Lord of the Flies

[scaredyclassic]

i think things have been getting worse for cyclists over the last 40 years. more cars on the road, more angry motorists, less inclination to not speed or give a guy a break.

also, the indians/gay/slave argument is more dramatic than other groups, since they had lots of room for improvement. Jewish lawyers, not so much over the last 50 years. though things are definitely better than the first half of the 20th c., when my grandfather graduated law school.

[Arraya]

[quote=temeculaguy]Okay, so depression has increased according to some study. And was there a similar study each decade for the last few hundred years using the same criteria? That’s the problem with trying to measure something quantitatively when the measuring stick keeps changing.[/quote]

Actually, pretty much all studies not funded by industry(who happen to profit immensely from this trend). It’s turning into the most expensive illness to deal with. – but it overlaps with other stress related illness that have real physical manifestations that are not just in somebody’s head. It is changes in brain chemistry brought about by a changing environment and exacerbated by “conditioning” mass communications. It’s systemic.

[quote=temeculaguy]
I call bullshit on the whole societal decay thing again, especially the argument that because we aren’t affected, we can’t see it happening.[/quote]

You can call bullshit all you want – they did the same thing in every other society throughout history that decayed and collapsed. Actually, that is part of the process. Though, I will say, it probably is not good for troubling shooting – it’s more of a defense mechanism because you feel you are being attacked.

My favorite story about human stupidity and how it was fought is about a doctor named Ignaz Semmelweis. He discovered that childbed fever mortality rates could be reduced ten-fold if doctors would wash their hands (we would now say disinfect). This idea was fought, called unscientific by the medical community and was not adopted until decades after his death. He eventually, ended up dying in a mental institute.

The “Semmelweis effect” is a metaphor for the reflex-like rejection of new knowledge because it contradicts entrenched norms, beliefs or paradigms.

[quote=temeculaguy]
I still didn’t see anyone pick a decade so we can see it’s gone downhill since then. Nobody will, because I will pick apart that decade and bring up all of it’s flaws. We all know that society was worse last year, last decade, last century and so on, picking a date in time is walking into a buzz saw. Sure there are bits and pieces that might be better, but overall, society moves forward and gets better, if you look at the big picture and the individual experience.[/quote]

Humans are a mixed bag, they do some really stupid things and they also correct those stupid things, given the right understanding. Often times we misplace cause and effect and/or blame victims, it’s part of a cultural self-defense mechanism. A decade is not nearly long enough for a study like this. You need a generation. See; Below

[quote=temeculaguy]
Pick a group or a person, throw some labels on them and then plot their experience on a timeline, you tell me when in time their life was better if it is not today. And I’m also convinced that next year and the year after that, it will be even better. Here, I’ll do the first few for you:[/quote]

Actually, Elizabeth Warren does a great presentation about the middle class and how much worse off they are in aggregate from a generation ago on the “world turned upside down” thread. It’s pretty irrefutable. I could also make a great case how they will get kicked in the teeth even harder in the near future. Actually, I don’t think we will have to wait long to see this manifest.

[quote=temeculaguy]
Black people-Let’s see the 1700’s and 1800’s sucked pretty hard with that whole slavery thing. The early 1900’s was no picnic but did get better. Segregation went away over time, education began catching up, professional jobs (doctors,lawyers, etc.) starting showing up. They allowed them to play in the professional sports leagues about 60 years ago, they could marry out of their race eventually. Now look at today, the president is black, half of the most powerful and popular media figures are black, most people under 30 cannot even fathom what things were like in the 50’s and earlier. Is it perfect? No. Is it better every day? Yes.
[/quote]

Yes TG getting rid of slavery was good! Bravo for you good sense of right and wrong! lol. Todays problems are not so clear-cut.

[quote=temeculaguy]
American Indians-similar to the above situation but with some variations, the 1800’s were pretty crappy, with that whole genocide thing. Today many of them have some money, power and influence. Education is starting to happen and they are once again walking around proud of who they are. Has money been the doenfall of some, are some stll living in poverty? Yes. Was being rounded up, having their food supply destroyed and being slaughtered worse? Yes.
[/quote]

Yes, we are not committing genocide and mass violent dispossessions on entire peoples, which is good. I agree, something else we can chalk up in the “things humans ge right” category. We now understand things like this are inherently evil. Another move forward for collective consciousness! Horay!

