ot: prostitution

[scaredyclassic]

people who are looking to get married say they want a partner…kind of implies a businessy aspect to it all.

I do feel tender when I list my people on a life insurance policy. I definitely wouldnt want some other dude listing her on his insurance policy.

the military press went well in the yard tonite.

92.5 lbs 5×5. I think my wife is somewhat more attracted to me. Soon i will be able to press her above my head, and you know women dig that. the military press is very difficult for me. i use fractional plates, which I recommend for anyone trying to improve their military press and who is suffering greatly, like me…

[briansd1]

I think that harvey articulated pretty well. Seems we all agree that prostitution should not be outlawed.

But there are problems with prostitution. It’s not like a prostitute can choose her client and when she provides the services. There could be angry clients and violence.

[scaredyclassic]

why can’t a system be imagined where a prostitute can turn down a client, same as any business or profession?

indeed, if she cannot turn anyone away, she’s not consenting. so that’s rape.

[scaredyclassic]

anyone remember dan aykroyd as fred garvin male prostitute?

http://www.hulu.com/watch/3514/saturday-night-live-fred-garvin-male-prostitute

[an]

[quote=squat250]why can’t a system be imagined where a prostitute can turn down a client, same as any business or profession?

indeed, if she cannot turn anyone away, she’s not consenting. so that’s rape.[/quote]
I’m pretty sure girls at the Bunny Ranch can turn down the guy if she wanted too. I totally agree that if she cannot turn down anyone, then she’s not consenting and that’d be rape. Being in a place like the Bunny Ranch vs some dark alley or at some John’s house gives the woman so much more protection from rape and abuse. After all, they have cameras in every room.

[CA renter]

[quote=davelj][quote=harvey][quote=davelj]You use the word “definitely” and I’m not sure where your proof lies. This might be the case. And it might not. Frankly, I would like to think that it is. I just haven’t seen much evidence of it.[/quote]

You’re say you’re not sure there is evidence of correlation between parenting and a woman’s choices in relationships…

…on a thread about prostitution?

Let’s take a trip to the Bunny Ranch and chat with some of the gals. If you can find one girl who had a father even half as committed as flu, I’ll buy you an hour with her.[/quote]

I’m not sure that prostitution is more about socioeconomic background than anything else. (Although one could argue that not having a father around can lead to a bad socioeconomic situation… and then we’d be getting into issues of correlation versus causation.)

Allow me to make a crass comparison to raise a point.

Profile 1: Upper-middle class wife (whose parents remained married) who remains married to her husband (and the father of her children) – whom she doesn’t really like much anymore – only “to keep the family together” and maintain material comforts.

Profile 2: Woman from lower socioeconomic stratum (whose parents divorced) who has sex with men in exchange for the money she needs to live and take care of her kids.

What’s the difference, really? They’re both having sex with men they don’t love to maintain a standard of living for them and their kids. The first is legal; the second one’s not.

I’m just sayin’…

(I’ll pass on the Bunny Ranch but I appreciate the offer.)[/quote]

There are HUGE differences between these two situations.

When children are involved, everything changes. Marriage is about far more than “romantic love.”

I’m willing to bet that the #2 woman would prefer to be with the father of her children instead of having to “turn tricks” in order to support her children. Keeping the family intact is very important, though it’s not “politically correct” to admit this. There is overwhelming evidence that children have better outcomes when they live with both parents vs. living with divorced parents. Also, splitting marital assets leaves **everybody** worse off.

Agreeing to hang out for as long as everything is “hunky dory” is called dating…though some people get confused and marry when they are not really committed to the other person. REAL marriage is (IMHO) what people do when they are committing to go through the most difficult times together.

Most children would prefer to have their parents stay married even if the parents have a “loveless” marriage (not referring to the outliers where there is **severe** adiction/abuse/adultery going on).

Some interesting info on divorce and happiness, which might be intuitive to many married people, offers a likely explanation for why many don’t divorce even when they are in a “loveless” marriage:

————

Does Divorce Make People Happy?
Findings from a Study of Unhappy Marriages
By Linda J. Waite, Don Browning, William J. Doherty, Maggie Gallagher, Ye Luo, and Scott M. Stanley

• Unhappily married adults who divorced or separated were no happier, on average, than unhappily married adults who stayed married. Even unhappy spouses who had divorced and remarried were no happier, on average, than unhappy spouses who stayed married. This was true even after controlling for race, age, gender, and income.

