OT: Chaos

[Allan from Fallbrook]

KIBU: Did you actually read the study you offered as evidence to support your position? I’m thinking you went out on the interwebs and simply grabbed the first academic looking thing that seemed to support your contention. A careful reading, especially in the middle going, will show the authors’ position is one of “careful reconsideration” regarding the use of HANDGUNS for protection.

You open your post with more hysteria and hyperbole about “proguns” (I’m presuming this hackneyed malapropism refers to those of us in support of the 2nd Amendment) “screaming” in our “self delusional” way. I’m guessing you’re either foreign-born (and English is your second language), or you’re not particularly well educated.

My point, which bears repeating as it is actually supported by real evidence, is that for every isolated Santa Monica-type shooting (and, yes, statistically speaking, they are isolated), there are thousands of instances where firearms (not just HANDGUNS) are used to protect life and property.

You might not like facts, data and evidence, but they are irrefutable. Trotting out a SINGLE STUDY WITH A SMALL DATA SET does not change that. Nor does continuing to use hysterical and hyperbolic language. You, in essence, are engaged in the very behavior you accuse your opponents of.

Again, educate yourself. As the saying goes, One is entitled to one’s own opinion. One is not, however, entitled to one’s own facts.

[ocrenter]

[quote=Allan from Fallbrook]KIBU: Did you actually read the study you offered as evidence to support your position? I’m thinking you went out on the interwebs and simply grabbed the first academic looking thing that seemed to support your contention. A careful reading, especially in the middle going, will show the authors’ position is one of “careful reconsideration” regarding the use of HANDGUNS for protection.

You open your post with more hysteria and hyperbole about “proguns” (I’m presuming this hackneyed malapropism refers to those of us in support of the 2nd Amendment) “screaming” in our “self delusional” way. I’m guessing you’re either foreign-born (and English is your second language), or you’re not particularly well educated.

My point, which bears repeating as it is actually supported by real evidence, is that for every isolated Santa Monica-type shooting (and, yes, statistically speaking, they are isolated), there are thousands of instances where firearms (not just HANDGUNS) are used to protect life and property.

You might not like facts, data and evidence, but they are irrefutable. Trotting out a SINGLE STUDY WITH A SMALL DATA SET does not change that. Nor does continuing to use hysterical and hyperbolic language. You, in essence, are engaged in the very behavior you accuse your opponents of.

Again, educate yourself. As the saying goes, One is entitled to one’s own opinion. One is not, however, entitled to one’s own facts.[/quote]

That was a very harsh, full frontal, personal and vicious attack.

One can only conclude that KIBU attacked something you cherish and love dearly. Akin to stealing your security blanket or your favorite teddy bear. Wait, he did, he attacked your guns and ammo. Release the hounds!!!!

[Allan from Fallbrook]

OCR: Really? We’re treated to a constant flow of nonsensical and remarkably fact-free flow of vitriol from this poster and solely focused on guns. Anyone who disagrees is accused of all sorts of negative behaviors and from someone who appears to read at a grade school level.

Repeated requests to come up with any sort of meaningful argument to support his/her position have either been ignored or met with the sort of gibberish seen above. You can call my response vicious, but I met like with like.

As to something I cherish: Yeah, I’m kinda funny about the Constitution that way. You know, having sacrificed friends for it and all.

[livinincali]

There is only one way to completely end all gun violence and that would be to establish a police state and subject everyone to random search and seizure. The Department of Homeland security would be able to show up at your house at any given time, secure you in hand cuffs, and thoroughly search your home. You and your neighbors would be encouraged to report each other for suspicious behavior to the government which would like trigger another annoying search and seizure.

Most people don’t really want to live under an arrangement where you’re subject to search and seizure whenever some government official decides it’s the right time, but without going down that road you’ll never be able to effectively stop all gun related violence. The arms race already happened and you can’t put the genie back in the box by limiting future purchases. It might make you feel good that you did “something”, but it’s impossible to prove that you did anything to prevent future incidents of gun related violence.

[FlyerInHi]

Ocrenter touched on an important point.

There is definitely a gun culture in America. People arent using guns to defend shit.
They just want their toys.