Though, the Native Americans were a fascination of mine as a child. I will say the demonization methods used are still used today on certain peoples for similar reasons. We still have the tendency and people fall into the demonization trap. The demonization of the “other” is something we still have to work on as a species. It’s now used by people for power seeking and/or perceived society preserving reasons. We just killed several hundred thousand humans, in this day and age, that would have been met with more resistance if these ancient demonization methods were not employed. So I would label that a net negative from humanity not learning a lesson. That is a social failure. The good news is the collective would not accept such actions unless demonization methods were not employed.

[quote=temeculaguy]
Gays-This one is pretty easy, I doubt anyone would rather be gay and live during another decade.[/quote]

I agree, I think this that is a net positive. Horay! Another one for humans being smart and doing the right thing.

[quote=temeculaguy]
I’ll stop there, but I could detail every racial group, women of those groups and white women. Poor people never really need to worry about dying of starvation anymore.[/quote]

Agreed, some good things!

[quote=temeculaguy]
Do you really think that a black woman in 2011 who takes zoloft for depression would be happier as a slave in 1820 working in a field, or sitting int the back of a bus in 1945. You can exchange the black woman for a gay teenager or whatever you want. Just because people seek treatment for mild depression does not mean we are going to hell in a hand basket. They are merely taking care of minor issues that in previous decades during history they did not have the time or the means to seek treatment. When everything else is so shitty, you don’t notice the little things. If you had four bullet wounds to your chest, you wouldn’t care about needing some stitches for a cut on your arm. Just because more people are getting stitches now doesnt mean they are getting hurt more, it means that they don’t have bullet wounds and they can deal with the minor issues.
[/quote]

Today’s problems transcend racial, sexual orientation and genders. They are universal. We did a pretty good job at leveling the field in those respects and you know what, people were fighting the changes and ignoring the problems JUST LIKE YOU ARE DOING NOW;) – but good people still fought a moved society forward. Slave owners actually made cases how slaves were better off under them than they would be otherwise.

[quote=temeculaguy]
It’s still not perfect, but more people today feel that they matter, that they are important, that they are beautiful and they have something to offer than at any other time in history. Chasing ones dreams is no longer something reserved for the elite, reaching your goals is more possible than ever before, for everyone. There is still failure and disapointment, but there less glass cielings, less judgement and less societal pressure to be something you are not and I know that will continue. I’m not being optimistic, I’m being realistic, the evidence is everywhere if you just look.
[/quote]

People are amazing in the respect that everybody’s perceptions are different and one can pick things out of the complexity of reality and create almost ANY narrative they like. This is why science and the application of the scientific method are so important. It’s kind of our tool to weed through perceptions created by our evolutionary developed “pattern seeking” and culturally biased minds and getting a closer approximations of truth.

It’s pretty apparent our patterns of behavior, looking at a broad base of multi-disciplinary scientific studies, is trending in the direction of being unhealthy, looked at it on multiple levels. It’s also apparent, because of some inherent and worsening structural problems – that we will have massive demographic shifts, some extreme wealth concentrations and a social backlash from this things. So the good news is these unhealthy patterns of behavior will get disrupted – that bad news is our patterns of behavior will get disrupted and we are going to be pissed and just be a big ball of anger and finger pointing confusion on why this happened. My advice, is don’t get sucked into the anger.

I was a borderline fatalist that turned to an unrepentant idealist and have honed my disjointed apocalyptic rants into a finely tuned and ever evolving cultural critique. And my critiques are going to hurt because it’s going to kick us right in the cherished beliefs. I have faith in humanity, that we will be able to figure it out, and move humanities march forward towards progress. We certainly have all the knowledge and will to do so, it’s just about putting it all together. We just have some deeply held beliefs that are going to be challenged in the future, which is going to make it very hard. To put simply, we are going to have to socially change to move forward and we don’t want to change. But we will, we will go kicking a screaming into the future, just as we always have – there is no stopping it. This time around it’s going to happen a lot faster than we are used to historically. Speed of information transfer is a wonderful thing!

When one studies past societal collapses, it is not that the people disappear,though, often times, it was coupled with wars and other nasty things, but the political and economic structure completely change. I suggest this will still be a messy process, but the good in people will prevail and not lead into old patterns of very destructive behavior.

[Arraya]

[quote=temeculaguy]Okay, so depression has increased according to some study. And was there a similar study each decade for the last few hundred years using the same criteria? That’s the problem with trying to measure something quantitatively when the measuring stick keeps changing.[/quote]

Actually, pretty much all studies not funded by industry(who happen to profit immensely from this trend). It’s turning into the most expensive illness to deal with. – but it overlaps with other stress related illness that have real physical manifestations that are not just in somebody’s head. It is changes in brain chemistry brought about by a changing environment and exacerbated by “conditioning” mass communications. It’s systemic.

