Lord of the Flies

[Arraya]

http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/peteroborne/100100708/the-moral-decay-of-our-society-is-as-bad-at-the-top-as-the-bottom/

David Cameron, Ed Miliband and the entire British political class came together yesterday to denounce the rioters. They were of course right to say that the actions of these looters, arsonists and muggers were abhorrent and criminal, and that the police should be given more support.
But there was also something very phony and hypocritical about all the shock and outrage expressed in parliament. MPs spoke about the week’s dreadful events as if they were nothing to do with them.
I cannot accept that this is the case. Indeed, I believe that the criminality in our streets cannot be dissociated from the moral disintegration in the highest ranks of modern British society. The last two decades have seen a terrifying decline in standards among the British governing elite. It has become acceptable for our politicians to lie and to cheat. An almost universal culture of selfishness and greed has grown up.

[Arraya]

[quote=briansd1]

I’m with temeculaguy and pri_dk. We are better off today that in the past. This is not the end of anything.
[/quote]

Really, what metrics are you using? I hate to bust your bubble but social health has been declining for almost 5 decades in western democracies – across the board. The US has had the most dramatic decline. So, you are not even remotely close if talking about the aggregate health of society. Environmental degradation trajectories are universally abysmal as well, which will start to cause feedbacks to social health declines – if left unchecked.

[quote=briansd1]
Things will continue to change… But despite revolutions, things are more incremental than revolutionary. [/quote]

Social collapse and decay is a process, it is not some “end of the world” instantaneous event. Though, the financial system could precipitate quick cascading banking/credit failures and push it along a little faster. That is not out of the question.

Social (r)evolutions have consisted of transformational events taking place quite independently of man’s consciously attempting to bring them about. Man is very vain; he likes to feel that he is responsible for all the favorable things that happen, and he is innocent of all the unfavorable happenings. But all the larger social (r)evolutionary patterns seemingly transpire independently to any of man’s conscious planning or contriving.

Crises always spawns these things – and we are a world in converging crises.

The structural crises the world is in will force massive demographic shifts that will, in turn, force social responses. Which will also necessitate political insanity, as politicians are invalid as social problems solvers and won’t know what to do. They, no doubt, will make things worse. This process will continue until the a new social order is born or we could stay in a permanent state of disrepair. I’d say, the lion share of the decline should manifest over the next decade. Though, we are flirting with another leg down now – which is like quicksand for our societies. Massive economic declines could come lighting quick compared to past civilizations. Things just seem to happen a lot faster.

[quote=briansd1]

As always, Arraya provides food for thought but I’m not fearing collapse.[/quote]

From a broader historical perspective it’s just the flow of history. But, you don’t want to be collateral damage. You are innsolated enough for it not to effect you in the early stages.

[Arraya]

[quote=briansd1]

I’m with temeculaguy and pri_dk. We are better off today that in the past. This is not the end of anything.
[/quote]

Really, what metrics are you using? I hate to bust your bubble but social health has been declining for almost 5 decades in western democracies – across the board. The US has had the most dramatic decline. So, you are not even remotely close if talking about the aggregate health of society. Environmental degradation trajectories are universally abysmal as well, which will start to cause feedbacks to social health declines – if left unchecked.

[quote=briansd1]
Things will continue to change… But despite revolutions, things are more incremental than revolutionary. [/quote]

Social collapse and decay is a process, it is not some “end of the world” instantaneous event. Though, the financial system could precipitate quick cascading banking/credit failures and push it along a little faster. That is not out of the question.

Social (r)evolutions have consisted of transformational events taking place quite independently of man’s consciously attempting to bring them about. Man is very vain; he likes to feel that he is responsible for all the favorable things that happen, and he is innocent of all the unfavorable happenings. But all the larger social (r)evolutionary patterns seemingly transpire independently to any of man’s conscious planning or contriving.

Crises always spawns these things – and we are a world in converging crises.

