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no_such_reality.
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June 30, 2007 at 10:49 AM #63096June 30, 2007 at 10:49 AM #63147
capeman
ParticipantDude you forgot the nearly 8% sales tax we in California spend on nearly everything that we buy…. also on top of that the even higher tax on gasoline that also has sales tax on top of it… and don’t forget the property tax!! We are paying >50% taxes in California and we don’t get health care. Instead we send a half to one trillion bucks to rebuild a country we ALSO PAID TO BLOW UP and give them free health care. Don’t forget we also give free health care to all of those who would cross our border illegally (even those who may intend to blow us to hell). Love it!!
All I have to say about that movie is that it was very well done. It is extremely left and those who say he manipulates the facts are absolutely right. Let’s look at everything else we hear about it from the Conservative Right… all totally f-ing manipulated to the point of making Hitler’s propaganda look like a Jehovah’s Witness mailer. You have to take both sides of the story whip them together, see what makes sense and see who is to benefit more from their story being sold. I would have to say I’d support MM on that. All he gets is ticket sales and possible systemic change. Those of you who claim they won’t watch the movie based on how he manipulates facts… I would say you should lay off the TV… that is about as Right and manipulated as it gets. Come up with a better argument for why someone is wrong or at least have some legit examples of the said manipulation. You ultimately have the right to watch what you want and spend money on what you’d like. It’s a free country just don’t hide behind unproven excuses. That just makes you sound like a Rush Limbaugh groupie.
I work in Biotech/Pharma and I believe that they are greatly to blame for this as well. High priced drugs are a bane to the system and HMOs are in bed with them on the pricing and passing on as much as possible to the insured doesn’t put pressure on keeping costs down. I would bet more than the lunch money on the fact that if the Govt. was paying for all the drugs and services that you would see broad reform and pricing pressure on the Pharmas since the govt. doesn’t tend to want to pay extra for anything. The only problem is the politicians have taken two ladies (Pharma and HMOs) to bed with them and both have a lot of sugar to offer. We taxpayers try to get into the bed but the ladies have more sugar to give than we do and to be sadly honest the ladies seem to be better to look at in the morning. Until that changes people will continue to be allowed to die quietly while those of us who have healthcare feel safe and cozy with only our co-pays, deductibles and premiums being vacuumed out of our wallets… on top of 50% tax.
The fact that I live in a country where my life could be in the hand of someone with corporate profit lying in the other hand makes me a little uneasy. The fact that I live in a country where people are allowed to die because they don’t have enough nearly worthless paper in their pocket makes me sick. The fact that there is someone profiting from denying medical coverage to my countrymen and allowing them to die… tells me that if there really is a hell those people are heading down there strapped to the back of ballistic missile.
cheers,
chris
June 30, 2007 at 2:54 PM #6311934f3f3f
Participant…the rest of the world gets a free ride because of the contributions of the US economy and corporations.
Luchabee, the question raised by Micheal Moore is whether US citizens should be getting the “free ride”. He clearly thinks they aren’t. It’s also not clear that French, Cuban or other countries’ health care owe much to contributions made by the US economy. The extent to which this may be true, it could be argued that they may be better able to take advantage of advances in technology due to their health care systems.
Specifically, much of the great research and innovation in medical research comes from the US. These advances can only be funded with a true market economy.
Health care and medical advances are two different things. Whilst the US R&D is higher per capita, its “health care” ranks one of the lowest. It is the system that lags behind in relation to expenditure.
Canada, Cuba, and Mexico are not going to be on the cutting edge of medical research because there is no market incentive for such progress.
With the exception of Cuba, these countries have market economies. A national health care system does not imply the country is not market driven. The other major market economies in the world all have a universal system, which includes, Japan, Germany, UK and France. They are all considered to be better than the US model, and have their own R&D budgets and have made significant advances themselves. Many advances are cross national, with foreign researchers contributing to a pooled effort.
In many ways, it is like Europe and Canada’s free ride on military spending. They can devote a larger chunck of their tax receipts to ridiculous socialist programs because they don’t have to defends themselves. They know the US will do it for them.