[quote=temeculaguy]
I call bullshit on the whole societal decay thing again, especially the argument that because we aren’t affected, we can’t see it happening.[/quote]

You can call bullshit all you want – they did the same thing in every other society throughout history that decayed and collapsed. Actually, that is part of the process. Though, I will say, it probably is not good for troubling shooting – it’s more of a defense mechanism because you feel you are being attacked.

My favorite story about human stupidity and how it was fought is about a doctor named Ignaz Semmelweis. He discovered that childbed fever mortality rates could be reduced ten-fold if doctors would wash their hands (we would now say disinfect). This idea was fought, called unscientific by the medical community and was not adopted until decades after his death. He eventually, ended up dying in a mental institute.

The “Semmelweis effect” is a metaphor for the reflex-like rejection of new knowledge because it contradicts entrenched norms, beliefs or paradigms.

[quote=temeculaguy]
I still didn’t see anyone pick a decade so we can see it’s gone downhill since then. Nobody will, because I will pick apart that decade and bring up all of it’s flaws. We all know that society was worse last year, last decade, last century and so on, picking a date in time is walking into a buzz saw. Sure there are bits and pieces that might be better, but overall, society moves forward and gets better, if you look at the big picture and the individual experience.[/quote]

Humans are a mixed bag, they do some really stupid things and they also correct those stupid things, given the right understanding. Often times we misplace cause and effect and/or blame victims, it’s part of a cultural self-defense mechanism. A decade is not nearly long enough for a study like this. You need a generation. See; Below

[quote=temeculaguy]
Pick a group or a person, throw some labels on them and then plot their experience on a timeline, you tell me when in time their life was better if it is not today. And I’m also convinced that next year and the year after that, it will be even better. Here, I’ll do the first few for you:[/quote]

Actually, Elizabeth Warren does a great presentation about the middle class and how much worse off they are in aggregate from a generation ago on the “world turned upside down” thread. It’s pretty irrefutable. I could also make a great case how they will get kicked in the teeth even harder in the near future. Actually, I don’t think we will have to wait long to see this manifest.

[quote=temeculaguy]
Black people-Let’s see the 1700’s and 1800’s sucked pretty hard with that whole slavery thing. The early 1900’s was no picnic but did get better. Segregation went away over time, education began catching up, professional jobs (doctors,lawyers, etc.) starting showing up. They allowed them to play in the professional sports leagues about 60 years ago, they could marry out of their race eventually. Now look at today, the president is black, half of the most powerful and popular media figures are black, most people under 30 cannot even fathom what things were like in the 50’s and earlier. Is it perfect? No. Is it better every day? Yes.
[/quote]

Yes TG getting rid of slavery was good! Bravo for you good sense of right and wrong! lol. Todays problems are not so clear-cut.

[quote=temeculaguy]
American Indians-similar to the above situation but with some variations, the 1800’s were pretty crappy, with that whole genocide thing. Today many of them have some money, power and influence. Education is starting to happen and they are once again walking around proud of who they are. Has money been the doenfall of some, are some stll living in poverty? Yes. Was being rounded up, having their food supply destroyed and being slaughtered worse? Yes.
[/quote]

Yes, we are not committing genocide and mass violent dispossessions on entire peoples, which is good. I agree, something else we can chalk up in the “things humans ge right” category. We now understand things like this are inherently evil. Another move forward for collective consciousness! Horay!

Though, the Native Americans were a fascination of mine as a child. I will say the demonization methods used are still used today on certain peoples for similar reasons. We still have the tendency and people fall into the demonization trap. The demonization of the “other” is something we still have to work on as a species. It’s now used by people for power seeking and/or perceived society preserving reasons. We just killed several hundred thousand humans, in this day and age, that would have been met with more resistance if these ancient demonization methods were not employed. So I would label that a net negative from humanity not learning a lesson. That is a social failure. The good news is the collective would not accept such actions unless demonization methods were not employed.

[quote=temeculaguy]
Gays-This one is pretty easy, I doubt anyone would rather be gay and live during another decade.[/quote]

I agree, I think this that is a net positive. Horay! Another one for humans being smart and doing the right thing.

[quote=temeculaguy]
I’ll stop there, but I could detail every racial group, women of those groups and white women. Poor people never really need to worry about dying of starvation anymore.[/quote]

Agreed, some good things!

