OT: New grad/profession/school pay….

[Anonymous]

[quote=flu]
I don’t know. I think someone grad who invested 4-6 years in school in engineering in 2004/5 versus the equivalent of someone that did a bachelor in “business” would probably be looking pretty peachy right now, since the fear of outsourcing itself is doing a pretty good job creating a vacuum of good candidates domestically. Starting salaries of $80-90k for fresh grads/or folks with 1-2 years of experience isn’t exactly something to blow off these days imho. The problem I think is these millienium generation types want instant gratification, and expect to start making high six figures from day one, which sorry to say, only happens if you are the small percentage that end up on Wall Street…[/quote]

Interesting debate. I know I’m not recognized here so let me make a brief introduction: born and raised in the San Fernando Valley, went to college at UCI and graduated in ’05. I started reading Piggington religiously when I worked in Carlsbad in ’06, and although I moved from the area in ’08 I’ve maintained my daily ritual of visiting this site. I’m currently in North Carolina (20 miles outside of Charlotte) working in property management for an international developer of retail properties and have been working for the same employer for over 4 years now (hence the name Westbound, since I intend on moving back to Carlsbad…absolutely loved it when I was there!).

I’ve always enjoyed the discussions but never felt the urge to create an account since it was obvious the folks here have tons more experience/knowledge than me, and I didn’t believe I had much to contribute. I’ve been debating this topic regularly with friends and colleagues since I graduated from college five years ago so it feels right that this would be my first post 🙂

I ended up graduating from school with two social science degrees, Econ + Poli Sci. Although most of the upper-div econ courses I took were quantative-based (lower division being more theory), it wasn’t nearly as math-focused as any of the engineering tracks. Econ was as close to a “business” degree the UC system had when I attended (I got a minor in Management, although that was pretty much a joke), outside of Riverside and I think Berkeley, which is why I opted for it.

The way I see/saw it, the social science track is one for those that don’t really know what they want to do for the rest of their lives as a 19/20 y/o. I knew that I wanted to work in the real estate industry, but I had no clue as to the function. I had a few friends who went into engineering, and all of them had very clear career goals and were taking classes that matched them.

As to who’s better off? I honestly believe it’s a crapshoot and is highly dependent upon the individual (obvious, I know). If people are intelligent they will play to their strengths. I knew I didn’t have a passion for engineering and realized I wasn’t gifted enough in the skills required to truly excel in an engineering-related field. I decided to roll the dice with social science degrees and hoped to land with a good company, find a good mentor and figure out the best path (which came to fruition).

The majority of my friends went into law, and the overwhelming majority are struggling, to say the least. Most have over $100k in debt (some over $200k) and can’t even get paralegal work after graduating from top-20 law schools. They’re at a loss at what to do and I do feel for them, but in the end it’s all about what people are willing to sacrifice to attain their goals…a few of them do have plush salaries and are working for big firms. I have the dreaded social science degree and can easily quantify what it did for me: helped landed me an interview, and not much else. It is frustrating that what I studied at the University didn’t exactly translate into my career, but in taking a more holistic approach I believe it was well worth it. I’ve been able to work for the same industry leader for over four years and am managing a team of managers, admin staff and contractors, so I feel like I’m doing ok.

I do think there has been a disconnect between the expectation of salary/level of employment upon newly-minted undergrads and MBAs (I have friends who went this route as well), but I think the constant media surrounding the state of our economy including unemployment levels around the country have brought expectations back down to ground-level.

In the end, if I had to quantify it, I would say that it’s 80% individual characteristics (including ambition, motivation, intelligence, people skills, network, etc.) and 20% timing/luck. IMO, what the degree is in, whether it’s engineering or political science, doesn’t alter the above ratio.

[scaredyclassic]

SHOP CLASS AS SOULCRAFT by matthew crawford.

good book on the issue.

i know the title sounds cheesy but the book is smart and interesting. kind of a “zena nd the art of motorcycle maintenance meets this topic.

[scaredyclassic]

SHOP CLASS AS SOULCRAFT by matthew crawford.

good book on the issue.

i know the title sounds cheesy but the book is smart and interesting. kind of a “zena nd the art of motorcycle maintenance meets this topic.

[scaredyclassic]

SHOP CLASS AS SOULCRAFT by matthew crawford.

good book on the issue.

i know the title sounds cheesy but the book is smart and interesting. kind of a “zena nd the art of motorcycle maintenance meets this topic.

[scaredyclassic]

SHOP CLASS AS SOULCRAFT by matthew crawford.

good book on the issue.

i know the title sounds cheesy but the book is smart and interesting. kind of a “zena nd the art of motorcycle maintenance meets this topic.

[scaredyclassic]

SHOP CLASS AS SOULCRAFT by matthew crawford.

good book on the issue.

i know the title sounds cheesy but the book is smart and interesting. kind of a “zena nd the art of motorcycle maintenance meets this topic.

[meadandale]

[quote=walterwhite]SHOP CLASS AS SOULCRAFT by matthew crawford.

good book on the issue.

i know the title sounds cheesy but the book is smart and interesting. kind of a “zena nd the art of motorcycle maintenance meets this topic.[/quote]

It’s funny because I saw this article the other day:

http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/2010/jul/22/ground-broken-school-auto-shop/

Looks like auto shop is coming back to schools…

[meadandale]

[quote=walterwhite]SHOP CLASS AS SOULCRAFT by matthew crawford.

good book on the issue.

i know the title sounds cheesy but the book is smart and interesting. kind of a “zena nd the art of motorcycle maintenance meets this topic.[/quote]

It’s funny because I saw this article the other day:

http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/2010/jul/22/ground-broken-school-auto-shop/

Looks like auto shop is coming back to schools…

[meadandale]

[quote=walterwhite]SHOP CLASS AS SOULCRAFT by matthew crawford.

good book on the issue.

i know the title sounds cheesy but the book is smart and interesting. kind of a “zena nd the art of motorcycle maintenance meets this topic.[/quote]

It’s funny because I saw this article the other day:

http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/2010/jul/22/ground-broken-school-auto-shop/

Looks like auto shop is coming back to schools…

[meadandale]

[quote=walterwhite]SHOP CLASS AS SOULCRAFT by matthew crawford.

good book on the issue.

i know the title sounds cheesy but the book is smart and interesting. kind of a “zena nd the art of motorcycle maintenance meets this topic.[/quote]

It’s funny because I saw this article the other day:

http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/2010/jul/22/ground-broken-school-auto-shop/

Looks like auto shop is coming back to schools…

[meadandale]

[quote=walterwhite]SHOP CLASS AS SOULCRAFT by matthew crawford.

good book on the issue.

i know the title sounds cheesy but the book is smart and interesting. kind of a “zena nd the art of motorcycle maintenance meets this topic.[/quote]

It’s funny because I saw this article the other day:

http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/2010/jul/22/ground-broken-school-auto-shop/

Looks like auto shop is coming back to schools…

[Coronita]

[quote=meadandale][quote=flu]Just ask QC…and their challenge to meet growth targets….Throwing 10x “outsourced contractors” in one big kitchen with turnover left and right in India isn’t sticking…LOL…[/quote]

Yeah, rumor is…they’ve been calling some of the US contractors that got let go last year to come back and help them with some of the projects they developed. Apparently the outsourced folks don’t have the skills. Imagine that.[/quote]

The problem is they relied too much on said companies like W and the likes….And not they are paying for it……The problem is the old timers their have never seen/done management outside their nice little kingdom they managed to get lucky with..Glue on top of glue, patch on top of patch…Their entire SW process is a complete mess from what candidates I talked to from there say. And now they need to look outside to cleanup the mess. Of course, this is freaking out folks that have had a cushy “leadership” position there for the past decade, because obviously it’s a direct threat to them..This, again, is what the folks from some of the contracting firms that I bump into are saying trying to get out of the mess…..Lol….Funny thing is all said U.S. contractors that were let go and were really good….my buddy’s firm has gobbled up (and ironically are directly competing with QC)…

Who would have thought that throwing in say 50-100 contractors who don’t give a crap about maintenance into a soup kitchen and asking them to cook something without any guidance oversight on maintaining something longer than 1 production release wouldn’t work????? But hey, that’s what the MBA’s are “recommending” who conveniently forget to read the chapter on product lifecycle management…Now, said people get to payup big time by spending more dollars hiring all the heroic cleanup crews… And now if you are part of the U.S. contractor who is now part of the cleanup crew, you’d be stupid to actually document anything you do in any meaningful way that some monkey-see-monkey do contractor at half your rate would be able to pick up….Suckers…

[Coronita]

[quote=meadandale][quote=flu]Just ask QC…and their challenge to meet growth targets….Throwing 10x “outsourced contractors” in one big kitchen with turnover left and right in India isn’t sticking…LOL…[/quote]

Yeah, rumor is…they’ve been calling some of the US contractors that got let go last year to come back and help them with some of the projects they developed. Apparently the outsourced folks don’t have the skills. Imagine that.[/quote]

The problem is they relied too much on said companies like W and the likes….And not they are paying for it……The problem is the old timers their have never seen/done management outside their nice little kingdom they managed to get lucky with..Glue on top of glue, patch on top of patch…Their entire SW process is a complete mess from what candidates I talked to from there say. And now they need to look outside to cleanup the mess. Of course, this is freaking out folks that have had a cushy “leadership” position there for the past decade, because obviously it’s a direct threat to them..This, again, is what the folks from some of the contracting firms that I bump into are saying trying to get out of the mess…..Lol….Funny thing is all said U.S. contractors that were let go and were really good….my buddy’s firm has gobbled up (and ironically are directly competing with QC)…

Who would have thought that throwing in say 50-100 contractors who don’t give a crap about maintenance into a soup kitchen and asking them to cook something without any guidance oversight on maintaining something longer than 1 production release wouldn’t work????? But hey, that’s what the MBA’s are “recommending” who conveniently forget to read the chapter on product lifecycle management…Now, said people get to payup big time by spending more dollars hiring all the heroic cleanup crews… And now if you are part of the U.S. contractor who is now part of the cleanup crew, you’d be stupid to actually document anything you do in any meaningful way that some monkey-see-monkey do contractor at half your rate would be able to pick up….Suckers…

[Coronita]

[quote=meadandale][quote=flu]Just ask QC…and their challenge to meet growth targets….Throwing 10x “outsourced contractors” in one big kitchen with turnover left and right in India isn’t sticking…LOL…[/quote]

Yeah, rumor is…they’ve been calling some of the US contractors that got let go last year to come back and help them with some of the projects they developed. Apparently the outsourced folks don’t have the skills. Imagine that.[/quote]

The problem is they relied too much on said companies like W and the likes….And not they are paying for it……The problem is the old timers their have never seen/done management outside their nice little kingdom they managed to get lucky with..Glue on top of glue, patch on top of patch…Their entire SW process is a complete mess from what candidates I talked to from there say. And now they need to look outside to cleanup the mess. Of course, this is freaking out folks that have had a cushy “leadership” position there for the past decade, because obviously it’s a direct threat to them..This, again, is what the folks from some of the contracting firms that I bump into are saying trying to get out of the mess…..Lol….Funny thing is all said U.S. contractors that were let go and were really good….my buddy’s firm has gobbled up (and ironically are directly competing with QC)…

Who would have thought that throwing in say 50-100 contractors who don’t give a crap about maintenance into a soup kitchen and asking them to cook something without any guidance oversight on maintaining something longer than 1 production release wouldn’t work????? But hey, that’s what the MBA’s are “recommending” who conveniently forget to read the chapter on product lifecycle management…Now, said people get to payup big time by spending more dollars hiring all the heroic cleanup crews… And now if you are part of the U.S. contractor who is now part of the cleanup crew, you’d be stupid to actually document anything you do in any meaningful way that some monkey-see-monkey do contractor at half your rate would be able to pick up….Suckers…

[Coronita]

[quote=meadandale][quote=flu]Just ask QC…and their challenge to meet growth targets….Throwing 10x “outsourced contractors” in one big kitchen with turnover left and right in India isn’t sticking…LOL…[/quote]

Yeah, rumor is…they’ve been calling some of the US contractors that got let go last year to come back and help them with some of the projects they developed. Apparently the outsourced folks don’t have the skills. Imagine that.[/quote]

The problem is they relied too much on said companies like W and the likes….And not they are paying for it……The problem is the old timers their have never seen/done management outside their nice little kingdom they managed to get lucky with..Glue on top of glue, patch on top of patch…Their entire SW process is a complete mess from what candidates I talked to from there say. And now they need to look outside to cleanup the mess. Of course, this is freaking out folks that have had a cushy “leadership” position there for the past decade, because obviously it’s a direct threat to them..This, again, is what the folks from some of the contracting firms that I bump into are saying trying to get out of the mess…..Lol….Funny thing is all said U.S. contractors that were let go and were really good….my buddy’s firm has gobbled up (and ironically are directly competing with QC)…

Who would have thought that throwing in say 50-100 contractors who don’t give a crap about maintenance into a soup kitchen and asking them to cook something without any guidance oversight on maintaining something longer than 1 production release wouldn’t work????? But hey, that’s what the MBA’s are “recommending” who conveniently forget to read the chapter on product lifecycle management…Now, said people get to payup big time by spending more dollars hiring all the heroic cleanup crews… And now if you are part of the U.S. contractor who is now part of the cleanup crew, you’d be stupid to actually document anything you do in any meaningful way that some monkey-see-monkey do contractor at half your rate would be able to pick up….Suckers…

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