McCain”s moral compass

[SDEngineer]

[quote=asianautica]
I love how you say “Welcome to life” and then want the rich to subsidize the poor because it’s not fair. I totally agree that life’s not fair, so deal with it. We all know the system and the system doesn’t prevent anyone from becoming rich, if you want to make more money either work twice as hard to get the capital or invest and save more diligently. We all can become rich. I know many immigrants who came here with nothing more than the clothes on the back and many of them became rich. They did it by extreme hard work, live extremely frugal, and study very hard. All this can be done within 15-20 years. So don’t tell me it can’t be done as a minority. Increasing taxes as you get richer just make it that much harder for those who are in the upper middle class trying to break free of the middle class and have their money working for them instead of them working for their money.[/quote]

You’re missing the point. The point I’m making is not that it is not at this point possible or not possible for hard work to pay off. It certainly is.

The point I am making is that under our current system, being “fair” INEVITABLY leads to an inequitable distribution between rich and poor, making it more and more difficult for that “vertical social mobility” you point out to occur, as more money and power accumulate in the hands of the extremely well off, and less and less is paid towards those closer to the bottom. As more and more capital accumulates at the top, it becomes more difficult for those closer to the bottom to break into the top – entry barriers rise (startup fees for businesses, educational fees, etc), entry level jobs pay less and less, more mid level jobs are outsourced, and numerous other issues arise.

This has already had significant effects. In my parents generation, the US was truly the “Land of Opportunity” – at that time, the US was one of the TOP ranked countries in terms of vertical social mobility. In ONE generation it has dropped from being one of the top ranked, to being one of the bottom ranked (ahead of only the UK in the major western democracies). Why? Because fewer and fewer jobs exist (relative to population size) which allow for upward mobility, education (a key component to upward mobility) is FAR more expensive now, less and less opportunities arise for small businesses (much fewer “Main St” type businesses can operate in the era of the Big Box extreme low pay/low margin stores), etc.

And increasing taxes as you get richer is INFINITELY better than increasing taxes as you get poorer, and is still a better option than increasing taxes all around. Why? Because if those people having a hard time breaking into the very upper crust from upper middle can’t do it with a slight tax increase, then they CERTAINLY couldn’t make the jump from the middle-middle to the upper-middle class…and the poor, well, lets just forget about them entirely.

The rich subsidize the poor and the middle class because it is the TRANSFER of wealth from the poor and the middle class to the rich which leads to the rich being rich IN THE FIRST PLACE.

[an]

[quote=SDEngineer]
The point I am making is that under our current system, being “fair” INEVITABLY leads to an inequitable distribution between rich and poor, making it more and more difficult for that “vertical social mobility” you point out to occur, as more money and power accumulate in the hands of the extremely well off, and less and less is paid towards those closer to the bottom. As more and more capital accumulates at the top, it becomes more difficult for those closer to the bottom to break into the top – entry barriers rise (startup fees for businesses, educational fees, etc), entry level jobs pay less and less, more mid level jobs are outsourced, and numerous other issues arise.

This has already had significant effects. In my parents generation, the US was truly the “Land of Opportunity” – at that time, the US was one of the TOP ranked countries in terms of vertical social mobility. In ONE generation it has dropped from being one of the top ranked, to being one of the bottom ranked (ahead of only the UK in the major western democracies). Why? Because fewer and fewer jobs exist (relative to population size) which allow for upward mobility, education (a key component to upward mobility) is FAR more expensive now, less and less opportunities arise for small businesses (much fewer “Main St” type businesses can operate in the era of the Big Box extreme low pay/low margin stores), etc.
[/quote]
Do you have proof of this limited vertical mobility you’re claiming to exist? Some how, I just don’t see it. We still have much lower unemployment rate than France, which are much more socialistic than we are. I see plenty of smart people doing start-ups and making it big or just move up the corporate rank because they’re very smart and know how to play politics. I also know people who work extremely hard and be very frugal and doing very well for themselves even though they work in what you’d call middle class jobs. Once you accumulate enough capital, the stock market is wide open for everyone. You can make it big in options if you’re good, or put your $ in mutual funds and let the index work for you. I just don’t believe the theory that it’s that much harder today vs 20 years ago. You also forgot that the amount of people who make millions now is much larger than 20 years ago. So to me, it seems like the smart and hard working will always find way to get rich.