The structural crises the world is in will force massive demographic shifts that will, in turn, force social responses. Which will also necessitate political insanity, as politicians are invalid as social problems solvers and won’t know what to do. They, no doubt, will make things worse. This process will continue until the a new social order is born or we could stay in a permanent state of disrepair. I’d say, the lion share of the decline should manifest over the next decade. Though, we are flirting with another leg down now – which is like quicksand for our societies. Massive economic declines could come lighting quick compared to past civilizations. Things just seem to happen a lot faster.

[quote=briansd1]

As always, Arraya provides food for thought but I’m not fearing collapse.[/quote]

From a broader historical perspective it’s just the flow of history. But, you don’t want to be collateral damage. You are innsolated enough for it not to effect you in the early stages.

[Arraya]

[quote=briansd1]

I’m with temeculaguy and pri_dk. We are better off today that in the past. This is not the end of anything.
[/quote]

Really, what metrics are you using? I hate to bust your bubble but social health has been declining for almost 5 decades in western democracies – across the board. The US has had the most dramatic decline. So, you are not even remotely close if talking about the aggregate health of society. Environmental degradation trajectories are universally abysmal as well, which will start to cause feedbacks to social health declines – if left unchecked.

[quote=briansd1]
Things will continue to change… But despite revolutions, things are more incremental than revolutionary. [/quote]

Social collapse and decay is a process, it is not some “end of the world” instantaneous event. Though, the financial system could precipitate quick cascading banking/credit failures and push it along a little faster. That is not out of the question.

Social (r)evolutions have consisted of transformational events taking place quite independently of man’s consciously attempting to bring them about. Man is very vain; he likes to feel that he is responsible for all the favorable things that happen, and he is innocent of all the unfavorable happenings. But all the larger social (r)evolutionary patterns seemingly transpire independently to any of man’s conscious planning or contriving.

Crises always spawns these things – and we are a world in converging crises.

The structural crises the world is in will force massive demographic shifts that will, in turn, force social responses. Which will also necessitate political insanity, as politicians are invalid as social problems solvers and won’t know what to do. They, no doubt, will make things worse. This process will continue until the a new social order is born or we could stay in a permanent state of disrepair. I’d say, the lion share of the decline should manifest over the next decade. Though, we are flirting with another leg down now – which is like quicksand for our societies. Massive economic declines could come lighting quick compared to past civilizations. Things just seem to happen a lot faster.

[quote=briansd1]

As always, Arraya provides food for thought but I’m not fearing collapse.[/quote]

From a broader historical perspective it’s just the flow of history. But, you don’t want to be collateral damage. You are innsolated enough for it not to effect you in the early stages.

[Arraya]

[quote=briansd1]

I’m with temeculaguy and pri_dk. We are better off today that in the past. This is not the end of anything.
[/quote]

Really, what metrics are you using? I hate to bust your bubble but social health has been declining for almost 5 decades in western democracies – across the board. The US has had the most dramatic decline. So, you are not even remotely close if talking about the aggregate health of society. Environmental degradation trajectories are universally abysmal as well, which will start to cause feedbacks to social health declines – if left unchecked.

[quote=briansd1]
Things will continue to change… But despite revolutions, things are more incremental than revolutionary. [/quote]

Social collapse and decay is a process, it is not some “end of the world” instantaneous event. Though, the financial system could precipitate quick cascading banking/credit failures and push it along a little faster. That is not out of the question.

Social (r)evolutions have consisted of transformational events taking place quite independently of man’s consciously attempting to bring them about. Man is very vain; he likes to feel that he is responsible for all the favorable things that happen, and he is innocent of all the unfavorable happenings. But all the larger social (r)evolutionary patterns seemingly transpire independently to any of man’s conscious planning or contriving.

Crises always spawns these things – and we are a world in converging crises.

The structural crises the world is in will force massive demographic shifts that will, in turn, force social responses. Which will also necessitate political insanity, as politicians are invalid as social problems solvers and won’t know what to do. They, no doubt, will make things worse. This process will continue until the a new social order is born or we could stay in a permanent state of disrepair. I’d say, the lion share of the decline should manifest over the next decade. Though, we are flirting with another leg down now – which is like quicksand for our societies. Massive economic declines could come lighting quick compared to past civilizations. Things just seem to happen a lot faster.