It was as a result of defending themselves in wars that Europe decided to devote large chunks of tax money on health. I don’t think there is an assumption in Europe that the US will defend it. US military policy is largely dictated by self preservation, not altruism. It took a bit more than colonial ties to entice the US into WWII. But it is correct that less spent on military means more to spend on health.
The same is true for healthcare. If we decided to transfer from a market orientated system to a single payer, it would mean significantly much less inovation and R&D, which would literally means millions of people across the world would die sooner because they did not receive the latest treatments.
Not necessarily. The US spends significantly more on health than other leading economies, but Americans remain amongst the least healthy, with higher child mortality, shorter life expectancy, and higher rates of fatal ailments. I don’t think the US is giving their research away at the expense of their own citizens. If less was spent on R&D and more on health care, it could conceivably save more lives.
Besides, it is amazing what percentage of the uninsured are very young, illegal aliens, or those that are too lazy to fill out the paperwork for Medicare. Do we really want to funadamentally transform the US economy (and curtailing inovation) for this segment of the population?
It is unlikely that a universal system would fundamentally transform the US economy. Michael Moore’s film didn’t focus on the uninsured. He went to great lengths to show that many victims are the insured.
A lot of people have confused his message with some sort of unpatriotic European left wing social reform mumbo jumbo. To see it that way is bit like reading the bible upside down.
June 30, 2007 at 2:54 PM #63169Participant…the rest of the world gets a free ride because of the contributions of the US economy and corporations.
Luchabee, the question raised by Micheal Moore is whether US citizens should be getting the “free ride”. He clearly thinks they aren’t. It’s also not clear that French, Cuban or other countries’ health care owe much to contributions made by the US economy. The extent to which this may be true, it could be argued that they may be better able to take advantage of advances in technology due to their health care systems.
Specifically, much of the great research and innovation in medical research comes from the US. These advances can only be funded with a true market economy.
Health care and medical advances are two different things. Whilst the US R&D is higher per capita, its “health care” ranks one of the lowest. It is the system that lags behind in relation to expenditure.
Canada, Cuba, and Mexico are not going to be on the cutting edge of medical research because there is no market incentive for such progress.
With the exception of Cuba, these countries have market economies. A national health care system does not imply the country is not market driven. The other major market economies in the world all have a universal system, which includes, Japan, Germany, UK and France. They are all considered to be better than the US model, and have their own R&D budgets and have made significant advances themselves. Many advances are cross national, with foreign researchers contributing to a pooled effort.
In many ways, it is like Europe and Canada’s free ride on military spending. They can devote a larger chunck of their tax receipts to ridiculous socialist programs because they don’t have to defends themselves. They know the US will do it for them.
It was as a result of defending themselves in wars that Europe decided to devote large chunks of tax money on health. I don’t think there is an assumption in Europe that the US will defend it. US military policy is largely dictated by self preservation, not altruism. It took a bit more than colonial ties to entice the US into WWII. But it is correct that less spent on military means more to spend on health.
The same is true for healthcare. If we decided to transfer from a market orientated system to a single payer, it would mean significantly much less inovation and R&D, which would literally means millions of people across the world would die sooner because they did not receive the latest treatments.
Not necessarily. The US spends significantly more on health than other leading economies, but Americans remain amongst the least healthy, with higher child mortality, shorter life expectancy, and higher rates of fatal ailments. I don’t think the US is giving their research away at the expense of their own citizens. If less was spent on R&D and more on health care, it could conceivably save more lives.
Besides, it is amazing what percentage of the uninsured are very young, illegal aliens, or those that are too lazy to fill out the paperwork for Medicare. Do we really want to funadamentally transform the US economy (and curtailing inovation) for this segment of the population?
It is unlikely that a universal system would fundamentally transform the US economy. Michael Moore’s film didn’t focus on the uninsured. He went to great lengths to show that many victims are the insured.
A lot of people have confused his message with some sort of unpatriotic European left wing social reform mumbo jumbo. To see it that way is bit like reading the bible upside down.