I have guns because of my peers. Wish I had bought many more guns because they are worth a lot money. But I’m pretty indifferent to the issue.

Some people feel very strongly about their toys. It’s a manly man cultural thing.

But really, who says that guns can’t be taxed and registered? We have right to property in America but if we don’t pay property taxes, the government will take our land.

Furthermore, when the framers of the constitution wrote it, the gun technology we have today did not exist. What’s the definition of a gun anyway?

There are many way to interpret the constitution.

[Allan from Fallbrook]

FIH: Except for the fact that, here in California at least, guns are taxed at the time of purchase. This is the same as purchasing a motor vehicle, wherein you pay a tax on the sale.

Also, you have to fill out a BATF Form 4473 prior to purchase. While not a registration per se, it is a document filed every time you purchase a weapon at a licensed dealer.

I’m all for universal background checks. I’m just not too keen on the gubment having a centralized registry. If the revelations about IRS misconduct, NSA snooping and the AP fiasco have shown anything, it’s that the US government isn’t all that deserving of our trust when it comes to our personal information.

[curiousmind]

[quote=Allan from Fallbrook][quote=SD Realtor]Chill out Allan… roll a couple fatties and then go operate a crane…[/quote]

SDR: I prefer Xanax. That and some nice Enya music.[/quote]

LOL!!

[CA renter]

[quote=FlyerInHi]Ocrenter touched on an important point.

There is definitely a gun culture in America. People arent using guns to defend shit.
They just want their toys.

I have guns because of my peers. Wish I had bought many more guns because they are worth a lot money. But I’m pretty indifferent to the issue.

Some people feel very strongly about their toys. It’s a manly man cultural thing.

But really, who says that guns can’t be taxed and registered? We have right to property in America but if we don’t pay property taxes, the government will take our land.

Furthermore, when the framers of the constitution wrote it, the gun technology we have today did not exist. What’s the definition of a gun anyway?

There are many way to interpret the constitution.[/quote]

Wow. Talk about a load of hysterical nonsense. I’m female (and have been a victim of violent criminals, so not a manly-man thing), and am also a staunch defender of our right to own guns. I have used guns in self-defense, but this was never reported because they were never discharged, BTW, so those statistics don’t count in the data for guns used in self-defense — and this is very common. I have NEVER considered the ownership of guns to be anything like owning “toys” or some other kind of status symbol. Your perspective about gun owners is horribly warped.

[SK in CV]

[quote=CA renter][quote=FlyerInHi]Ocrenter touched on an important point.

There is definitely a gun culture in America. People arent using guns to defend shit.
They just want their toys.

I have guns because of my peers. Wish I had bought many more guns because they are worth a lot money. But I’m pretty indifferent to the issue.

Some people feel very strongly about their toys. It’s a manly man cultural thing.

But really, who says that guns can’t be taxed and registered? We have right to property in America but if we don’t pay property taxes, the government will take our land.

Furthermore, when the framers of the constitution wrote it, the gun technology we have today did not exist. What’s the definition of a gun anyway?

There are many way to interpret the constitution.[/quote]

Wow. Talk about a load of hysterical nonsense. I’m female (and have been a victim of violent criminals, so not a manly-man thing), and am also a staunch defender of our right to own guns. I have used guns in self-defense, but this was never reported because they were never discharged, BTW, so those statistics don’t count in the data for guns used in self-defense — and this is very common. I have NEVER considered the ownership of guns to be anything like owning “toys” or some other kind of status symbol. Your perspective about gun owners is horribly warped.[/quote]

You are clearly the exception. 90% of gun owners are men. I don’t know if FlyerInHi’s description of gun owners represents a majority of gun owners, but I have little doubt that it is more representative than your own situation.

[CA renter]

According to this, 23% of women own guns, while 46% of men own guns. I’m willing to bet that the number for both is low (many won’t report it), and that the number for women is much higher in real life.

[SK in CV]

[quote=CA renter]According to this, 23% of women own guns, while 46% of men own guns. I’m willing to bet that the number for both is low (many won’t report it), and that the number for women is much higher in real life.[/quote]

I didn’t find a link in your comment, but I’m pretty sure I did find the survey. And if it’s the same one, it doesn’t say that 23% of women and 46% of men own guns. It’s the percentage of men and women who live in gun ownership homes. Very different.