[quote=briansd1]

As always, Arraya provides food for thought but I’m not fearing collapse.[/quote]

From a broader historical perspective it’s just the flow of history. But, you don’t want to be collateral damage. You are innsolated enough for it not to effect you in the early stages.

[Arraya]

[quote=briansd1]

I’m with temeculaguy and pri_dk. We are better off today that in the past. This is not the end of anything.
[/quote]

Really, what metrics are you using? I hate to bust your bubble but social health has been declining for almost 5 decades in western democracies – across the board. The US has had the most dramatic decline. So, you are not even remotely close if talking about the aggregate health of society. Environmental degradation trajectories are universally abysmal as well, which will start to cause feedbacks to social health declines – if left unchecked.

[quote=briansd1]
Things will continue to change… But despite revolutions, things are more incremental than revolutionary. [/quote]

Social collapse and decay is a process, it is not some “end of the world” instantaneous event. Though, the financial system could precipitate quick cascading banking/credit failures and push it along a little faster. That is not out of the question.

Social (r)evolutions have consisted of transformational events taking place quite independently of man’s consciously attempting to bring them about. Man is very vain; he likes to feel that he is responsible for all the favorable things that happen, and he is innocent of all the unfavorable happenings. But all the larger social (r)evolutionary patterns seemingly transpire independently to any of man’s conscious planning or contriving.

Crises always spawns these things – and we are a world in converging crises.

The structural crises the world is in will force massive demographic shifts that will, in turn, force social responses. Which will also necessitate political insanity, as politicians are invalid as social problems solvers and won’t know what to do. They, no doubt, will make things worse. This process will continue until the a new social order is born or we could stay in a permanent state of disrepair. I’d say, the lion share of the decline should manifest over the next decade. Though, we are flirting with another leg down now – which is like quicksand for our societies. Massive economic declines could come lighting quick compared to past civilizations. Things just seem to happen a lot faster.

[quote=briansd1]

As always, Arraya provides food for thought but I’m not fearing collapse.[/quote]

From a broader historical perspective it’s just the flow of history. But, you don’t want to be collateral damage. You are innsolated enough for it not to effect you in the early stages.

[CAwireman]

Don’t know if any of you were in LA during the last round of riots. I lived in Long Beach at the time.

I remember those days pretty clearly. A building across the street from my condo complex was burned down.

This thread sort of brought all that back.

That was similar in that it was a backlash against police violence.

From time to time the poor will rise up to be heard. But, opportunistically, the more well off will do so too.

After the LA riots (which spread throughout the US to some degree) there was widespread looting.
Interestingly enough, trucks were sent out into the neighborhoods and they were quickly filled up by those who regretted their actions and tossed the things they had stolen onto the trucks.

Whatever is begun in anger, ends in shame. Ben Franklin.

Also, a good book to read on mass movements was written by Eric Hoffer. The True Believer. Check it out if you can find a copy (if you hadn’t read it long ago…). Some themes on mass movements and the like.

But, despite it all, I think I’m most in agreement with pri_dk. These things are newsworthy, but are rash actions, not well planned or thought out. With them cutting across socio-economic lines makes them difficult to pidgeon-hole.

Here’s to a largely riot-free future in the US…

[CAwireman]

Don’t know if any of you were in LA during the last round of riots. I lived in Long Beach at the time.

I remember those days pretty clearly. A building across the street from my condo complex was burned down.

This thread sort of brought all that back.

That was similar in that it was a backlash against police violence.

From time to time the poor will rise up to be heard. But, opportunistically, the more well off will do so too.

After the LA riots (which spread throughout the US to some degree) there was widespread looting.
Interestingly enough, trucks were sent out into the neighborhoods and they were quickly filled up by those who regretted their actions and tossed the things they had stolen onto the trucks.

Whatever is begun in anger, ends in shame. Ben Franklin.

