ot: prostitution

[Diego Mamani]

[quote=harvey]Not just me – our society and every society that has evolved out of the dark ages, see sex as something “sacred.” That’s why rape and child pornography are treated as the most egregious crimes in our society. That’s why sex offenders are treated as a special class of criminals. That’s why there is so much debate about how and when we teach our children about sex.

Anything that involves the most intimate parts of a person’s body and that is hard-wired to our emotional state deserves special treatment. If we don’t consider sex to be “sacred,” then there would be no reason to consider rape as more serious than financial fraud or even burglary.[/quote]
We don’t need to resort to supernatural beliefs (i.e., “sacred”) to distinguish rape from financial crimes. Or are you saying that non-religious people should be OK with being raped because nothing is sacred to them? Rape is a monstrous crime, far more serious than financial fraud or burglary because a person’s intimacy is violated. There’s no need to bring religious or supernatural beliefs or invoke “sacredness” to characterize rape.

In any case, this makes clear that opposition to legal prostitution stems from religious beliefs. That’s fine, but you shouldn’t use the law to impose your beliefs on the rest of society.

Bringing rape, slavery, and human trafficking into this discussion only serves to cloud the real issues. But it also reveals the fact that religious people have been brought up to believe that prostitution (strictly speaking a victimless business transaction between two consenting adults) is so “wrong” and “evil” that they equate it with rape and human trafficking (which are obviously monstrous crimes). But they can’t be equated, one is a transaction, the other a horrible crime.

[Anonymous]

[quote]We don’t need to resort to supernatural beliefs (i.e., “sacred”) to distinguish rape from financial crimes. Or are you saying that non-religious people should be OK with being raped because nothing is sacred to them?

[…]
[/quote]

I put the word sacred in quotes to imply that the meaning stopped short of a strict definition that implied the supernatural or even religion.

Not all usages of sacred are necessarily religious – it can also simply mean an ethical imperative.

For example, equal rights, civil liberties, a woman’s “right to choose,” etc. are “sacred” values that many non-religious people hold.

I don’t really care what religious people have been brought up to believe – it’s not relevant to policy decisions. I do care about the real world facts, and there is overwhelming data linking prostitution to violence, rape, and human trafficking.

Prostitution is really the only reason that human trafficking exists at all today, so that fact alone is ample evidence that there is no way to cleanly separate the two.

[davelj]

Related, but off topic, “Asian Hooker” by (80s hair metal parody band) Steel Panther:

(Warning: extreme language and misogynistic lyrics… generally offensive)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IqngrRBIpkw

These are the same guys that were in the Danger Kitty Discover Card commercial from many years back:

This is probably where I get banned from Piggington for extremely poor taste…

[briansd1]

I think the prostitution is not the only reason humans are trafficked.
Free or cheap labor is the reason — maids, factory workers, farmers, prostitutes, etc…

On prostitution, even migrant workers have hookers servicing them.

Our sexual attitudes keep women down I believe. If sex were not shameful, men and the establishment would lose some power over women.

[UCGal]

[quote=harvey]

Prostitution is really the only reason that human trafficking exists at all today, so that fact alone is ample evidence that there is no way to cleanly separate the two.[/quote]

No – child soldiers kidnapped and brainwashed to fight wars could also be considered human trafficking. Think of the warlords in Uganda and Somalia that kidnap young boys and turn them into soldiers… using the same techniques that are used on prostitutes – get them dependent on drugs, systematically build up and destroy their esteem till they can’t think for themselves… enslave them.

In fact when you stated earlier:

[quote=harvey]
Although some jobs and roles in life have less dignity than others, it is universally accepted that prostitution is at the bottom of the scale – low enough that no one should have to do it simply because they have no alternative. [/quote]

(bolds are mine – that’s the bit that struck me when I first read it.)

The first thing that came to mind was that people forced to kill others might be considered by some to be lower on the scale. So not so universally accepted.

I personally would rather sleep with icky people than kill someone who’d done me no harm just because someone told me too.

[Diego Mamani]

From our Wikipedia friends. Countries in red have made prostitution illegal (of course, there’s as much prostitution as in other countries, but mafias are in charge wherever there is prohibition of something people really want):

What this graph shows is that other than the US, South Africa, and some Scandinavian countries, this business is outlawed wherever there are authoritarian regimes.

Color codes
Green: Prostitution legal and regulated
Blue: Prostitution legal and unregulated, but organised activities such as brothels and pimping are illegal
Red: Prostitution illegal
Gray: No data

[Diego Mamani]

[quote=harvey]Although some jobs and roles in life have less dignity than others, it is universally accepted that prostitution is at the bottom of the scale – low enough that no one should have to do it simply because they have no alternative.[/quote]
(Emphasis added)
I agree with UCGal that prostitution is far from being at the bottom of the scale. More importantly, we are not talking here about people who have to prostitute themselves. We are talking about people who want to.