[quote=temeculaguy]
Do you really think that a black woman in 2011 who takes zoloft for depression would be happier as a slave in 1820 working in a field, or sitting int the back of a bus in 1945. You can exchange the black woman for a gay teenager or whatever you want. Just because people seek treatment for mild depression does not mean we are going to hell in a hand basket. They are merely taking care of minor issues that in previous decades during history they did not have the time or the means to seek treatment. When everything else is so shitty, you don’t notice the little things. If you had four bullet wounds to your chest, you wouldn’t care about needing some stitches for a cut on your arm. Just because more people are getting stitches now doesnt mean they are getting hurt more, it means that they don’t have bullet wounds and they can deal with the minor issues.
[/quote]

Today’s problems transcend racial, sexual orientation and genders. They are universal. We did a pretty good job at leveling the field in those respects and you know what, people were fighting the changes and ignoring the problems JUST LIKE YOU ARE DOING NOW;) – but good people still fought a moved society forward. Slave owners actually made cases how slaves were better off under them than they would be otherwise.

[quote=temeculaguy]
It’s still not perfect, but more people today feel that they matter, that they are important, that they are beautiful and they have something to offer than at any other time in history. Chasing ones dreams is no longer something reserved for the elite, reaching your goals is more possible than ever before, for everyone. There is still failure and disapointment, but there less glass cielings, less judgement and less societal pressure to be something you are not and I know that will continue. I’m not being optimistic, I’m being realistic, the evidence is everywhere if you just look.
[/quote]

People are amazing in the respect that everybody’s perceptions are different and one can pick things out of the complexity of reality and create almost ANY narrative they like. This is why science and the application of the scientific method are so important. It’s kind of our tool to weed through perceptions created by our evolutionary developed “pattern seeking” and culturally biased minds and getting a closer approximations of truth.

It’s pretty apparent our patterns of behavior, looking at a broad base of multi-disciplinary scientific studies, is trending in the direction of being unhealthy, looked at it on multiple levels. It’s also apparent, because of some inherent and worsening structural problems – that we will have massive demographic shifts, some extreme wealth concentrations and a social backlash from this things. So the good news is these unhealthy patterns of behavior will get disrupted – that bad news is our patterns of behavior will get disrupted and we are going to be pissed and just be a big ball of anger and finger pointing confusion on why this happened. My advice, is don’t get sucked into the anger.

I was a borderline fatalist that turned to an unrepentant idealist and have honed my disjointed apocalyptic rants into a finely tuned and ever evolving cultural critique. And my critiques are going to hurt because it’s going to kick us right in the cherished beliefs. I have faith in humanity, that we will be able to figure it out, and move humanities march forward towards progress. We certainly have all the knowledge and will to do so, it’s just about putting it all together. We just have some deeply held beliefs that are going to be challenged in the future, which is going to make it very hard. To put simply, we are going to have to socially change to move forward and we don’t want to change. But we will, we will go kicking a screaming into the future, just as we always have – there is no stopping it. This time around it’s going to happen a lot faster than we are used to historically. Speed of information transfer is a wonderful thing!

When one studies past societal collapses, it is not that the people disappear,though, often times, it was coupled with wars and other nasty things, but the political and economic structure completely change. I suggest this will still be a messy process, but the good in people will prevail and not lead into old patterns of very destructive behavior.

[Arraya]

[quote=temeculaguy]Okay, so depression has increased according to some study. And was there a similar study each decade for the last few hundred years using the same criteria? That’s the problem with trying to measure something quantitatively when the measuring stick keeps changing.[/quote]

Actually, pretty much all studies not funded by industry(who happen to profit immensely from this trend). It’s turning into the most expensive illness to deal with. – but it overlaps with other stress related illness that have real physical manifestations that are not just in somebody’s head. It is changes in brain chemistry brought about by a changing environment and exacerbated by “conditioning” mass communications. It’s systemic.

[quote=temeculaguy]
I call bullshit on the whole societal decay thing again, especially the argument that because we aren’t affected, we can’t see it happening.[/quote]

You can call bullshit all you want – they did the same thing in every other society throughout history that decayed and collapsed. Actually, that is part of the process. Though, I will say, it probably is not good for troubling shooting – it’s more of a defense mechanism because you feel you are being attacked.