Knowing the rule of the game and use it to your advantage is how you succeed in this country. Bitching, whining, and asking for handouts will not get your very far. If you change the game, guess what, the smart and nimble will just adapt to the new rules.

Also, last I check, increasing tax on the business owners will not decrease their profit, they’ll just squeeze their employees.

[an]

[quote=SDEngineer]
The point I am making is that under our current system, being “fair” INEVITABLY leads to an inequitable distribution between rich and poor, making it more and more difficult for that “vertical social mobility” you point out to occur, as more money and power accumulate in the hands of the extremely well off, and less and less is paid towards those closer to the bottom. As more and more capital accumulates at the top, it becomes more difficult for those closer to the bottom to break into the top – entry barriers rise (startup fees for businesses, educational fees, etc), entry level jobs pay less and less, more mid level jobs are outsourced, and numerous other issues arise.

This has already had significant effects. In my parents generation, the US was truly the “Land of Opportunity” – at that time, the US was one of the TOP ranked countries in terms of vertical social mobility. In ONE generation it has dropped from being one of the top ranked, to being one of the bottom ranked (ahead of only the UK in the major western democracies). Why? Because fewer and fewer jobs exist (relative to population size) which allow for upward mobility, education (a key component to upward mobility) is FAR more expensive now, less and less opportunities arise for small businesses (much fewer “Main St” type businesses can operate in the era of the Big Box extreme low pay/low margin stores), etc.
[/quote]
Do you have proof of this limited vertical mobility you’re claiming to exist? Some how, I just don’t see it. We still have much lower unemployment rate than France, which are much more socialistic than we are. I see plenty of smart people doing start-ups and making it big or just move up the corporate rank because they’re very smart and know how to play politics. I also know people who work extremely hard and be very frugal and doing very well for themselves even though they work in what you’d call middle class jobs. Once you accumulate enough capital, the stock market is wide open for everyone. You can make it big in options if you’re good, or put your $ in mutual funds and let the index work for you. I just don’t believe the theory that it’s that much harder today vs 20 years ago. You also forgot that the amount of people who make millions now is much larger than 20 years ago. So to me, it seems like the smart and hard working will always find way to get rich.

Knowing the rule of the game and use it to your advantage is how you succeed in this country. Bitching, whining, and asking for handouts will not get your very far. If you change the game, guess what, the smart and nimble will just adapt to the new rules.

Also, last I check, increasing tax on the business owners will not decrease their profit, they’ll just squeeze their employees.

[an]

[quote=SDEngineer]
The point I am making is that under our current system, being “fair” INEVITABLY leads to an inequitable distribution between rich and poor, making it more and more difficult for that “vertical social mobility” you point out to occur, as more money and power accumulate in the hands of the extremely well off, and less and less is paid towards those closer to the bottom. As more and more capital accumulates at the top, it becomes more difficult for those closer to the bottom to break into the top – entry barriers rise (startup fees for businesses, educational fees, etc), entry level jobs pay less and less, more mid level jobs are outsourced, and numerous other issues arise.

