would be, if we just go along with the current two parties, how can we ever hope to change the system? For Hobie, if we don’t change things now, are you thinking we will sometime in the future? Why will the future be a better time?

XBoxBoy[/quote]

I was talking about restaurant food, when I go out. I don’t vomit what I eat, haha…. I’m sure some people vomit after they vote.

The human curse it that we can only make slow changes and we are bound to repeat the mistakes of our elders, no matter how much advance warning we get.

Radical positive change cannot happen. Revolution feels good but doesn’t work. You end up with retribution and a new elite that’s the same or worse than the old elite. It takes generations to form a competent governing elite so after a revolution you generally end up will well-meaning but ignorant people in power.

[briansd1]

[quote=XBoxBoy]
So, leaving aside Brian’s feeling that most everything we eat is unhealthy, (Dude, there’s some serious issues buried in that statement) my question to you two would be, if we just go along with the current two parties, how can we ever hope to change the system? For Hobie, if we don’t change things now, are you thinking we will sometime in the future? Why will the future be a better time?

XBoxBoy[/quote]

I was talking about restaurant food, when I go out. I don’t vomit what I eat, haha…. I’m sure some people vomit after they vote.

The human curse it that we can only make slow changes and we are bound to repeat the mistakes of our elders, no matter how much advance warning we get.

Radical positive change cannot happen. Revolution feels good but doesn’t work. You end up with retribution and a new elite that’s the same or worse than the old elite. It takes generations to form a competent governing elite so after a revolution you generally end up will well-meaning but ignorant people in power.

[Hobie]

XBB- Nice summary and its on the mark. In our current system it takes mucho $$ to run a campaign. So at the practical level the Independant, Green, and other parties while often having superior ideas and plans, cannot raise enough cash to be a market itself as a contender.

That said we must focus on the big two and holding each of them accountable to their promises. Yes, change is in order starting with eliminating earmarks, favors to lobbyists, drawing district lines, you get the idea.

The tax code is one of the main tools they have to exercise control. If we were ever able to convert to a simple flat tax that would be a great step in removing the power they wield.

[Hobie]

XBB- Nice summary and its on the mark. In our current system it takes mucho $$ to run a campaign. So at the practical level the Independant, Green, and other parties while often having superior ideas and plans, cannot raise enough cash to be a market itself as a contender.

That said we must focus on the big two and holding each of them accountable to their promises. Yes, change is in order starting with eliminating earmarks, favors to lobbyists, drawing district lines, you get the idea.

The tax code is one of the main tools they have to exercise control. If we were ever able to convert to a simple flat tax that would be a great step in removing the power they wield.

[Hobie]

XBB- Nice summary and its on the mark. In our current system it takes mucho $$ to run a campaign. So at the practical level the Independant, Green, and other parties while often having superior ideas and plans, cannot raise enough cash to be a market itself as a contender.

That said we must focus on the big two and holding each of them accountable to their promises. Yes, change is in order starting with eliminating earmarks, favors to lobbyists, drawing district lines, you get the idea.

The tax code is one of the main tools they have to exercise control. If we were ever able to convert to a simple flat tax that would be a great step in removing the power they wield.

[Hobie]

XBB- Nice summary and its on the mark. In our current system it takes mucho $$ to run a campaign. So at the practical level the Independant, Green, and other parties while often having superior ideas and plans, cannot raise enough cash to be a market itself as a contender.

That said we must focus on the big two and holding each of them accountable to their promises. Yes, change is in order starting with eliminating earmarks, favors to lobbyists, drawing district lines, you get the idea.

The tax code is one of the main tools they have to exercise control. If we were ever able to convert to a simple flat tax that would be a great step in removing the power they wield.

[Hobie]

XBB- Nice summary and its on the mark. In our current system it takes mucho $$ to run a campaign. So at the practical level the Independant, Green, and other parties while often having superior ideas and plans, cannot raise enough cash to be a market itself as a contender.

That said we must focus on the big two and holding each of them accountable to their promises. Yes, change is in order starting with eliminating earmarks, favors to lobbyists, drawing district lines, you get the idea.

The tax code is one of the main tools they have to exercise control. If we were ever able to convert to a simple flat tax that would be a great step in removing the power they wield.

[XBoxBoy]

[quote=teacherSD]In an attempt to bring the topic back to your original post I will give my opinion of your original question.[/quote]

Teacher, thanks for the thoughtful on topic post!

[quote=teacherSD]I had a politics professor in college who said that not voting was a waste.[/quote]

I tend to agree. Seems to me if you don’t vote the message you are sending is I can’t be bothered. But that’s not the message I want to send. I want to send the message, “Damn right I care, I just can’t stand the choices you’re offering and I’m fed up with it.”