My favorite story about human stupidity and how it was fought is about a doctor named Ignaz Semmelweis. He discovered that childbed fever mortality rates could be reduced ten-fold if doctors would wash their hands (we would now say disinfect). This idea was fought, called unscientific by the medical community and was not adopted until decades after his death. He eventually, ended up dying in a mental institute.

The “Semmelweis effect” is a metaphor for the reflex-like rejection of new knowledge because it contradicts entrenched norms, beliefs or paradigms.

[quote=temeculaguy]
I still didn’t see anyone pick a decade so we can see it’s gone downhill since then. Nobody will, because I will pick apart that decade and bring up all of it’s flaws. We all know that society was worse last year, last decade, last century and so on, picking a date in time is walking into a buzz saw. Sure there are bits and pieces that might be better, but overall, society moves forward and gets better, if you look at the big picture and the individual experience.[/quote]

Humans are a mixed bag, they do some really stupid things and they also correct those stupid things, given the right understanding. Often times we misplace cause and effect and/or blame victims, it’s part of a cultural self-defense mechanism. A decade is not nearly long enough for a study like this. You need a generation. See; Below

[quote=temeculaguy]
Pick a group or a person, throw some labels on them and then plot their experience on a timeline, you tell me when in time their life was better if it is not today. And I’m also convinced that next year and the year after that, it will be even better. Here, I’ll do the first few for you:[/quote]

Actually, Elizabeth Warren does a great presentation about the middle class and how much worse off they are in aggregate from a generation ago on the “world turned upside down” thread. It’s pretty irrefutable. I could also make a great case how they will get kicked in the teeth even harder in the near future. Actually, I don’t think we will have to wait long to see this manifest.

[quote=temeculaguy]
Black people-Let’s see the 1700’s and 1800’s sucked pretty hard with that whole slavery thing. The early 1900’s was no picnic but did get better. Segregation went away over time, education began catching up, professional jobs (doctors,lawyers, etc.) starting showing up. They allowed them to play in the professional sports leagues about 60 years ago, they could marry out of their race eventually. Now look at today, the president is black, half of the most powerful and popular media figures are black, most people under 30 cannot even fathom what things were like in the 50’s and earlier. Is it perfect? No. Is it better every day? Yes.
[/quote]

Yes TG getting rid of slavery was good! Bravo for you good sense of right and wrong! lol. Todays problems are not so clear-cut.

[quote=temeculaguy]
American Indians-similar to the above situation but with some variations, the 1800’s were pretty crappy, with that whole genocide thing. Today many of them have some money, power and influence. Education is starting to happen and they are once again walking around proud of who they are. Has money been the doenfall of some, are some stll living in poverty? Yes. Was being rounded up, having their food supply destroyed and being slaughtered worse? Yes.
[/quote]

Yes, we are not committing genocide and mass violent dispossessions on entire peoples, which is good. I agree, something else we can chalk up in the “things humans ge right” category. We now understand things like this are inherently evil. Another move forward for collective consciousness! Horay!

Though, the Native Americans were a fascination of mine as a child. I will say the demonization methods used are still used today on certain peoples for similar reasons. We still have the tendency and people fall into the demonization trap. The demonization of the “other” is something we still have to work on as a species. It’s now used by people for power seeking and/or perceived society preserving reasons. We just killed several hundred thousand humans, in this day and age, that would have been met with more resistance if these ancient demonization methods were not employed. So I would label that a net negative from humanity not learning a lesson. That is a social failure. The good news is the collective would not accept such actions unless demonization methods were not employed.

[quote=temeculaguy]
Gays-This one is pretty easy, I doubt anyone would rather be gay and live during another decade.[/quote]

I agree, I think this that is a net positive. Horay! Another one for humans being smart and doing the right thing.

[quote=temeculaguy]
I’ll stop there, but I could detail every racial group, women of those groups and white women. Poor people never really need to worry about dying of starvation anymore.[/quote]

Agreed, some good things!

[quote=temeculaguy]
Do you really think that a black woman in 2011 who takes zoloft for depression would be happier as a slave in 1820 working in a field, or sitting int the back of a bus in 1945. You can exchange the black woman for a gay teenager or whatever you want. Just because people seek treatment for mild depression does not mean we are going to hell in a hand basket. They are merely taking care of minor issues that in previous decades during history they did not have the time or the means to seek treatment. When everything else is so shitty, you don’t notice the little things. If you had four bullet wounds to your chest, you wouldn’t care about needing some stitches for a cut on your arm. Just because more people are getting stitches now doesnt mean they are getting hurt more, it means that they don’t have bullet wounds and they can deal with the minor issues.
[/quote]

Today’s problems transcend racial, sexual orientation and genders. They are universal. We did a pretty good job at leveling the field in those respects and you know what, people were fighting the changes and ignoring the problems JUST LIKE YOU ARE DOING NOW;) – but good people still fought a moved society forward. Slave owners actually made cases how slaves were better off under them than they would be otherwise.