This has already had significant effects. In my parents generation, the US was truly the “Land of Opportunity” – at that time, the US was one of the TOP ranked countries in terms of vertical social mobility. In ONE generation it has dropped from being one of the top ranked, to being one of the bottom ranked (ahead of only the UK in the major western democracies). Why? Because fewer and fewer jobs exist (relative to population size) which allow for upward mobility, education (a key component to upward mobility) is FAR more expensive now, less and less opportunities arise for small businesses (much fewer “Main St” type businesses can operate in the era of the Big Box extreme low pay/low margin stores), etc.
[/quote]
Do you have proof of this limited vertical mobility you’re claiming to exist? Some how, I just don’t see it. We still have much lower unemployment rate than France, which are much more socialistic than we are. I see plenty of smart people doing start-ups and making it big or just move up the corporate rank because they’re very smart and know how to play politics. I also know people who work extremely hard and be very frugal and doing very well for themselves even though they work in what you’d call middle class jobs. Once you accumulate enough capital, the stock market is wide open for everyone. You can make it big in options if you’re good, or put your $ in mutual funds and let the index work for you. I just don’t believe the theory that it’s that much harder today vs 20 years ago. You also forgot that the amount of people who make millions now is much larger than 20 years ago. So to me, it seems like the smart and hard working will always find way to get rich.

Knowing the rule of the game and use it to your advantage is how you succeed in this country. Bitching, whining, and asking for handouts will not get your very far. If you change the game, guess what, the smart and nimble will just adapt to the new rules.

Also, last I check, increasing tax on the business owners will not decrease their profit, they’ll just squeeze their employees.

[an]

[quote=SDEngineer]
The point I am making is that under our current system, being “fair” INEVITABLY leads to an inequitable distribution between rich and poor, making it more and more difficult for that “vertical social mobility” you point out to occur, as more money and power accumulate in the hands of the extremely well off, and less and less is paid towards those closer to the bottom. As more and more capital accumulates at the top, it becomes more difficult for those closer to the bottom to break into the top – entry barriers rise (startup fees for businesses, educational fees, etc), entry level jobs pay less and less, more mid level jobs are outsourced, and numerous other issues arise.

This has already had significant effects. In my parents generation, the US was truly the “Land of Opportunity” – at that time, the US was one of the TOP ranked countries in terms of vertical social mobility. In ONE generation it has dropped from being one of the top ranked, to being one of the bottom ranked (ahead of only the UK in the major western democracies). Why? Because fewer and fewer jobs exist (relative to population size) which allow for upward mobility, education (a key component to upward mobility) is FAR more expensive now, less and less opportunities arise for small businesses (much fewer “Main St” type businesses can operate in the era of the Big Box extreme low pay/low margin stores), etc.
[/quote]
Do you have proof of this limited vertical mobility you’re claiming to exist? Some how, I just don’t see it. We still have much lower unemployment rate than France, which are much more socialistic than we are. I see plenty of smart people doing start-ups and making it big or just move up the corporate rank because they’re very smart and know how to play politics. I also know people who work extremely hard and be very frugal and doing very well for themselves even though they work in what you’d call middle class jobs. Once you accumulate enough capital, the stock market is wide open for everyone. You can make it big in options if you’re good, or put your $ in mutual funds and let the index work for you. I just don’t believe the theory that it’s that much harder today vs 20 years ago. You also forgot that the amount of people who make millions now is much larger than 20 years ago. So to me, it seems like the smart and hard working will always find way to get rich.

Knowing the rule of the game and use it to your advantage is how you succeed in this country. Bitching, whining, and asking for handouts will not get your very far. If you change the game, guess what, the smart and nimble will just adapt to the new rules.

Also, last I check, increasing tax on the business owners will not decrease their profit, they’ll just squeeze their employees.

[an]

[quote=SDEngineer]
The point I am making is that under our current system, being “fair” INEVITABLY leads to an inequitable distribution between rich and poor, making it more and more difficult for that “vertical social mobility” you point out to occur, as more money and power accumulate in the hands of the extremely well off, and less and less is paid towards those closer to the bottom. As more and more capital accumulates at the top, it becomes more difficult for those closer to the bottom to break into the top – entry barriers rise (startup fees for businesses, educational fees, etc), entry level jobs pay less and less, more mid level jobs are outsourced, and numerous other issues arise.