[quote=teacherSD]The professor disagreed and said a better form of protest was to go to the voting booth and turn in a blank ballot.[/quote]

I think if this was publicized it could be very successful. But in today’s environment, I think it would just be taken as, “Look at this idiot, he’s too stupid to fill out a simple ballot.” If there was an organized movement to turn in blank ballots as a protest, then I’d do that in a heartbeat.

[quote=teacherSD]After the 2000 presidential election (Bush v. Gore) there was a lot of attention on which ballots “count” and I seem to remember that blank ballots are just thrown out. They do not keep track of the number of people who turn in blank ballots.[/quote]

I think this reflects the current attitude, turning in a blank ballot will be ignored. So that doesn’t seem such a good option.

[quote=teacherSD]I personally have started voting for third party candidates. If something like the Ross Perot effect happens, I don’t care. If Clinton wins because people voted for Perot instead of Bush and that bothers me, then I should have voted for Bush.[/quote]

This is pretty much my opinion. Thus the title of this thread challenging anyone to put forward arguments against this strategy. (That Clinton good, vs Clinton bad argument was less than successful guys)

[quote=teacherSD]Another possibility is to vote only for nonpartisan offices. However, I would be afraid that my whole ballot would be thrown out if it isn’t complete. I don’t know if this is true. Does anyone else know?[/quote]

I’m pretty sure that partially voted ballots still count for the races where ballots are cast.

But my problem with voting the “non-partisan offices” only is that they really are not non-partisan. The party name doesn’t appear on the ballot, but usually most the support for the candidates, (the money for those signs hung at busy intersections) comes from the parties or from connections the candidate has made at party meetings. These are more training grounds for people who want to become candidates for “partisan offices” later. So, in a way these offices are not “non-partisan” they are “unrevealed-partisan” offices. And the candidates are merely lining up to get training in the whole “I give you campaign funds, you trade favors” system.

XBoxBoy

[XBoxBoy]

[quote=teacherSD]In an attempt to bring the topic back to your original post I will give my opinion of your original question.[/quote]

Teacher, thanks for the thoughtful on topic post!

[quote=teacherSD]I had a politics professor in college who said that not voting was a waste.[/quote]

I tend to agree. Seems to me if you don’t vote the message you are sending is I can’t be bothered. But that’s not the message I want to send. I want to send the message, “Damn right I care, I just can’t stand the choices you’re offering and I’m fed up with it.”

[quote=teacherSD]The professor disagreed and said a better form of protest was to go to the voting booth and turn in a blank ballot.[/quote]

I think if this was publicized it could be very successful. But in today’s environment, I think it would just be taken as, “Look at this idiot, he’s too stupid to fill out a simple ballot.” If there was an organized movement to turn in blank ballots as a protest, then I’d do that in a heartbeat.

[quote=teacherSD]After the 2000 presidential election (Bush v. Gore) there was a lot of attention on which ballots “count” and I seem to remember that blank ballots are just thrown out. They do not keep track of the number of people who turn in blank ballots.[/quote]

I think this reflects the current attitude, turning in a blank ballot will be ignored. So that doesn’t seem such a good option.

[quote=teacherSD]I personally have started voting for third party candidates. If something like the Ross Perot effect happens, I don’t care. If Clinton wins because people voted for Perot instead of Bush and that bothers me, then I should have voted for Bush.[/quote]

This is pretty much my opinion. Thus the title of this thread challenging anyone to put forward arguments against this strategy. (That Clinton good, vs Clinton bad argument was less than successful guys)

[quote=teacherSD]Another possibility is to vote only for nonpartisan offices. However, I would be afraid that my whole ballot would be thrown out if it isn’t complete. I don’t know if this is true. Does anyone else know?[/quote]

I’m pretty sure that partially voted ballots still count for the races where ballots are cast.

But my problem with voting the “non-partisan offices” only is that they really are not non-partisan. The party name doesn’t appear on the ballot, but usually most the support for the candidates, (the money for those signs hung at busy intersections) comes from the parties or from connections the candidate has made at party meetings. These are more training grounds for people who want to become candidates for “partisan offices” later. So, in a way these offices are not “non-partisan” they are “unrevealed-partisan” offices. And the candidates are merely lining up to get training in the whole “I give you campaign funds, you trade favors” system.

XBoxBoy

[XBoxBoy]

[quote=teacherSD]In an attempt to bring the topic back to your original post I will give my opinion of your original question.[/quote]

Teacher, thanks for the thoughtful on topic post!