[quote=temeculaguy]
It’s still not perfect, but more people today feel that they matter, that they are important, that they are beautiful and they have something to offer than at any other time in history. Chasing ones dreams is no longer something reserved for the elite, reaching your goals is more possible than ever before, for everyone. There is still failure and disapointment, but there less glass cielings, less judgement and less societal pressure to be something you are not and I know that will continue. I’m not being optimistic, I’m being realistic, the evidence is everywhere if you just look.
[/quote]

People are amazing in the respect that everybody’s perceptions are different and one can pick things out of the complexity of reality and create almost ANY narrative they like. This is why science and the application of the scientific method are so important. It’s kind of our tool to weed through perceptions created by our evolutionary developed “pattern seeking” and culturally biased minds and getting a closer approximations of truth.

It’s pretty apparent our patterns of behavior, looking at a broad base of multi-disciplinary scientific studies, is trending in the direction of being unhealthy, looked at it on multiple levels. It’s also apparent, because of some inherent and worsening structural problems – that we will have massive demographic shifts, some extreme wealth concentrations and a social backlash from this things. So the good news is these unhealthy patterns of behavior will get disrupted – that bad news is our patterns of behavior will get disrupted and we are going to be pissed and just be a big ball of anger and finger pointing confusion on why this happened. My advice, is don’t get sucked into the anger.

I was a borderline fatalist that turned to an unrepentant idealist and have honed my disjointed apocalyptic rants into a finely tuned and ever evolving cultural critique. And my critiques are going to hurt because it’s going to kick us right in the cherished beliefs. I have faith in humanity, that we will be able to figure it out, and move humanities march forward towards progress. We certainly have all the knowledge and will to do so, it’s just about putting it all together. We just have some deeply held beliefs that are going to be challenged in the future, which is going to make it very hard. To put simply, we are going to have to socially change to move forward and we don’t want to change. But we will, we will go kicking a screaming into the future, just as we always have – there is no stopping it. This time around it’s going to happen a lot faster than we are used to historically. Speed of information transfer is a wonderful thing!

When one studies past societal collapses, it is not that the people disappear,though, often times, it was coupled with wars and other nasty things, but the political and economic structure completely change. I suggest this will still be a messy process, but the good in people will prevail and not lead into old patterns of very destructive behavior.

[Arraya]

[quote=temeculaguy]Okay, so depression has increased according to some study. And was there a similar study each decade for the last few hundred years using the same criteria? That’s the problem with trying to measure something quantitatively when the measuring stick keeps changing.[/quote]

Actually, pretty much all studies not funded by industry(who happen to profit immensely from this trend). It’s turning into the most expensive illness to deal with. – but it overlaps with other stress related illness that have real physical manifestations that are not just in somebody’s head. It is changes in brain chemistry brought about by a changing environment and exacerbated by “conditioning” mass communications. It’s systemic.

[quote=temeculaguy]
I call bullshit on the whole societal decay thing again, especially the argument that because we aren’t affected, we can’t see it happening.[/quote]

You can call bullshit all you want – they did the same thing in every other society throughout history that decayed and collapsed. Actually, that is part of the process. Though, I will say, it probably is not good for troubling shooting – it’s more of a defense mechanism because you feel you are being attacked.

My favorite story about human stupidity and how it was fought is about a doctor named Ignaz Semmelweis. He discovered that childbed fever mortality rates could be reduced ten-fold if doctors would wash their hands (we would now say disinfect). This idea was fought, called unscientific by the medical community and was not adopted until decades after his death. He eventually, ended up dying in a mental institute.

The “Semmelweis effect” is a metaphor for the reflex-like rejection of new knowledge because it contradicts entrenched norms, beliefs or paradigms.