This has already had significant effects. In my parents generation, the US was truly the “Land of Opportunity” – at that time, the US was one of the TOP ranked countries in terms of vertical social mobility. In ONE generation it has dropped from being one of the top ranked, to being one of the bottom ranked (ahead of only the UK in the major western democracies). Why? Because fewer and fewer jobs exist (relative to population size) which allow for upward mobility, education (a key component to upward mobility) is FAR more expensive now, less and less opportunities arise for small businesses (much fewer “Main St” type businesses can operate in the era of the Big Box extreme low pay/low margin stores), etc.
[/quote]
Do you have proof of this limited vertical mobility you’re claiming to exist? Some how, I just don’t see it. We still have much lower unemployment rate than France, which are much more socialistic than we are. I see plenty of smart people doing start-ups and making it big or just move up the corporate rank because they’re very smart and know how to play politics. I also know people who work extremely hard and be very frugal and doing very well for themselves even though they work in what you’d call middle class jobs. Once you accumulate enough capital, the stock market is wide open for everyone. You can make it big in options if you’re good, or put your $ in mutual funds and let the index work for you. I just don’t believe the theory that it’s that much harder today vs 20 years ago. You also forgot that the amount of people who make millions now is much larger than 20 years ago. So to me, it seems like the smart and hard working will always find way to get rich.

Knowing the rule of the game and use it to your advantage is how you succeed in this country. Bitching, whining, and asking for handouts will not get your very far. If you change the game, guess what, the smart and nimble will just adapt to the new rules.

Also, last I check, increasing tax on the business owners will not decrease their profit, they’ll just squeeze their employees.

[SDEngineer]

[quote=asianautica]
Do you have proof of this limited vertical mobility you’re claiming to exist? Some how, I just don’t see it. We still have much lower unemployment rate than France, which are much more socialistic than we are. I see plenty of smart people doing start-ups and making it big or just move up the corporate rank because they’re very smart and know how to play politics. I also know people who work extremely hard and be very frugal and doing very well for themselves even though they work in what you’d call middle class jobs. Once you accumulate enough capital, the stock market is wide open for everyone. You can make it big in options if you’re good, or put your $ in mutual funds and let the index work for you. I just don’t believe the theory that it’s that much harder today vs 20 years ago. You also forgot that the amount of people who make millions now is much larger than 20 years ago. So to me, it seems like the smart and hard working will always find way to get rich.

Knowing the rule of the game and use it to your advantage is how you succeed in this country. Bitching, whining, and asking for handouts will not get your very far. If you change the game, guess what, the smart and nimble will just adapt to the new rules.

Also, last I check, increasing tax on the business owners will not decrease their profit, they’ll just squeeze their employees.[/quote]

Yes, I do have proof.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_mobility

Economic mobility between income quintiles has dropped in the US versus other industrialized countries.

And yes, of course their is still some mobility – but how many TODAY do you know who really bootstrapped themselves all the way up? I know VERY few. Yeah, if you were born into a nice upper-middle class family and could afford to go to top (or near top) schools you could do it, but how many people do you REALLY know who grew up in, for example, a southern ghetto who’ve been able to make anything for themselves RECENTLY?

As a side note, one reason why we have “low” unemployment is the WAY we calculate unemployment. Essentially, if you’re unemployed more than 6 months (the limit for federal unemployment), you’re no longer counted. Ditto if you’re just out of school and can’t get a job. In Europe, they count both cases.

Incidentally, I don’t see the poor and middle class usually “bitching, whining, and asking for handouts.” You know who I DO see doing those things? Corporations and the very wealthy.

[SDEngineer]

[quote=asianautica]
Do you have proof of this limited vertical mobility you’re claiming to exist? Some how, I just don’t see it. We still have much lower unemployment rate than France, which are much more socialistic than we are. I see plenty of smart people doing start-ups and making it big or just move up the corporate rank because they’re very smart and know how to play politics. I also know people who work extremely hard and be very frugal and doing very well for themselves even though they work in what you’d call middle class jobs. Once you accumulate enough capital, the stock market is wide open for everyone. You can make it big in options if you’re good, or put your $ in mutual funds and let the index work for you. I just don’t believe the theory that it’s that much harder today vs 20 years ago. You also forgot that the amount of people who make millions now is much larger than 20 years ago. So to me, it seems like the smart and hard working will always find way to get rich.