June 30, 2007 at 7:24 PM #63098NotCranky
Participant“jg, for such a ‘newshound’, you sure get it wrong a lot. Your ‘point’ about fighting them over there was so laced with irony and fallicious logic I just don’t know where to begin.”
How about “terrorism” is the best war a long term oppressed region can wage and if we were in their shoes we would do the same thing,under the name of Jesus Christ instead of ALLAH of course. Since we have a big fancy and oh so Importantly “AMERICAN” war machine our invasions and killing including “collateral” damage are legitimate.Even if we are doing it for oil and the rights of the few to squeeze the profits off brokering that product. As long as it makes our standard of living better it is O.K. Hey history shows those people are a bunch of hot head losers anyway, lets just kill them and take everything they have.Rebuild their oil economy favorable to our little fascist global village leadership and move on. What’s not justifiable about that? If they won’t let us install a puppet goverment or make a “Kingdom” with a bought and sold king, what else are we supposed to do take a hit to our way of life? What are you a ^$%%^#^#**( COMMIE?
“If you are not one of us you are one of them(and you will be treated accordingly).” How is that for fallicious logic and opressive proganda? The jackass who mumbles that gets elected twice? Hey, don’t miss the Independence day sales on the latest and greatest gas guzzlers . Don’t waste all that “Freedom” our troops are killing and dieing for.
June 30, 2007 at 7:24 PM #63149Participant“jg, for such a ‘newshound’, you sure get it wrong a lot. Your ‘point’ about fighting them over there was so laced with irony and fallicious logic I just don’t know where to begin.”
How about “terrorism” is the best war a long term oppressed region can wage and if we were in their shoes we would do the same thing,under the name of Jesus Christ instead of ALLAH of course. Since we have a big fancy and oh so Importantly “AMERICAN” war machine our invasions and killing including “collateral” damage are legitimate.Even if we are doing it for oil and the rights of the few to squeeze the profits off brokering that product. As long as it makes our standard of living better it is O.K. Hey history shows those people are a bunch of hot head losers anyway, lets just kill them and take everything they have.Rebuild their oil economy favorable to our little fascist global village leadership and move on. What’s not justifiable about that? If they won’t let us install a puppet goverment or make a “Kingdom” with a bought and sold king, what else are we supposed to do take a hit to our way of life? What are you a ^$%%^#^#**( COMMIE?
“If you are not one of us you are one of them(and you will be treated accordingly).” How is that for fallicious logic and opressive proganda? The jackass who mumbles that gets elected twice? Hey, don’t miss the Independence day sales on the latest and greatest gas guzzlers . Don’t waste all that “Freedom” our troops are killing and dieing for.
June 30, 2007 at 8:08 PM #63146CostaMesa
Participant[quote=JG] Let’s just let them park their bomb-filled Mercedes’ anywhere and everywhere that they want in our home countries.
Pull your head out of the sand, man. We’ve got to kill those vermin over there so that we don’t have to fight them over here. [/quote]
Since the fanatical right-wing obviously can’t understand the concept of inference, I’ll spell it out more clearly although everyone knows that they’ll never stray from their talking points – even when everyone else sees how wrong they are.
Looks like JGs post quite literally shows that the ‘fight them there so we won’t have to fight them here’ strategy has clearly failed. If that strategy worked, THERE WOULD NOT BE A BOMB IN A CAR IN GREAT BRITAIN.
THE TERRORISTS THAT WERE TRAINED TO KILL BY OUR WAR IN IRAQ HAVE TAKEN THE WAR FROM IRAQ TO THE WEST AND THEY WILL BE IN THE UNITED STATES SOON.
BUSH AND THE REPUBLICAN CONGRESS/SENATE DID ALMOST NOTHING TO IMPROVE BORDER SECURITY AFTER 9/11 AND IT REMAINS A CHILD’S TASK TO GET PEOPLE ACROSS THE BORDER.
The logic error can be likened to trying to treat systemic sepsis with a topical antibiotic cream. No doctor in his right mind would ever try that unless someone had a gun to his head – forcing him to do the senseless and criminally wrong thing to do.