Also, a good book to read on mass movements was written by Eric Hoffer. The True Believer. Check it out if you can find a copy (if you hadn’t read it long ago…). Some themes on mass movements and the like.

But, despite it all, I think I’m most in agreement with pri_dk. These things are newsworthy, but are rash actions, not well planned or thought out. With them cutting across socio-economic lines makes them difficult to pidgeon-hole.

Here’s to a largely riot-free future in the US…

[CAwireman]

Don’t know if any of you were in LA during the last round of riots. I lived in Long Beach at the time.

I remember those days pretty clearly. A building across the street from my condo complex was burned down.

This thread sort of brought all that back.

That was similar in that it was a backlash against police violence.

From time to time the poor will rise up to be heard. But, opportunistically, the more well off will do so too.

After the LA riots (which spread throughout the US to some degree) there was widespread looting.
Interestingly enough, trucks were sent out into the neighborhoods and they were quickly filled up by those who regretted their actions and tossed the things they had stolen onto the trucks.

Whatever is begun in anger, ends in shame. Ben Franklin.

Also, a good book to read on mass movements was written by Eric Hoffer. The True Believer. Check it out if you can find a copy (if you hadn’t read it long ago…). Some themes on mass movements and the like.

But, despite it all, I think I’m most in agreement with pri_dk. These things are newsworthy, but are rash actions, not well planned or thought out. With them cutting across socio-economic lines makes them difficult to pidgeon-hole.

Here’s to a largely riot-free future in the US…

[CAwireman]

Don’t know if any of you were in LA during the last round of riots. I lived in Long Beach at the time.

I remember those days pretty clearly. A building across the street from my condo complex was burned down.

This thread sort of brought all that back.

That was similar in that it was a backlash against police violence.

From time to time the poor will rise up to be heard. But, opportunistically, the more well off will do so too.

After the LA riots (which spread throughout the US to some degree) there was widespread looting.
Interestingly enough, trucks were sent out into the neighborhoods and they were quickly filled up by those who regretted their actions and tossed the things they had stolen onto the trucks.

Whatever is begun in anger, ends in shame. Ben Franklin.

Also, a good book to read on mass movements was written by Eric Hoffer. The True Believer. Check it out if you can find a copy (if you hadn’t read it long ago…). Some themes on mass movements and the like.

But, despite it all, I think I’m most in agreement with pri_dk. These things are newsworthy, but are rash actions, not well planned or thought out. With them cutting across socio-economic lines makes them difficult to pidgeon-hole.

Here’s to a largely riot-free future in the US…

[CAwireman]

Don’t know if any of you were in LA during the last round of riots. I lived in Long Beach at the time.

I remember those days pretty clearly. A building across the street from my condo complex was burned down.

This thread sort of brought all that back.

That was similar in that it was a backlash against police violence.

From time to time the poor will rise up to be heard. But, opportunistically, the more well off will do so too.

After the LA riots (which spread throughout the US to some degree) there was widespread looting.
Interestingly enough, trucks were sent out into the neighborhoods and they were quickly filled up by those who regretted their actions and tossed the things they had stolen onto the trucks.

Whatever is begun in anger, ends in shame. Ben Franklin.

Also, a good book to read on mass movements was written by Eric Hoffer. The True Believer. Check it out if you can find a copy (if you hadn’t read it long ago…). Some themes on mass movements and the like.

But, despite it all, I think I’m most in agreement with pri_dk. These things are newsworthy, but are rash actions, not well planned or thought out. With them cutting across socio-economic lines makes them difficult to pidgeon-hole.

Here’s to a largely riot-free future in the US…

[briansd1]

[quote=Arraya]

Really, what metrics are you using? I hate to bust your bubble but social health has been declining for almost 5 decades in western democracies – across the board. The US has had the most dramatic decline. So, you are not even remotely close if talking about the aggregate health of society. Environmental degradation trajectories are universally abysmal as well, which will start to cause feedbacks to social health declines – if left unchecked.
[/quote]

I’m not knowledgeable enough about social health. But as temeculaguy said, many things are better today.