Knowing the rule of the game and use it to your advantage is how you succeed in this country. Bitching, whining, and asking for handouts will not get your very far. If you change the game, guess what, the smart and nimble will just adapt to the new rules.

Also, last I check, increasing tax on the business owners will not decrease their profit, they’ll just squeeze their employees.[/quote]

Yes, I do have proof.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_mobility

Economic mobility between income quintiles has dropped in the US versus other industrialized countries.

And yes, of course their is still some mobility – but how many TODAY do you know who really bootstrapped themselves all the way up? I know VERY few. Yeah, if you were born into a nice upper-middle class family and could afford to go to top (or near top) schools you could do it, but how many people do you REALLY know who grew up in, for example, a southern ghetto who’ve been able to make anything for themselves RECENTLY?

As a side note, one reason why we have “low” unemployment is the WAY we calculate unemployment. Essentially, if you’re unemployed more than 6 months (the limit for federal unemployment), you’re no longer counted. Ditto if you’re just out of school and can’t get a job. In Europe, they count both cases.

Incidentally, I don’t see the poor and middle class usually “bitching, whining, and asking for handouts.” You know who I DO see doing those things? Corporations and the very wealthy.

[SDEngineer]

[quote=asianautica]
Do you have proof of this limited vertical mobility you’re claiming to exist? Some how, I just don’t see it. We still have much lower unemployment rate than France, which are much more socialistic than we are. I see plenty of smart people doing start-ups and making it big or just move up the corporate rank because they’re very smart and know how to play politics. I also know people who work extremely hard and be very frugal and doing very well for themselves even though they work in what you’d call middle class jobs. Once you accumulate enough capital, the stock market is wide open for everyone. You can make it big in options if you’re good, or put your $ in mutual funds and let the index work for you. I just don’t believe the theory that it’s that much harder today vs 20 years ago. You also forgot that the amount of people who make millions now is much larger than 20 years ago. So to me, it seems like the smart and hard working will always find way to get rich.

Knowing the rule of the game and use it to your advantage is how you succeed in this country. Bitching, whining, and asking for handouts will not get your very far. If you change the game, guess what, the smart and nimble will just adapt to the new rules.

Also, last I check, increasing tax on the business owners will not decrease their profit, they’ll just squeeze their employees.[/quote]

Yes, I do have proof.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_mobility

Economic mobility between income quintiles has dropped in the US versus other industrialized countries.

And yes, of course their is still some mobility – but how many TODAY do you know who really bootstrapped themselves all the way up? I know VERY few. Yeah, if you were born into a nice upper-middle class family and could afford to go to top (or near top) schools you could do it, but how many people do you REALLY know who grew up in, for example, a southern ghetto who’ve been able to make anything for themselves RECENTLY?

As a side note, one reason why we have “low” unemployment is the WAY we calculate unemployment. Essentially, if you’re unemployed more than 6 months (the limit for federal unemployment), you’re no longer counted. Ditto if you’re just out of school and can’t get a job. In Europe, they count both cases.

Incidentally, I don’t see the poor and middle class usually “bitching, whining, and asking for handouts.” You know who I DO see doing those things? Corporations and the very wealthy.

[SDEngineer]

[quote=asianautica]
Do you have proof of this limited vertical mobility you’re claiming to exist? Some how, I just don’t see it. We still have much lower unemployment rate than France, which are much more socialistic than we are. I see plenty of smart people doing start-ups and making it big or just move up the corporate rank because they’re very smart and know how to play politics. I also know people who work extremely hard and be very frugal and doing very well for themselves even though they work in what you’d call middle class jobs. Once you accumulate enough capital, the stock market is wide open for everyone. You can make it big in options if you’re good, or put your $ in mutual funds and let the index work for you. I just don’t believe the theory that it’s that much harder today vs 20 years ago. You also forgot that the amount of people who make millions now is much larger than 20 years ago. So to me, it seems like the smart and hard working will always find way to get rich.