[quote=temeculaguy]
I still didn’t see anyone pick a decade so we can see it’s gone downhill since then. Nobody will, because I will pick apart that decade and bring up all of it’s flaws. We all know that society was worse last year, last decade, last century and so on, picking a date in time is walking into a buzz saw. Sure there are bits and pieces that might be better, but overall, society moves forward and gets better, if you look at the big picture and the individual experience.[/quote]

Humans are a mixed bag, they do some really stupid things and they also correct those stupid things, given the right understanding. Often times we misplace cause and effect and/or blame victims, it’s part of a cultural self-defense mechanism. A decade is not nearly long enough for a study like this. You need a generation. See; Below

[quote=temeculaguy]
Pick a group or a person, throw some labels on them and then plot their experience on a timeline, you tell me when in time their life was better if it is not today. And I’m also convinced that next year and the year after that, it will be even better. Here, I’ll do the first few for you:[/quote]

Actually, Elizabeth Warren does a great presentation about the middle class and how much worse off they are in aggregate from a generation ago on the “world turned upside down” thread. It’s pretty irrefutable. I could also make a great case how they will get kicked in the teeth even harder in the near future. Actually, I don’t think we will have to wait long to see this manifest.

[quote=temeculaguy]
Black people-Let’s see the 1700’s and 1800’s sucked pretty hard with that whole slavery thing. The early 1900’s was no picnic but did get better. Segregation went away over time, education began catching up, professional jobs (doctors,lawyers, etc.) starting showing up. They allowed them to play in the professional sports leagues about 60 years ago, they could marry out of their race eventually. Now look at today, the president is black, half of the most powerful and popular media figures are black, most people under 30 cannot even fathom what things were like in the 50’s and earlier. Is it perfect? No. Is it better every day? Yes.
[/quote]

Yes TG getting rid of slavery was good! Bravo for you good sense of right and wrong! lol. Todays problems are not so clear-cut.

[quote=temeculaguy]
American Indians-similar to the above situation but with some variations, the 1800’s were pretty crappy, with that whole genocide thing. Today many of them have some money, power and influence. Education is starting to happen and they are once again walking around proud of who they are. Has money been the doenfall of some, are some stll living in poverty? Yes. Was being rounded up, having their food supply destroyed and being slaughtered worse? Yes.
[/quote]

Yes, we are not committing genocide and mass violent dispossessions on entire peoples, which is good. I agree, something else we can chalk up in the “things humans ge right” category. We now understand things like this are inherently evil. Another move forward for collective consciousness! Horay!

Though, the Native Americans were a fascination of mine as a child. I will say the demonization methods used are still used today on certain peoples for similar reasons. We still have the tendency and people fall into the demonization trap. The demonization of the “other” is something we still have to work on as a species. It’s now used by people for power seeking and/or perceived society preserving reasons. We just killed several hundred thousand humans, in this day and age, that would have been met with more resistance if these ancient demonization methods were not employed. So I would label that a net negative from humanity not learning a lesson. That is a social failure. The good news is the collective would not accept such actions unless demonization methods were not employed.

[quote=temeculaguy]
Gays-This one is pretty easy, I doubt anyone would rather be gay and live during another decade.[/quote]

I agree, I think this that is a net positive. Horay! Another one for humans being smart and doing the right thing.

[quote=temeculaguy]
I’ll stop there, but I could detail every racial group, women of those groups and white women. Poor people never really need to worry about dying of starvation anymore.[/quote]

Agreed, some good things!

[quote=temeculaguy]
Do you really think that a black woman in 2011 who takes zoloft for depression would be happier as a slave in 1820 working in a field, or sitting int the back of a bus in 1945. You can exchange the black woman for a gay teenager or whatever you want. Just because people seek treatment for mild depression does not mean we are going to hell in a hand basket. They are merely taking care of minor issues that in previous decades during history they did not have the time or the means to seek treatment. When everything else is so shitty, you don’t notice the little things. If you had four bullet wounds to your chest, you wouldn’t care about needing some stitches for a cut on your arm. Just because more people are getting stitches now doesnt mean they are getting hurt more, it means that they don’t have bullet wounds and they can deal with the minor issues.
[/quote]

Today’s problems transcend racial, sexual orientation and genders. They are universal. We did a pretty good job at leveling the field in those respects and you know what, people were fighting the changes and ignoring the problems JUST LIKE YOU ARE DOING NOW;) – but good people still fought a moved society forward. Slave owners actually made cases how slaves were better off under them than they would be otherwise.