I think that, in your mind, prostitution and human trafficking are so conflated, that you can’t think about one without bringing the other into the discussion. But that way of thinking clouds the issue.

[Anonymous]

[quote=UCGal]No – child soldiers kidnapped and brainwashed to fight wars could also be considered human trafficking. Think of the warlords in Uganda and Somalia that kidnap young boys and turn them into soldiers…[/quote]

I’m not going to argue which is “worse” – as both what you describe above and sex-slavery are well below the threshold of civilized behavior and that’s all that really matters.

But the use of child soldiers is first, far more rare than sex-trafficking and, second, is not something where there is really any policy issue. We all agree that it’s an abomination, and most agree that there’s very little we can do about these problems short of military invasion.

Prostitution is worthy of debate because there are choices to make and tradeoffs that come with those choices. One of those tradeoffs is the question of whether we are creating situations where people must sacrifice basic dignity in order to survive. I’m actually surprised that the “enlightened” Northern Europeans don’t emphasize this more.

[Anonymous]

[quote=Diego Mamani]I think that, in your mind, prostitution and human trafficking are so conflated, that you can’t think about one without bringing the other into the discussion. But that way of thinking clouds the issue.[/quote]

Not just in my mind. In real life. There is plenty of evidence. Research prostitution in any of the countries where it is legal and the trafficking is still there.

Trying to create a clean, perfect model of the world where issues are entirely separate may not be “cloudy,” but it is not reality either.

[Anonymous]

Brian and UCGal make some good points about the human trafficking.

To be more precise my statement would have to be qualified as “human trafficking into developed countries.” Yes, lots of places have bad stuff going on, but that’s more because there is simply no rule of law in those places.

Human trafficking in the US, Europe, and the developed parts of Asia are pretty-much exclusively for the purposes of prostitution (with the exception if illegal immigration in the US but that is a more complicated issue…)

As for Diego’s map, it may be worthwhile to educate ourselves about what goes on in “legal but regulated” countries not far from home:

https://www.google.com/search?q=sex+trade+in+mexico

BTW, the “authoritarian regimes” conclusion is ridiculous.

Anyway, I’m not arguing that prostitution should not be legal, I’m just pointing out that it is not “just another business” and there is really bad stuff that simply cannot be disassociated with it.

[briansd1]

I remember reading not that long ago about immigrants forced into labor as welders somewhere in Texas. They came here as contract workers but were forced into servitude and weren’t paid

[patb]

[quote=harvey]P
Although some jobs and roles in life have less dignity than others, it is universally accepted that prostitution is at the bottom of the scale – .[/quote]

woah harvey.

high end call girl is way more dignified then working minimum wage at McDonalds.

there are lots of dirty jobs, workign with the AIDS monkeys in the NIH,
interning for John McLaughlin. Frankly Call Girl sounds a heck of a lot more dignified then fetching coffee for Grover Norquist.

[Anonymous]

Those are funny! (and the John McLaughlin one was funny even though I’m not sure what you mean – is there more to that than I know?)

But none of those jobs involve putting things in your mouth.

Just sayin’

[Diego Mamani]

[quote=harvey]BTW, the “authoritarian regimes” conclusion is ridiculous.[/quote]
It’s not a conclusion because it’s a mere restatement of factual evidence, and hence can’t be ridiculous.

Let’s see-
Countries where it’s legal: France, Brazil, UK, India, Canada, Argentina, Germany, Brazil, Italy, Spain, and their peers
Countries where it’s illegal: Saudi Arabia, China, Libya, Syria, Egypt, Russia, and their peers

So, what list has more authoritarian regimes? Or better put, what list doesn’t have any authoritarian regimes? It looks to me like the US would do better shifting to the first list of countries.

[quote=harvey]Anyway, I’m not arguing that prostitution should not be legal, I’m just pointing out that it is not “just another business” and there is really bad stuff that simply cannot be disassociated with it.[/quote]
We largely agree then. The same could be said of cars… it’s no just another business b/c people can easily be killed. Cars are legal, but it’s not a free-for-all, do-what-you-want system. Cars are manufactured according to strict standards set by the gov’t, drivers need to be licensed, rules of the road are heavily enforced, etc. Cars could kill people if poorly manufactured or clumsily driven, or they could be used to commit serious crimes. But still, we choose to keep cars legal, although with heavy regulation.

The same could be done with prostitution.

[Anonymous]

Thanks for the clarification. I’ll be sure to avoid the authoritarian regimes of Sweden and Norway on my next trip to Europe.

So was Germany an authoritarian regime all the way up till the year 2002? Interesting, I thought they got rid of the authoritarian stuff back in 1945…

[Author]

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