Knowing the rule of the game and use it to your advantage is how you succeed in this country. Bitching, whining, and asking for handouts will not get your very far. If you change the game, guess what, the smart and nimble will just adapt to the new rules.

Also, last I check, increasing tax on the business owners will not decrease their profit, they’ll just squeeze their employees.[/quote]

Yes, I do have proof.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_mobility

Economic mobility between income quintiles has dropped in the US versus other industrialized countries.

And yes, of course their is still some mobility – but how many TODAY do you know who really bootstrapped themselves all the way up? I know VERY few. Yeah, if you were born into a nice upper-middle class family and could afford to go to top (or near top) schools you could do it, but how many people do you REALLY know who grew up in, for example, a southern ghetto who’ve been able to make anything for themselves RECENTLY?

As a side note, one reason why we have “low” unemployment is the WAY we calculate unemployment. Essentially, if you’re unemployed more than 6 months (the limit for federal unemployment), you’re no longer counted. Ditto if you’re just out of school and can’t get a job. In Europe, they count both cases.

Incidentally, I don’t see the poor and middle class usually “bitching, whining, and asking for handouts.” You know who I DO see doing those things? Corporations and the very wealthy.

[SDEngineer]

[quote=asianautica]
Do you have proof of this limited vertical mobility you’re claiming to exist? Some how, I just don’t see it. We still have much lower unemployment rate than France, which are much more socialistic than we are. I see plenty of smart people doing start-ups and making it big or just move up the corporate rank because they’re very smart and know how to play politics. I also know people who work extremely hard and be very frugal and doing very well for themselves even though they work in what you’d call middle class jobs. Once you accumulate enough capital, the stock market is wide open for everyone. You can make it big in options if you’re good, or put your $ in mutual funds and let the index work for you. I just don’t believe the theory that it’s that much harder today vs 20 years ago. You also forgot that the amount of people who make millions now is much larger than 20 years ago. So to me, it seems like the smart and hard working will always find way to get rich.

Knowing the rule of the game and use it to your advantage is how you succeed in this country. Bitching, whining, and asking for handouts will not get your very far. If you change the game, guess what, the smart and nimble will just adapt to the new rules.

Also, last I check, increasing tax on the business owners will not decrease their profit, they’ll just squeeze their employees.[/quote]

Yes, I do have proof.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_mobility

Economic mobility between income quintiles has dropped in the US versus other industrialized countries.

And yes, of course their is still some mobility – but how many TODAY do you know who really bootstrapped themselves all the way up? I know VERY few. Yeah, if you were born into a nice upper-middle class family and could afford to go to top (or near top) schools you could do it, but how many people do you REALLY know who grew up in, for example, a southern ghetto who’ve been able to make anything for themselves RECENTLY?

As a side note, one reason why we have “low” unemployment is the WAY we calculate unemployment. Essentially, if you’re unemployed more than 6 months (the limit for federal unemployment), you’re no longer counted. Ditto if you’re just out of school and can’t get a job. In Europe, they count both cases.

Incidentally, I don’t see the poor and middle class usually “bitching, whining, and asking for handouts.” You know who I DO see doing those things? Corporations and the very wealthy.

[an]

[quote=SDEngineer]
Incidentally, I don’t see the poor and middle class usually “bitching, whining, and asking for handouts.” You know who I DO see doing those things? Corporations and the very wealthy.[/quote]
It’s funny how you say this, although it’s always the poor that say it’s not fair. The very wealthy and corporation know how to play the system, so although they might bitch and whine out loud, they’re actually doing something about what they’re complaining.

[quote=SDEngineer]
And yes, of course their is still some mobility – but how many TODAY do you know who really bootstrapped themselves all the way up? I know VERY few. Yeah, if you were born into a nice upper-middle class family and could afford to go to top (or near top) schools you could do it, but how many people do you REALLY know who grew up in, for example, a southern ghetto who’ve been able to make anything for themselves RECENTLY?[/quote]
What do you mean by today? I know some that did it and they start from nothing ~20-25 years ago. If you’re talking about 5-10 years ago, well, I know some who are working to get there but we need time. Education is the key. It could either be book education (college) or financial education (entrepreneur). Those who figured out that education is the key will do well. Others will just bitch and whine till they’re blue.