• Divorce did not reduce symptoms of depression for unhappily married adults, or raise their self-esteem, or increase their sense of mastery, on average, compared to unhappy spouses who stayed married. This was true even after controlling for race, age, gender, and income.

• The vast majority of divorces (74 percent) happened to adults who had been happily married five years previously. In this group, divorce was associated with dramatic declines in happiness and psychological well-being compared to those who stayed married.

…• Two out of three unhappily married adults who avoided divorce or separation ended up happily married five years later. Just one out of five of unhappy spouses who divorced or separated had happily remarried in the same time period.

http://www.americanvalues.org/html/does_divorce_make_people_happy.html

[CA renter]

More statistics regarding fatherless homes:

The following statistics indicate how important it is for fathers to be an active participant in their children’s lives.

Fatherless children are 100-200% more likely to have emotional and behavioral problems according to the National Center on Health Statistics.
Fatherless sons are 300% more likely to be incarcerated in state juvenile institutions.
Fatherless daughters are 164% more likely to give birth to an illegitimate child.
71% of pregnant teens are from fatherless homes.
Fatherless daughters are 92% more likely to fail in their own marriages.
Fatherless men are 35% more likely to experience marital failure.
90% of all homeless and runaway children are from fatherless homes.
75% of all adolescent patients in chemical abuse centers are from fatherless homes.
Children from father absent homes make up 63% of youth suicides.
85% of children who exhibit anti-social behavior disorders are from fatherless homes.
72% of adolescent murderers grew up in fatherless homes.
Fatherless sons are more than twice as likely to engage in some kind of criminal activity.
Fatherless daughters are 53% more likely to get married in their teenage years.
Fatherless young adults are twice as likely to need psychological help.
More than 70% of all juveniles in state reform institutions come from fatherless homes.

http://jeffco.us/cse/cse_T86_R33.htm

[davelj]

[quote=harvey]Perhaps a more precise way to say it would be that you can’t “equate” them. [/quote]

Agreed, and then I un-equated (perhaps not a word) them to some extent with, “I agree with you that there are differences… just not as much as would appear on the surface.”

[quote=harvey]

Which you tried to do but didn’t make a compelling case. [/quote]

Perhaps an “in my opinion” or “in my view” should be added here? I assume you don’t feel you’re the last word on Everything.

[quote=harvey]
Your model for “Profile 1” one is absurdly oversimplified. [/quote]

You just described 99% of all internet posts in which a complex topic is being discussed. I apologize for not having the time to post a dissertation.

[quote=harvey]
The “we are all prostitutes” generalization is trite. Superficially it sorta makes sense but it’s pretty shallow and intellectually lazy.[/quote]

Yes, “in your opinion” (again)… I was unaware that you were the Arbiter of Shallow and Intellectual Laziness on the Internet. But your opinion is duly noted.

[quote=harvey]
A key word when discussing prostitution is “dignity” – sure it’s a subjective word, but it does have meaning and it does have value.

Although some jobs and roles in life have less dignity than others, it is universally accepted that prostitution is at the bottom of the scale – low enough that no one should have to do it simply because they have no alternative. We all do things we don’t like to make a living, but there is an ethical threshold that society must recognize. I don’t know exactly where the line is, but I know prostitution is on the other side of it. It certainly is not just another job.

We should not outlaw prostitution or condemn prostitutes, but we should strive for a world where nobody has to be a prostitute unless it is truly what they want to be.

Because being a prostitute is a helluva lot different than being a consultant, or a dishwasher, or a woman in a marriage that has grown apart after a decade or so.[/quote]

From what I can gather – if the internet is right on this statistic – prostitutes average about $45K-$50K annually in earnings. Obviously, there’s a wide variation – I’m sure there are some who make several hundred thousand dollars annually and others (the “crack whores” noted above) that make considerably less. That pay range happens to be about in the middle of all pay for all jobs in the US. So, clearly if one was willing to earn less at another job, one could do so. But most prostitutes (that aren’t trafficked slaves) apparently want to make more money (than the lower-paying job for which they’re qualified). Let me be clear – prostitution has gotta be pretty low on the “desirability” job scale – I won’t argue otherwise. But clearly for a lot of women the trade-off is more than worth it.