Cheney is obviously willing and happy to shoot his friends in the face – what could possibly stop him from pointing a gun at a general’s head and tell him to do exactly what the general knows is the wrong thing to do. The current rate of early retirement of generals from our military is historically unprecedented (wonder why?) and this is clearly because they’re tired of this crooked BS.
The ultra-right is responsible for this mess.
The solution to the problem is simple – IMPEACH CHENEY AND THEN BUSH. Then, have the next election immediately, not in Nov 2008. (Pelosi doesn’t want the job, in spite of the incessant fearmongering of the ultra-right) Get new blood into the hiteHouse and Congress. Start listening to our generals and policy advisers – there are a LOT of career folks out there with the right ideas. Get new ideas on the table – I’d suggest starting by getting our military out of a country that doesn’t want us there and use our military strength more productively to secure our airports, sea terminals, borders and coastlines.
We have to do something.
June 30, 2007 at 8:08 PM #63198Participant[quote=JG] Let’s just let them park their bomb-filled Mercedes’ anywhere and everywhere that they want in our home countries.
Pull your head out of the sand, man. We’ve got to kill those vermin over there so that we don’t have to fight them over here. [/quote]
Since the fanatical right-wing obviously can’t understand the concept of inference, I’ll spell it out more clearly although everyone knows that they’ll never stray from their talking points – even when everyone else sees how wrong they are.
Looks like JGs post quite literally shows that the ‘fight them there so we won’t have to fight them here’ strategy has clearly failed. If that strategy worked, THERE WOULD NOT BE A BOMB IN A CAR IN GREAT BRITAIN.
THE TERRORISTS THAT WERE TRAINED TO KILL BY OUR WAR IN IRAQ HAVE TAKEN THE WAR FROM IRAQ TO THE WEST AND THEY WILL BE IN THE UNITED STATES SOON.
BUSH AND THE REPUBLICAN CONGRESS/SENATE DID ALMOST NOTHING TO IMPROVE BORDER SECURITY AFTER 9/11 AND IT REMAINS A CHILD’S TASK TO GET PEOPLE ACROSS THE BORDER.
The logic error can be likened to trying to treat systemic sepsis with a topical antibiotic cream. No doctor in his right mind would ever try that unless someone had a gun to his head – forcing him to do the senseless and criminally wrong thing to do.
Cheney is obviously willing and happy to shoot his friends in the face – what could possibly stop him from pointing a gun at a general’s head and tell him to do exactly what the general knows is the wrong thing to do. The current rate of early retirement of generals from our military is historically unprecedented (wonder why?) and this is clearly because they’re tired of this crooked BS.
The ultra-right is responsible for this mess.
The solution to the problem is simple – IMPEACH CHENEY AND THEN BUSH. Then, have the next election immediately, not in Nov 2008. (Pelosi doesn’t want the job, in spite of the incessant fearmongering of the ultra-right) Get new blood into the hiteHouse and Congress. Start listening to our generals and policy advisers – there are a LOT of career folks out there with the right ideas. Get new ideas on the table – I’d suggest starting by getting our military out of a country that doesn’t want us there and use our military strength more productively to secure our airports, sea terminals, borders and coastlines.
We have to do something.
June 30, 2007 at 8:31 PM #63148CAwireman
ParticipantNo such reality hit the nail on the head and was
able to quickly post what are my general thoughts.I’ll add this – in the US we eat and drink what the media tells us. And, we aren’t strong enough in will or in self respect to overcome the marketing messages.
We are social beings and that seems to override our
ability to seek out the more sustaining and healthy habits
that would keep us out of the doctor’s office or the hospitial. We do what we were taught to do early in life
and we can’t seem to gravitate to the lifestyle that includes getting a little exercise and pushing ourselves
away from the table, etc.There have been studies done in other countries who have a
fraction of our health problems, but despite knowing exactly what we could do about it, the word fall’s upon deaf ears. But, interestingly, as countries become more affluent, they take on the bad habits of countries like the US.I haven’t seen the movie yet, but plan to rend it when it comes out. I don’t hold MM in particulary high esteem. But, I like that fact that he’s made a name in covering topics in the mass movie market that otherwise wouldn’t be.
HiggyBaby
June 30, 2007 at 8:31 PM #63200ParticipantNo such reality hit the nail on the head and was
able to quickly post what are my general thoughts.I’ll add this – in the US we eat and drink what the media tells us. And, we aren’t strong enough in will or in self respect to overcome the marketing messages.
We are social beings and that seems to override our
ability to seek out the more sustaining and healthy habits
that would keep us out of the doctor’s office or the hospitial. We do what we were taught to do early in life
and we can’t seem to gravitate to the lifestyle that includes getting a little exercise and pushing ourselves
away from the table, etc.There have been studies done in other countries who have a
fraction of our health problems, but despite knowing exactly what we could do about it, the word fall’s upon deaf ears. But, interestingly, as countries become more affluent, they take on the bad habits of countries like the US.I haven’t seen the movie yet, but plan to rend it when it comes out. I don’t hold MM in particulary high esteem. But, I like that fact that he’s made a name in covering topics in the mass movie market that otherwise wouldn’t be.
HiggyBaby
June 30, 2007 at 10:14 PM #63160SDowner
ParticipantJG,
How about watching some documentaries on History channel or better still some good books on History and current affairs. Might expand ur thinking. Everyone respects the brave souls who walk the streets of Iraq. out of respect for human life and sacrifice for a cause, comes the resentment over Iraq.June 30, 2007 at 10:14 PM #63212ParticipantJG,
How about watching some documentaries on History channel or better still some good books on History and current affairs. Might expand ur thinking. Everyone respects the brave souls who walk the streets of Iraq. out of respect for human life and sacrifice for a cause, comes the resentment over Iraq.June 30, 2007 at 11:47 PM #63164anxvariety
ParticipantPolitics are a hopeless quagmire.
June 30, 2007 at 11:47 PM #63216ParticipantPolitics are a hopeless quagmire.
July 1, 2007 at 6:37 AM #63172lostkitty
ParticipantTurned out the movie was showing semi-nearby.
Saw it yesterday, and I am still so saddened by it. Heartbroken really, that our contry has become what it has.
Everyone should see it – regardless of party affiliation. Don’t be afraid to face the ideas you hold dearly. If your ideas are solid, then you’ll leave feeling the same as when you went in the theater. Or you may see things suddenly from a different perspective… who knows. There is always room to grow and change with new information. Please see it. It is about the most basic of needs a country should provide for it’s citizens – healthcare – so the people can work.My kids have had some health issues themselves, and at the same time that my husband’s job (Delta Airlines) was deeply cutting pilot pay, they were also continually changing the health benefits and insurance companies. New cards every year from a new company… We were increasingly drowning in co-pays, medicine costs, but what is one to do when your child has pneumonia, a broken arm, a head injury? The insurance company tried their damndest to find a way to not pay that broken arm bill. Where exactly did it happen, could it have been prevented, was in on the property of someone they could go after instead? The questions we had to answer, and then answer again!!! The financial relief when he dumped that Delta job and went to a small company was tremendous just in healthcare alone.
The stories of people who worked hard their whole lives, only to be buried by healthcare debt are compelling in this movie… Good hard-working people, not the bottom-dwellers of society.
A note for jg… if you see it, which I please please please hope you do, look closely at which people have bad teeth… It is all the Americans that have the nasty teeth and fat asses! It is the Americans who are waiting at the hospitals for hours. it is the Americans who are angry and frustrated, stressed to the max. It is the Americans who are in despair over their lack of medical care.
MM interviews conservatives from other countries who while fiscally conservative, absolutely believe that healthcare is independent of the market economy … it is essential.
We now have excellent coverage. can go anywhere we like without referrals, etc. STILL, I am endlessly having to call up the insurance company because they are all f’d up. They all are… the errors in billing are a constant. They must be corrected to protect our credit, and it is many times a year that i end up on the phone setting things straight.
See it, so we can have an intelligent discussion here. Just saying “I wont see it because MM is fat” is a pathetic excuse for an apathetic citizen. I personally love America, and I want better for all of us, not just for ME.
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