Obviously we both believe in what we’re saying, so there’s no point in going further. Lets just agree to disagree.

[an]

[quote=SDEngineer]
Incidentally, I don’t see the poor and middle class usually “bitching, whining, and asking for handouts.” You know who I DO see doing those things? Corporations and the very wealthy.[/quote]
It’s funny how you say this, although it’s always the poor that say it’s not fair. The very wealthy and corporation know how to play the system, so although they might bitch and whine out loud, they’re actually doing something about what they’re complaining.

[quote=SDEngineer]
And yes, of course their is still some mobility – but how many TODAY do you know who really bootstrapped themselves all the way up? I know VERY few. Yeah, if you were born into a nice upper-middle class family and could afford to go to top (or near top) schools you could do it, but how many people do you REALLY know who grew up in, for example, a southern ghetto who’ve been able to make anything for themselves RECENTLY?[/quote]
What do you mean by today? I know some that did it and they start from nothing ~20-25 years ago. If you’re talking about 5-10 years ago, well, I know some who are working to get there but we need time. Education is the key. It could either be book education (college) or financial education (entrepreneur). Those who figured out that education is the key will do well. Others will just bitch and whine till they’re blue.

Obviously we both believe in what we’re saying, so there’s no point in going further. Lets just agree to disagree.

[an]

[quote=SDEngineer]
Incidentally, I don’t see the poor and middle class usually “bitching, whining, and asking for handouts.” You know who I DO see doing those things? Corporations and the very wealthy.[/quote]
It’s funny how you say this, although it’s always the poor that say it’s not fair. The very wealthy and corporation know how to play the system, so although they might bitch and whine out loud, they’re actually doing something about what they’re complaining.

[quote=SDEngineer]
And yes, of course their is still some mobility – but how many TODAY do you know who really bootstrapped themselves all the way up? I know VERY few. Yeah, if you were born into a nice upper-middle class family and could afford to go to top (or near top) schools you could do it, but how many people do you REALLY know who grew up in, for example, a southern ghetto who’ve been able to make anything for themselves RECENTLY?[/quote]
What do you mean by today? I know some that did it and they start from nothing ~20-25 years ago. If you’re talking about 5-10 years ago, well, I know some who are working to get there but we need time. Education is the key. It could either be book education (college) or financial education (entrepreneur). Those who figured out that education is the key will do well. Others will just bitch and whine till they’re blue.

Obviously we both believe in what we’re saying, so there’s no point in going further. Lets just agree to disagree.

[an]

[quote=SDEngineer]
Incidentally, I don’t see the poor and middle class usually “bitching, whining, and asking for handouts.” You know who I DO see doing those things? Corporations and the very wealthy.[/quote]
It’s funny how you say this, although it’s always the poor that say it’s not fair. The very wealthy and corporation know how to play the system, so although they might bitch and whine out loud, they’re actually doing something about what they’re complaining.

[quote=SDEngineer]
And yes, of course their is still some mobility – but how many TODAY do you know who really bootstrapped themselves all the way up? I know VERY few. Yeah, if you were born into a nice upper-middle class family and could afford to go to top (or near top) schools you could do it, but how many people do you REALLY know who grew up in, for example, a southern ghetto who’ve been able to make anything for themselves RECENTLY?[/quote]
What do you mean by today? I know some that did it and they start from nothing ~20-25 years ago. If you’re talking about 5-10 years ago, well, I know some who are working to get there but we need time. Education is the key. It could either be book education (college) or financial education (entrepreneur). Those who figured out that education is the key will do well. Others will just bitch and whine till they’re blue.

Obviously we both believe in what we’re saying, so there’s no point in going further. Lets just agree to disagree.

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