You speak of “dignity” and “universally accepted” notions of such. I don’t pay much attention to what’s “universally accepted” which is I think at the root of our differences. “Dignity” is what you make of it. Furthermore, in many ancient cultures prostitutes were held in high regard from a social standpoint (the so-called “sacred prostitute”). Clearly, religion and the passage of time have had their effect on such notions.

The root of the issue here is that lots of folks see “sex” as something “sacred” – even many of those folks who would support legalizing prostitution. I don’t. In my view, it’s just an activity that can be used for procreation, enjoyment, compensation, in combination with “love”, or whatever… nothing more. Which is why we’ll likely never see eye-to-eye on this issue. Which is ok.

[davelj]

[quote=CA renter]More statistics regarding fatherless homes:

The following statistics indicate how important it is for fathers to be an active participant in their children’s lives.

Fatherless children are 100-200% more likely to have emotional and behavioral problems according to the National Center on Health Statistics.
Fatherless sons are 300% more likely to be incarcerated in state juvenile institutions.
Fatherless daughters are 164% more likely to give birth to an illegitimate child.
71% of pregnant teens are from fatherless homes.
Fatherless daughters are 92% more likely to fail in their own marriages.
Fatherless men are 35% more likely to experience marital failure.
90% of all homeless and runaway children are from fatherless homes.
75% of all adolescent patients in chemical abuse centers are from fatherless homes.
Children from father absent homes make up 63% of youth suicides.
85% of children who exhibit anti-social behavior disorders are from fatherless homes.
72% of adolescent murderers grew up in fatherless homes.
Fatherless sons are more than twice as likely to engage in some kind of criminal activity.
Fatherless daughters are 53% more likely to get married in their teenage years.
Fatherless young adults are twice as likely to need psychological help.
More than 70% of all juveniles in state reform institutions come from fatherless homes.

http://jeffco.us/cse/cse_T86_R33.htm%5B/quote%5D

I wonder how much of this is about “not having a father around” and how much of it is “socioeconomic issues” that tend to arise when the father’s not around. In other words, I think that if you separate the “father” issue from the “economic” issue a reasonable portion – but not all – of these negative effects disappear. To be clear, I think that having both parents around is going to be better the vast majority of the time. But, I do think these stats are misleading without an overlay of economic issues.

[Anonymous]

[quote=davelj]From what I can gather – if the internet is right on this statistic – prostitutes average about $45K-$50K annually in earnings.[/quote]

I have no idea where you get those numbers, but I agree it may be reasonable that they bring in that much revenue per year. But I wonder how much they get to keep and how much they hand over to the men that own them, under the threat of violence. Anyone that doesn’t think that the majority of prostitutes are basically someone else’s property (even where prostitution is legal) is pretty naive.

[quote]Furthermore, in many ancient cultures prostitutes were held in high regard from a social standpoint (the so-called “sacred prostitute”).[/quote]

That’s more mythology than fact. And if you really want to offer the “value systems” of ancient cultures into evidence, then you have to include the whole package (e.g. slavery, human sacrifice, caste systems, etc.) Just because someone once did it somewhere, doesn’t mean it’s OK.

We now live in an age where notions like inalienable rights, individual equality and, yes, even human dignity are the ideals we strive to promote. Prostitution, as it exists in actual practice, often contradicts those values.

[quote]The root of the issue here is that lots of folks see “sex” as something “sacred” – even many of those folks who would support legalizing prostitution.[/quote]

Not just me – our society and every society that has evolved out of the dark ages, see sex as something “sacred.” That’s why rape and child pornography are treated as the most egregious crimes in our society. That’s why sex offenders are treated as a special class of criminals. That’s why there is so much debate about how and when we teach our children about sex.

Anything that involves the most intimate parts of a person’s body and that is hard-wired to our emotional state deserves special treatment. If we don’t consider sex to be “sacred,” then there would be no reason to consider rape as more serious than financial fraud or even burglary.