[quote=teacherSD]I had a politics professor in college who said that not voting was a waste.[/quote]

I tend to agree. Seems to me if you don’t vote the message you are sending is I can’t be bothered. But that’s not the message I want to send. I want to send the message, “Damn right I care, I just can’t stand the choices you’re offering and I’m fed up with it.”

[quote=teacherSD]The professor disagreed and said a better form of protest was to go to the voting booth and turn in a blank ballot.[/quote]

I think if this was publicized it could be very successful. But in today’s environment, I think it would just be taken as, “Look at this idiot, he’s too stupid to fill out a simple ballot.” If there was an organized movement to turn in blank ballots as a protest, then I’d do that in a heartbeat.

[quote=teacherSD]After the 2000 presidential election (Bush v. Gore) there was a lot of attention on which ballots “count” and I seem to remember that blank ballots are just thrown out. They do not keep track of the number of people who turn in blank ballots.[/quote]

I think this reflects the current attitude, turning in a blank ballot will be ignored. So that doesn’t seem such a good option.

[quote=teacherSD]I personally have started voting for third party candidates. If something like the Ross Perot effect happens, I don’t care. If Clinton wins because people voted for Perot instead of Bush and that bothers me, then I should have voted for Bush.[/quote]

This is pretty much my opinion. Thus the title of this thread challenging anyone to put forward arguments against this strategy. (That Clinton good, vs Clinton bad argument was less than successful guys)

[quote=teacherSD]Another possibility is to vote only for nonpartisan offices. However, I would be afraid that my whole ballot would be thrown out if it isn’t complete. I don’t know if this is true. Does anyone else know?[/quote]

I’m pretty sure that partially voted ballots still count for the races where ballots are cast.

But my problem with voting the “non-partisan offices” only is that they really are not non-partisan. The party name doesn’t appear on the ballot, but usually most the support for the candidates, (the money for those signs hung at busy intersections) comes from the parties or from connections the candidate has made at party meetings. These are more training grounds for people who want to become candidates for “partisan offices” later. So, in a way these offices are not “non-partisan” they are “unrevealed-partisan” offices. And the candidates are merely lining up to get training in the whole “I give you campaign funds, you trade favors” system.

XBoxBoy

[XBoxBoy]

[quote=teacherSD]In an attempt to bring the topic back to your original post I will give my opinion of your original question.[/quote]

Teacher, thanks for the thoughtful on topic post!

[quote=teacherSD]I had a politics professor in college who said that not voting was a waste.[/quote]

I tend to agree. Seems to me if you don’t vote the message you are sending is I can’t be bothered. But that’s not the message I want to send. I want to send the message, “Damn right I care, I just can’t stand the choices you’re offering and I’m fed up with it.”

[quote=teacherSD]The professor disagreed and said a better form of protest was to go to the voting booth and turn in a blank ballot.[/quote]

I think if this was publicized it could be very successful. But in today’s environment, I think it would just be taken as, “Look at this idiot, he’s too stupid to fill out a simple ballot.” If there was an organized movement to turn in blank ballots as a protest, then I’d do that in a heartbeat.

[quote=teacherSD]After the 2000 presidential election (Bush v. Gore) there was a lot of attention on which ballots “count” and I seem to remember that blank ballots are just thrown out. They do not keep track of the number of people who turn in blank ballots.[/quote]

I think this reflects the current attitude, turning in a blank ballot will be ignored. So that doesn’t seem such a good option.

[quote=teacherSD]I personally have started voting for third party candidates. If something like the Ross Perot effect happens, I don’t care. If Clinton wins because people voted for Perot instead of Bush and that bothers me, then I should have voted for Bush.[/quote]

This is pretty much my opinion. Thus the title of this thread challenging anyone to put forward arguments against this strategy. (That Clinton good, vs Clinton bad argument was less than successful guys)

[quote=teacherSD]Another possibility is to vote only for nonpartisan offices. However, I would be afraid that my whole ballot would be thrown out if it isn’t complete. I don’t know if this is true. Does anyone else know?[/quote]

I’m pretty sure that partially voted ballots still count for the races where ballots are cast.

But my problem with voting the “non-partisan offices” only is that they really are not non-partisan. The party name doesn’t appear on the ballot, but usually most the support for the candidates, (the money for those signs hung at busy intersections) comes from the parties or from connections the candidate has made at party meetings. These are more training grounds for people who want to become candidates for “partisan offices” later. So, in a way these offices are not “non-partisan” they are “unrevealed-partisan” offices. And the candidates are merely lining up to get training in the whole “I give you campaign funds, you trade favors” system.

XBoxBoy

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