[quote=temeculaguy]
It’s still not perfect, but more people today feel that they matter, that they are important, that they are beautiful and they have something to offer than at any other time in history. Chasing ones dreams is no longer something reserved for the elite, reaching your goals is more possible than ever before, for everyone. There is still failure and disapointment, but there less glass cielings, less judgement and less societal pressure to be something you are not and I know that will continue. I’m not being optimistic, I’m being realistic, the evidence is everywhere if you just look.
[/quote]

People are amazing in the respect that everybody’s perceptions are different and one can pick things out of the complexity of reality and create almost ANY narrative they like. This is why science and the application of the scientific method are so important. It’s kind of our tool to weed through perceptions created by our evolutionary developed “pattern seeking” and culturally biased minds and getting a closer approximations of truth.

It’s pretty apparent our patterns of behavior, looking at a broad base of multi-disciplinary scientific studies, is trending in the direction of being unhealthy, looked at it on multiple levels. It’s also apparent, because of some inherent and worsening structural problems – that we will have massive demographic shifts, some extreme wealth concentrations and a social backlash from this things. So the good news is these unhealthy patterns of behavior will get disrupted – that bad news is our patterns of behavior will get disrupted and we are going to be pissed and just be a big ball of anger and finger pointing confusion on why this happened. My advice, is don’t get sucked into the anger.

I was a borderline fatalist that turned to an unrepentant idealist and have honed my disjointed apocalyptic rants into a finely tuned and ever evolving cultural critique. And my critiques are going to hurt because it’s going to kick us right in the cherished beliefs. I have faith in humanity, that we will be able to figure it out, and move humanities march forward towards progress. We certainly have all the knowledge and will to do so, it’s just about putting it all together. We just have some deeply held beliefs that are going to be challenged in the future, which is going to make it very hard. To put simply, we are going to have to socially change to move forward and we don’t want to change. But we will, we will go kicking a screaming into the future, just as we always have – there is no stopping it. This time around it’s going to happen a lot faster than we are used to historically. Speed of information transfer is a wonderful thing!

When one studies past societal collapses, it is not that the people disappear,though, often times, it was coupled with wars and other nasty things, but the political and economic structure completely change. I suggest this will still be a messy process, but the good in people will prevail and not lead into old patterns of very destructive behavior.

[Arraya]

[quote=temeculaguy]Okay, so depression has increased according to some study. And was there a similar study each decade for the last few hundred years using the same criteria? That’s the problem with trying to measure something quantitatively when the measuring stick keeps changing.[/quote]

Actually, pretty much all studies not funded by industry(who happen to profit immensely from this trend). It’s turning into the most expensive illness to deal with. – but it overlaps with other stress related illness that have real physical manifestations that are not just in somebody’s head. It is changes in brain chemistry brought about by a changing environment and exacerbated by “conditioning” mass communications. It’s systemic.

[quote=temeculaguy]
I call bullshit on the whole societal decay thing again, especially the argument that because we aren’t affected, we can’t see it happening.[/quote]

You can call bullshit all you want – they did the same thing in every other society throughout history that decayed and collapsed. Actually, that is part of the process. Though, I will say, it probably is not good for troubling shooting – it’s more of a defense mechanism because you feel you are being attacked.

My favorite story about human stupidity and how it was fought is about a doctor named Ignaz Semmelweis. He discovered that childbed fever mortality rates could be reduced ten-fold if doctors would wash their hands (we would now say disinfect). This idea was fought, called unscientific by the medical community and was not adopted until decades after his death. He eventually, ended up dying in a mental institute.

The “Semmelweis effect” is a metaphor for the reflex-like rejection of new knowledge because it contradicts entrenched norms, beliefs or paradigms.

[quote=temeculaguy]
I still didn’t see anyone pick a decade so we can see it’s gone downhill since then. Nobody will, because I will pick apart that decade and bring up all of it’s flaws. We all know that society was worse last year, last decade, last century and so on, picking a date in time is walking into a buzz saw. Sure there are bits and pieces that might be better, but overall, society moves forward and gets better, if you look at the big picture and the individual experience.[/quote]

Humans are a mixed bag, they do some really stupid things and they also correct those stupid things, given the right understanding. Often times we misplace cause and effect and/or blame victims, it’s part of a cultural self-defense mechanism. A decade is not nearly long enough for a study like this. You need a generation. See; Below

[quote=temeculaguy]
Pick a group or a person, throw some labels on them and then plot their experience on a timeline, you tell me when in time their life was better if it is not today. And I’m also convinced that next year and the year after that, it will be even better. Here, I’ll do the first few for you:[/quote]

Actually, Elizabeth Warren does a great presentation about the middle class and how much worse off they are in aggregate from a generation ago on the “world turned upside down” thread. It’s pretty irrefutable. I could also make a great case how they will get kicked in the teeth even harder in the near future. