OT: New grad/profession/school pay….

[Coronita]

[quote=CA renter]Having grown up in the San Fernando Valley just after the aerospace heyday, my family had a lot of friends in the aerospace industry who got absolutely slammed when everything was shut down. So many of them went from being very successful engineers on high-tech, super-secret projects to…selling Amway (not kidding) or teaching part time at the junior college, etc. for a tiny fraction of what they once made. Many of them had worked decades in the aerospace industry, and had no real options to change careers at that late stage in their lives. It was truly devastating. I guess the “engineering degree = success!” meme doesn’t really sit well with me.

[/quote]

I think there are two issues here.

1)Generalizing the cyclical nature of Aerospace engineering with engineering in general. Aerospace for one thing depends significantly on government spending. Yes, it’s for profit, but it depends on government budgets. The big aerospace exodus (which my parents both survived) happened in Southern CA dude to shrinking government budgets, NOT outsourcing

2)Regarding

[quote]

Whenever I hear about ++millions++ of Chinese and Indian kids going into engineering or related fields, I can’t help but think that is the LAST major we should be pushing our kids into. Sounds like it’s going to be a very saturated field in coming years.

[/quote]

This is where I have to disagree. I think it’s about time our kids wake up and face reality.This is global competition. It doesn’t really matter WHAT you do…You will have global competition in just about every profession, unless you want to be a government worker (and that arguably can be outsourced). Telling someone that the shouldn’t enter a profession because their is too much competition imho is a step in the wrong direction. They failed even before they tried.
I think of this, as someone once described this to me as, “learned helplessness”.

I don’t know. I think someone grad who invested 4-6 years in school in engineering in 2004/5 versus the equivalent of someone that did a bachelor in “business” would probably be looking pretty peachy right now, since the fear of outsourcing itself is doing a pretty good job creating a vacuum of good candidates domestically. Starting salaries of $80-90k for fresh grads/or folks with 1-2 years of experience isn’t exactly something to blow off these days imho. The problem I think is these millienium generation types want instant gratification, and expect to start making high six figures from day one, which sorry to say, only happens if you are the small percentage that end up on Wall Street…

[meadandale]

I’ve been reading Wendell Berry lately and this notion of the devaluation of work is something he talks about a lot.

With industrialization has come a general depreciation of work. As the price of work has gone up, the value of it has gone down, until it is now so depressed that people simply do not want to do it anymore. We can say without exaggeration that the present national ambition of the United States is unemployment.

Mike Rowe (Dirty Jobs) has also put up a website that rails against the war against work and has some very good content. He writes:

Doesn’t it seem strange that we can have a shortage of skilled labor, a crumbling infrastructure, and rising unemployment? How did we get into this fix? Are we lazy? Our society has slowly redefined what it means to have a “good job.” The portrayals in Hollywood and the messages from Madison Avenue have been unmistakable. “Work less and be happy!” For the last thirty years we’ve been celebrating a different kind of work. We’ve aspired to other opportunities. We’ve stopped making things. We’ve convinced ourselves that “good jobs” are the result of a four year degree. That’s bunk. Not all knowledge comes from college. Skill is back in demand. Steel toed boots are back in fashion. And Work Is Not The Enemy.

[meadandale]

I’ve been reading Wendell Berry lately and this notion of the devaluation of work is something he talks about a lot.

With industrialization has come a general depreciation of work. As the price of work has gone up, the value of it has gone down, until it is now so depressed that people simply do not want to do it anymore. We can say without exaggeration that the present national ambition of the United States is unemployment.

Mike Rowe (Dirty Jobs) has also put up a website that rails against the war against work and has some very good content. He writes:

Doesn’t it seem strange that we can have a shortage of skilled labor, a crumbling infrastructure, and rising unemployment? How did we get into this fix? Are we lazy? Our society has slowly redefined what it means to have a “good job.” The portrayals in Hollywood and the messages from Madison Avenue have been unmistakable. “Work less and be happy!” For the last thirty years we’ve been celebrating a different kind of work. We’ve aspired to other opportunities. We’ve stopped making things. We’ve convinced ourselves that “good jobs” are the result of a four year degree. That’s bunk. Not all knowledge comes from college. Skill is back in demand. Steel toed boots are back in fashion. And Work Is Not The Enemy.

[meadandale]

I’ve been reading Wendell Berry lately and this notion of the devaluation of work is something he talks about a lot.

With industrialization has come a general depreciation of work. As the price of work has gone up, the value of it has gone down, until it is now so depressed that people simply do not want to do it anymore. We can say without exaggeration that the present national ambition of the United States is unemployment.

Mike Rowe (Dirty Jobs) has also put up a website that rails against the war against work and has some very good content. He writes:

Doesn’t it seem strange that we can have a shortage of skilled labor, a crumbling infrastructure, and rising unemployment? How did we get into this fix? Are we lazy? Our society has slowly redefined what it means to have a “good job.” The portrayals in Hollywood and the messages from Madison Avenue have been unmistakable. “Work less and be happy!” For the last thirty years we’ve been celebrating a different kind of work. We’ve aspired to other opportunities. We’ve stopped making things. We’ve convinced ourselves that “good jobs” are the result of a four year degree. That’s bunk. Not all knowledge comes from college. Skill is back in demand. Steel toed boots are back in fashion. And Work Is Not The Enemy.

[meadandale]

I’ve been reading Wendell Berry lately and this notion of the devaluation of work is something he talks about a lot.

With industrialization has come a general depreciation of work. As the price of work has gone up, the value of it has gone down, until it is now so depressed that people simply do not want to do it anymore. We can say without exaggeration that the present national ambition of the United States is unemployment.

Mike Rowe (Dirty Jobs) has also put up a website that rails against the war against work and has some very good content. He writes:

Doesn’t it seem strange that we can have a shortage of skilled labor, a crumbling infrastructure, and rising unemployment? How did we get into this fix? Are we lazy? Our society has slowly redefined what it means to have a “good job.” The portrayals in Hollywood and the messages from Madison Avenue have been unmistakable. “Work less and be happy!” For the last thirty years we’ve been celebrating a different kind of work. We’ve aspired to other opportunities. We’ve stopped making things. We’ve convinced ourselves that “good jobs” are the result of a four year degree. That’s bunk. Not all knowledge comes from college. Skill is back in demand. Steel toed boots are back in fashion. And Work Is Not The Enemy.

[meadandale]

I’ve been reading Wendell Berry lately and this notion of the devaluation of work is something he talks about a lot.

With industrialization has come a general depreciation of work. As the price of work has gone up, the value of it has gone down, until it is now so depressed that people simply do not want to do it anymore. We can say without exaggeration that the present national ambition of the United States is unemployment.

Mike Rowe (Dirty Jobs) has also put up a website that rails against the war against work and has some very good content. He writes:

Doesn’t it seem strange that we can have a shortage of skilled labor, a crumbling infrastructure, and rising unemployment? How did we get into this fix? Are we lazy? Our society has slowly redefined what it means to have a “good job.” The portrayals in Hollywood and the messages from Madison Avenue have been unmistakable. “Work less and be happy!” For the last thirty years we’ve been celebrating a different kind of work. We’ve aspired to other opportunities. We’ve stopped making things. We’ve convinced ourselves that “good jobs” are the result of a four year degree. That’s bunk. Not all knowledge comes from college. Skill is back in demand. Steel toed boots are back in fashion. And Work Is Not The Enemy.

[meadandale]

[quote=flu]Just ask QC…and their challenge to meet growth targets….Throwing 10x “outsourced contractors” in one big kitchen with turnover left and right in India isn’t sticking…LOL…[/quote]

Yeah, rumor is…they’ve been calling some of the US contractors that got let go last year to come back and help them with some of the projects they developed. Apparently the outsourced folks don’t have the skills. Imagine that.

[meadandale]

[quote=flu]Just ask QC…and their challenge to meet growth targets….Throwing 10x “outsourced contractors” in one big kitchen with turnover left and right in India isn’t sticking…LOL…[/quote]

Yeah, rumor is…they’ve been calling some of the US contractors that got let go last year to come back and help them with some of the projects they developed. Apparently the outsourced folks don’t have the skills. Imagine that.

[meadandale]

[quote=flu]Just ask QC…and their challenge to meet growth targets….Throwing 10x “outsourced contractors” in one big kitchen with turnover left and right in India isn’t sticking…LOL…[/quote]

Yeah, rumor is…they’ve been calling some of the US contractors that got let go last year to come back and help them with some of the projects they developed. Apparently the outsourced folks don’t have the skills. Imagine that.

[meadandale]

[quote=flu]Just ask QC…and their challenge to meet growth targets….Throwing 10x “outsourced contractors” in one big kitchen with turnover left and right in India isn’t sticking…LOL…[/quote]

Yeah, rumor is…they’ve been calling some of the US contractors that got let go last year to come back and help them with some of the projects they developed. Apparently the outsourced folks don’t have the skills. Imagine that.

[meadandale]

[quote=flu]Just ask QC…and their challenge to meet growth targets….Throwing 10x “outsourced contractors” in one big kitchen with turnover left and right in India isn’t sticking…LOL…[/quote]

Yeah, rumor is…they’ve been calling some of the US contractors that got let go last year to come back and help them with some of the projects they developed. Apparently the outsourced folks don’t have the skills. Imagine that.

[Anonymous]

[quote=flu]
I don’t know. I think someone grad who invested 4-6 years in school in engineering in 2004/5 versus the equivalent of someone that did a bachelor in “business” would probably be looking pretty peachy right now, since the fear of outsourcing itself is doing a pretty good job creating a vacuum of good candidates domestically. Starting salaries of $80-90k for fresh grads/or folks with 1-2 years of experience isn’t exactly something to blow off these days imho. The problem I think is these millienium generation types want instant gratification, and expect to start making high six figures from day one, which sorry to say, only happens if you are the small percentage that end up on Wall Street…[/quote]

Interesting debate. I know I’m not recognized here so let me make a brief introduction: born and raised in the San Fernando Valley, went to college at UCI and graduated in ’05. I started reading Piggington religiously when I worked in Carlsbad in ’06, and although I moved from the area in ’08 I’ve maintained my daily ritual of visiting this site. I’m currently in North Carolina (20 miles outside of Charlotte) working in property management for an international developer of retail properties and have been working for the same employer for over 4 years now (hence the name Westbound, since I intend on moving back to Carlsbad…absolutely loved it when I was there!).

I’ve always enjoyed the discussions but never felt the urge to create an account since it was obvious the folks here have tons more experience/knowledge than me, and I didn’t believe I had much to contribute. I’ve been debating this topic regularly with friends and colleagues since I graduated from college five years ago so it feels right that this would be my first post 🙂

I ended up graduating from school with two social science degrees, Econ + Poli Sci. Although most of the upper-div econ courses I took were quantative-based (lower division being more theory), it wasn’t nearly as math-focused as any of the engineering tracks. Econ was as close to a “business” degree the UC system had when I attended (I got a minor in Management, although that was pretty much a joke), outside of Riverside and I think Berkeley, which is why I opted for it.

The way I see/saw it, the social science track is one for those that don’t really know what they want to do for the rest of their lives as a 19/20 y/o. I knew that I wanted to work in the real estate industry, but I had no clue as to the function. I had a few friends who went into engineering, and all of them had very clear career goals and were taking classes that matched them.

As to who’s better off? I honestly believe it’s a crapshoot and is highly dependent upon the individual (obvious, I know). If people are intelligent they will play to their strengths. I knew I didn’t have a passion for engineering and realized I wasn’t gifted enough in the skills required to truly excel in an engineering-related field. I decided to roll the dice with social science degrees and hoped to land with a good company, find a good mentor and figure out the best path (which came to fruition).

The majority of my friends went into law, and the overwhelming majority are struggling, to say the least. Most have over $100k in debt (some over $200k) and can’t even get paralegal work after graduating from top-20 law schools. They’re at a loss at what to do and I do feel for them, but in the end it’s all about what people are willing to sacrifice to attain their goals…a few of them do have plush salaries and are working for big firms. I have the dreaded social science degree and can easily quantify what it did for me: helped landed me an interview, and not much else. It is frustrating that what I studied at the University didn’t exactly translate into my career, but in taking a more holistic approach I believe it was well worth it. I’ve been able to work for the same industry leader for over four years and am managing a team of managers, admin staff and contractors, so I feel like I’m doing ok.

I do think there has been a disconnect between the expectation of salary/level of employment upon newly-minted undergrads and MBAs (I have friends who went this route as well), but I think the constant media surrounding the state of our economy including unemployment levels around the country have brought expectations back down to ground-level.

In the end, if I had to quantify it, I would say that it’s 80% individual characteristics (including ambition, motivation, intelligence, people skills, network, etc.) and 20% timing/luck. IMO, what the degree is in, whether it’s engineering or political science, doesn’t alter the above ratio.

[Anonymous]

[quote=flu]
I don’t know. I think someone grad who invested 4-6 years in school in engineering in 2004/5 versus the equivalent of someone that did a bachelor in “business” would probably be looking pretty peachy right now, since the fear of outsourcing itself is doing a pretty good job creating a vacuum of good candidates domestically. Starting salaries of $80-90k for fresh grads/or folks with 1-2 years of experience isn’t exactly something to blow off these days imho. The problem I think is these millienium generation types want instant gratification, and expect to start making high six figures from day one, which sorry to say, only happens if you are the small percentage that end up on Wall Street…[/quote]

Interesting debate. I know I’m not recognized here so let me make a brief introduction: born and raised in the San Fernando Valley, went to college at UCI and graduated in ’05. I started reading Piggington religiously when I worked in Carlsbad in ’06, and although I moved from the area in ’08 I’ve maintained my daily ritual of visiting this site. I’m currently in North Carolina (20 miles outside of Charlotte) working in property management for an international developer of retail properties and have been working for the same employer for over 4 years now (hence the name Westbound, since I intend on moving back to Carlsbad…absolutely loved it when I was there!).

I’ve always enjoyed the discussions but never felt the urge to create an account since it was obvious the folks here have tons more experience/knowledge than me, and I didn’t believe I had much to contribute. I’ve been debating this topic regularly with friends and colleagues since I graduated from college five years ago so it feels right that this would be my first post 🙂

I ended up graduating from school with two social science degrees, Econ + Poli Sci. Although most of the upper-div econ courses I took were quantative-based (lower division being more theory), it wasn’t nearly as math-focused as any of the engineering tracks. Econ was as close to a “business” degree the UC system had when I attended (I got a minor in Management, although that was pretty much a joke), outside of Riverside and I think Berkeley, which is why I opted for it.

The way I see/saw it, the social science track is one for those that don’t really know what they want to do for the rest of their lives as a 19/20 y/o. I knew that I wanted to work in the real estate industry, but I had no clue as to the function. I had a few friends who went into engineering, and all of them had very clear career goals and were taking classes that matched them.

As to who’s better off? I honestly believe it’s a crapshoot and is highly dependent upon the individual (obvious, I know). If people are intelligent they will play to their strengths. I knew I didn’t have a passion for engineering and realized I wasn’t gifted enough in the skills required to truly excel in an engineering-related field. I decided to roll the dice with social science degrees and hoped to land with a good company, find a good mentor and figure out the best path (which came to fruition).

The majority of my friends went into law, and the overwhelming majority are struggling, to say the least. Most have over $100k in debt (some over $200k) and can’t even get paralegal work after graduating from top-20 law schools. They’re at a loss at what to do and I do feel for them, but in the end it’s all about what people are willing to sacrifice to attain their goals…a few of them do have plush salaries and are working for big firms. I have the dreaded social science degree and can easily quantify what it did for me: helped landed me an interview, and not much else. It is frustrating that what I studied at the University didn’t exactly translate into my career, but in taking a more holistic approach I believe it was well worth it. I’ve been able to work for the same industry leader for over four years and am managing a team of managers, admin staff and contractors, so I feel like I’m doing ok.

I do think there has been a disconnect between the expectation of salary/level of employment upon newly-minted undergrads and MBAs (I have friends who went this route as well), but I think the constant media surrounding the state of our economy including unemployment levels around the country have brought expectations back down to ground-level.

In the end, if I had to quantify it, I would say that it’s 80% individual characteristics (including ambition, motivation, intelligence, people skills, network, etc.) and 20% timing/luck. IMO, what the degree is in, whether it’s engineering or political science, doesn’t alter the above ratio.

[Anonymous]

[quote=flu]
I don’t know. I think someone grad who invested 4-6 years in school in engineering in 2004/5 versus the equivalent of someone that did a bachelor in “business” would probably be looking pretty peachy right now, since the fear of outsourcing itself is doing a pretty good job creating a vacuum of good candidates domestically. Starting salaries of $80-90k for fresh grads/or folks with 1-2 years of experience isn’t exactly something to blow off these days imho. The problem I think is these millienium generation types want instant gratification, and expect to start making high six figures from day one, which sorry to say, only happens if you are the small percentage that end up on Wall Street…[/quote]

Interesting debate. I know I’m not recognized here so let me make a brief introduction: born and raised in the San Fernando Valley, went to college at UCI and graduated in ’05. I started reading Piggington religiously when I worked in Carlsbad in ’06, and although I moved from the area in ’08 I’ve maintained my daily ritual of visiting this site. I’m currently in North Carolina (20 miles outside of Charlotte) working in property management for an international developer of retail properties and have been working for the same employer for over 4 years now (hence the name Westbound, since I intend on moving back to Carlsbad…absolutely loved it when I was there!).

I’ve always enjoyed the discussions but never felt the urge to create an account since it was obvious the folks here have tons more experience/knowledge than me, and I didn’t believe I had much to contribute. I’ve been debating this topic regularly with friends and colleagues since I graduated from college five years ago so it feels right that this would be my first post 🙂

I ended up graduating from school with two social science degrees, Econ + Poli Sci. Although most of the upper-div econ courses I took were quantative-based (lower division being more theory), it wasn’t nearly as math-focused as any of the engineering tracks. Econ was as close to a “business” degree the UC system had when I attended (I got a minor in Management, although that was pretty much a joke), outside of Riverside and I think Berkeley, which is why I opted for it.

The way I see/saw it, the social science track is one for those that don’t really know what they want to do for the rest of their lives as a 19/20 y/o. I knew that I wanted to work in the real estate industry, but I had no clue as to the function. I had a few friends who went into engineering, and all of them had very clear career goals and were taking classes that matched them.

As to who’s better off? I honestly believe it’s a crapshoot and is highly dependent upon the individual (obvious, I know). If people are intelligent they will play to their strengths. I knew I didn’t have a passion for engineering and realized I wasn’t gifted enough in the skills required to truly excel in an engineering-related field. I decided to roll the dice with social science degrees and hoped to land with a good company, find a good mentor and figure out the best path (which came to fruition).

The majority of my friends went into law, and the overwhelming majority are struggling, to say the least. Most have over $100k in debt (some over $200k) and can’t even get paralegal work after graduating from top-20 law schools. They’re at a loss at what to do and I do feel for them, but in the end it’s all about what people are willing to sacrifice to attain their goals…a few of them do have plush salaries and are working for big firms. I have the dreaded social science degree and can easily quantify what it did for me: helped landed me an interview, and not much else. It is frustrating that what I studied at the University didn’t exactly translate into my career, but in taking a more holistic approach I believe it was well worth it. I’ve been able to work for the same industry leader for over four years and am managing a team of managers, admin staff and contractors, so I feel like I’m doing ok.

I do think there has been a disconnect between the expectation of salary/level of employment upon newly-minted undergrads and MBAs (I have friends who went this route as well), but I think the constant media surrounding the state of our economy including unemployment levels around the country have brought expectations back down to ground-level.

In the end, if I had to quantify it, I would say that it’s 80% individual characteristics (including ambition, motivation, intelligence, people skills, network, etc.) and 20% timing/luck. IMO, what the degree is in, whether it’s engineering or political science, doesn’t alter the above ratio.

[Anonymous]

[quote=flu]
I don’t know. I think someone grad who invested 4-6 years in school in engineering in 2004/5 versus the equivalent of someone that did a bachelor in “business” would probably be looking pretty peachy right now, since the fear of outsourcing itself is doing a pretty good job creating a vacuum of good candidates domestically. Starting salaries of $80-90k for fresh grads/or folks with 1-2 years of experience isn’t exactly something to blow off these days imho. The problem I think is these millienium generation types want instant gratification, and expect to start making high six figures from day one, which sorry to say, only happens if you are the small percentage that end up on Wall Street…[/quote]

Interesting debate. I know I’m not recognized here so let me make a brief introduction: born and raised in the San Fernando Valley, went to college at UCI and graduated in ’05. I started reading Piggington religiously when I worked in Carlsbad in ’06, and although I moved from the area in ’08 I’ve maintained my daily ritual of visiting this site. I’m currently in North Carolina (20 miles outside of Charlotte) working in property management for an international developer of retail properties and have been working for the same employer for over 4 years now (hence the name Westbound, since I intend on moving back to Carlsbad…absolutely loved it when I was there!).

I’ve always enjoyed the discussions but never felt the urge to create an account since it was obvious the folks here have tons more experience/knowledge than me, and I didn’t believe I had much to contribute. I’ve been debating this topic regularly with friends and colleagues since I graduated from college five years ago so it feels right that this would be my first post 🙂

I ended up graduating from school with two social science degrees, Econ + Poli Sci. Although most of the upper-div econ courses I took were quantative-based (lower division being more theory), it wasn’t nearly as math-focused as any of the engineering tracks. Econ was as close to a “business” degree the UC system had when I attended (I got a minor in Management, although that was pretty much a joke), outside of Riverside and I think Berkeley, which is why I opted for it.

The way I see/saw it, the social science track is one for those that don’t really know what they want to do for the rest of their lives as a 19/20 y/o. I knew that I wanted to work in the real estate industry, but I had no clue as to the function. I had a few friends who went into engineering, and all of them had very clear career goals and were taking classes that matched them.

As to who’s better off? I honestly believe it’s a crapshoot and is highly dependent upon the individual (obvious, I know). If people are intelligent they will play to their strengths. I knew I didn’t have a passion for engineering and realized I wasn’t gifted enough in the skills required to truly excel in an engineering-related field. I decided to roll the dice with social science degrees and hoped to land with a good company, find a good mentor and figure out the best path (which came to fruition).

The majority of my friends went into law, and the overwhelming majority are struggling, to say the least. Most have over $100k in debt (some over $200k) and can’t even get paralegal work after graduating from top-20 law schools. They’re at a loss at what to do and I do feel for them, but in the end it’s all about what people are willing to sacrifice to attain their goals…a few of them do have plush salaries and are working for big firms. I have the dreaded social science degree and can easily quantify what it did for me: helped landed me an interview, and not much else. It is frustrating that what I studied at the University didn’t exactly translate into my career, but in taking a more holistic approach I believe it was well worth it. I’ve been able to work for the same industry leader for over four years and am managing a team of managers, admin staff and contractors, so I feel like I’m doing ok.

I do think there has been a disconnect between the expectation of salary/level of employment upon newly-minted undergrads and MBAs (I have friends who went this route as well), but I think the constant media surrounding the state of our economy including unemployment levels around the country have brought expectations back down to ground-level.

In the end, if I had to quantify it, I would say that it’s 80% individual characteristics (including ambition, motivation, intelligence, people skills, network, etc.) and 20% timing/luck. IMO, what the degree is in, whether it’s engineering or political science, doesn’t alter the above ratio.

[Author]

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