And these are the reasons why any attempt to equate sex as “just another recreational activity” or prostitution “as just another business activity” is completely flawed. Sex is different.

[briansd1]

[quote=harvey]
We now live in an age where notions like inalienable rights, individual equality and, yes, even human dignity are the ideals we strive to promote. Prostitution, as it exists in actual practice, often contradicts those values.
[/quote]

[quote=harvey]
And these are the reasons why any attempt to equate sex as “just another recreational activity” or prostitution “as just another business activity” is completely flawed. Sex is different.[/quote]

I agree.

Sex is different, but I don’t believe that it’s sacred. Sacred to me means revered like a God.

I believe that anything involving the human body is different. That why physical attacks are punished more than financial crimes.

I suppose you can advertise as a consultant on Graigslist and get some business. You can also turn down business.

But if you advertise as a prostitute, once you meet the client, he/she will want the service. Otherwise, there could be anger and violence.

If it were so easy to be a prostitute, I would moonlight and advertise my services as long as I could turn down anybody I wanted. I think that I could make a few thousands per year.

[Diego Mamani]

[quote=harvey]I agree that legalization reduces some of the problems, but probably not the human trafficking and slavery. I know at one time it this was a big problem in Amsterdam – maybe it has improved. We all know we cannot eliminate prostitution, but making it legal probably will make it more common and thus may make some of the problems that come with it more common.[/quote]
Here’s where we have to agree to disagree. For me it’s obvious that making the business legal, regulated, and transparent, would reduce slavery. We know what happened with alcohol prohibition in the U.S.: consumption dropped only a little, but we got plenty of violence, organized crime, corruption in the police and judiciary (even in congress), etc. Not to mention the deaths and disease caused by poorly made illegal booze. I think that the problems caused by prohibition were far worse than the problems caused by alcohol itself. It’s the same with cocaine and prostitution: making them illegal only fosters crime while consumption goes on.

(So, you are pri_dk, not FLU, right?)

[davelj]

[quote=harvey]

Not just me – our society and every society that has evolved out of the dark ages, see sex as something “sacred.” That’s why rape and child pornography are treated as the most egregious crimes in our society. That’s why sex offenders are treated as a special class of criminals. That’s why there is so much debate about how and when we teach our children about sex.

Anything that involves the most intimate parts of a person’s body and that is hard-wired to our emotional state deserves special treatment. If we don’t consider sex to be “sacred,” then there would be no reason to consider rape as more serious than financial fraud or even burglary.

And these are the reasons why any attempt to equate sex as “just another recreational activity” or prostitution “as just another business activity” is completely flawed. Sex is different.[/quote]

I should have said just an activity “between adults” – my mistake for omitting that distinction. And recall… these are my opinions (as I’ve made clear). I realize that much of the rest of society won’t agree with me here and I’m perfectly ok with that.

[briansd1]

Gambling is also an interesting parallel to prostitution. It used to be associated with the mob but it’s now very corporatized. Families think nothing of going to Vegas for the weekend.

[outtamojo]

[quote=davelj][quote=harvey]

Not just me – our society and every society that has evolved out of the dark ages, see sex as something “sacred.” That’s why rape and child pornography are treated as the most egregious crimes in our society. That’s why sex offenders are treated as a special class of criminals. That’s why there is so much debate about how and when we teach our children about sex.

Anything that involves the most intimate parts of a person’s body and that is hard-wired to our emotional state deserves special treatment. If we don’t consider sex to be “sacred,” then there would be no reason to consider rape as more serious than financial fraud or even burglary.

And these are the reasons why any attempt to equate sex as “just another recreational activity” or prostitution “as just another business activity” is completely flawed. Sex is different.[/quote]

I should have said just an activity “between adults” – my mistake for omitting that distinction. And recall… these are my opinions (as I’ve made clear). I realize that much of the rest of society won’t agree with me here and I’m perfectly ok with that.[/quote]

You know, when sex is TOO sacred you have fathers murdering their own daughters for family honor, female circumsion, acid attacks etc- no thank you.
Also, I think it is agreed we are none of us approving child prostitution in any way shape or form.

[Author]

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