Are you saying that social health was at its peak in 1960? Would you care to elaborate and define what social health is?

[quote=Arraya]

From a broader historical perspective it’s just the flow of history. But, you don’t want to be collateral damage. You are innsolated enough for it not to effect you in the early stages.[/quote]

Some of my elderly relatives lived through WWII. Especially for those who lived in Europe, the collateral damage was much worse.

My grandmother lived through WWI and WWII and she did just fine. The world she was born in the late 1800s was so much different from the circumstances she died in the 1980s, near 100 years later.

We don’t need to fear the flow of history. It’s psychologically and socially healthier to embrace change than to resent it.

[briansd1]

[quote=Arraya]

Really, what metrics are you using? I hate to bust your bubble but social health has been declining for almost 5 decades in western democracies – across the board. The US has had the most dramatic decline. So, you are not even remotely close if talking about the aggregate health of society. Environmental degradation trajectories are universally abysmal as well, which will start to cause feedbacks to social health declines – if left unchecked.
[/quote]

I’m not knowledgeable enough about social health. But as temeculaguy said, many things are better today.

Are you saying that social health was at its peak in 1960? Would you care to elaborate and define what social health is?

[quote=Arraya]

From a broader historical perspective it’s just the flow of history. But, you don’t want to be collateral damage. You are innsolated enough for it not to effect you in the early stages.[/quote]

Some of my elderly relatives lived through WWII. Especially for those who lived in Europe, the collateral damage was much worse.

My grandmother lived through WWI and WWII and she did just fine. The world she was born in the late 1800s was so much different from the circumstances she died in the 1980s, near 100 years later.

We don’t need to fear the flow of history. It’s psychologically and socially healthier to embrace change than to resent it.

[briansd1]

[quote=Arraya]

Really, what metrics are you using? I hate to bust your bubble but social health has been declining for almost 5 decades in western democracies – across the board. The US has had the most dramatic decline. So, you are not even remotely close if talking about the aggregate health of society. Environmental degradation trajectories are universally abysmal as well, which will start to cause feedbacks to social health declines – if left unchecked.
[/quote]

I’m not knowledgeable enough about social health. But as temeculaguy said, many things are better today.

Are you saying that social health was at its peak in 1960? Would you care to elaborate and define what social health is?

[quote=Arraya]

From a broader historical perspective it’s just the flow of history. But, you don’t want to be collateral damage. You are innsolated enough for it not to effect you in the early stages.[/quote]

Some of my elderly relatives lived through WWII. Especially for those who lived in Europe, the collateral damage was much worse.

My grandmother lived through WWI and WWII and she did just fine. The world she was born in the late 1800s was so much different from the circumstances she died in the 1980s, near 100 years later.

We don’t need to fear the flow of history. It’s psychologically and socially healthier to embrace change than to resent it.

[briansd1]

[quote=Arraya]

Really, what metrics are you using? I hate to bust your bubble but social health has been declining for almost 5 decades in western democracies – across the board. The US has had the most dramatic decline. So, you are not even remotely close if talking about the aggregate health of society. Environmental degradation trajectories are universally abysmal as well, which will start to cause feedbacks to social health declines – if left unchecked.
[/quote]

I’m not knowledgeable enough about social health. But as temeculaguy said, many things are better today.

Are you saying that social health was at its peak in 1960? Would you care to elaborate and define what social health is?

[quote=Arraya]

From a broader historical perspective it’s just the flow of history. But, you don’t want to be collateral damage. You are innsolated enough for it not to effect you in the early stages.[/quote]

Some of my elderly relatives lived through WWII. Especially for those who lived in Europe, the collateral damage was much worse.

My grandmother lived through WWI and WWII and she did just fine. The world she was born in the late 1800s was so much different from the circumstances she died in the 1980s, near 100 years later.

We don’t need to fear the flow of history. It’s psychologically and socially healthier to embrace change than to resent it.

[Author]

Posts