According to this study…

http://www.cnn.com/2012/07/31/politics/gun-ownership-declining/index.html

10% of women own guns.

[CA renter]

[quote=SK in CV][quote=CA renter]According to this, 23% of women own guns, while 46% of men own guns. I’m willing to bet that the number for both is low (many won’t report it), and that the number for women is much higher in real life.[/quote]

I didn’t find a link in your comment, but I’m pretty sure I did find the survey. And if it’s the same one, it doesn’t say that 23% of women and 46% of men own guns. It’s the percentage of men and women who live in gun ownership homes. Very different.

According to this study…

http://www.cnn.com/2012/07/31/politics/gun-ownership-declining/index.html

10% of women own guns.[/quote]

Whoops, forgot the link.

http://www.gallup.com/poll/150353/self-reported-gun-ownership-highest-1993.aspx

And this was gender of gun owner, not those who reported a gun in the house (a much higher number of women have access to guns by that measure).

[ocrenter]

[quote=Allan from Fallbrook]OCR: Really? We’re treated to a constant flow of nonsensical and remarkably fact-free flow of vitriol from this poster and solely focused on guns. Anyone who disagrees is accused of all sorts of negative behaviors and from someone who appears to read at a grade school level.

Repeated requests to come up with any sort of meaningful argument to support his/her position have either been ignored or met with the sort of gibberish seen above. You can call my response vicious, but I met like with like.

As to something I cherish: Yeah, I’m kinda funny about the Constitution that way. You know, having sacrificed friends for it and all.[/quote]

The point made was the ease in obtaining massive quantity of guns and ammo. Far beyond what is truly needed for self protection. I think you clearly saw that point as well.

Somebody posted the stat indicating reduction in gun related death and injuries, but the reason behind the reduction is a dramatic reduction in crime in general. So if crime is down, how can you argue gun ownership is for self protection? By that logic, a society with reducing crime should find gun ownership down as well.

No one is looking at removal of guns, simply better and more effective restrictions in place. I dont think that is unconstitutional.

[ocrenter]

[quote=CA renter][quote=FlyerInHi]Ocrenter touched on an important point.

There is definitely a gun culture in America. People arent using guns to defend shit.
They just want their toys.

I have guns because of my peers. Wish I had bought many more guns because they are worth a lot money. But I’m pretty indifferent to the issue.

Some people feel very strongly about their toys. It’s a manly man cultural thing.

But really, who says that guns can’t be taxed and registered? We have right to property in America but if we don’t pay property taxes, the government will take our land.

Furthermore, when the framers of the constitution wrote it, the gun technology we have today did not exist. What’s the definition of a gun anyway?

There are many way to interpret the constitution.[/quote]

Wow. Talk about a load of hysterical nonsense. I’m female (and have been a victim of violent criminals, so not a manly-man thing), and am also a staunch defender of our right to own guns. I have used guns in self-defense, but this was never reported because they were never discharged, BTW, so those statistics don’t count in the data for guns used in self-defense — and this is very common. I have NEVER considered the ownership of guns to be anything like owning “toys” or some other kind of status symbol. Your perspective about gun owners is horribly warped.[/quote]

If somebody owns a single gun with just a few rounds of ammo, locked up but in an easily accessible location in the event of an armed break-in (which is extremely rare), ok, that’s self defense. But most gun owners have multiple types of firearm, and a lot of them stockpile ammo as well. That’s what you call a toy collection. No one is trying to limit gun ownership of the self defense type. But the profit from the gun industry is coming from the toy collectors, so to protect their profit, they pull out the single woman gun owner living alone needing a gun to protect herself. Nicely played, the toy makers are happy, the toy collectors are happy, what more can you ask for?

[KIBU]

More shootings and death in Santa Monica, close to the college:

http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/two-injured-santa-monica-shooting-566213

It seems like everyday, there are plenty of the so called “isolated” deaths by guns all over the country.

[Author]

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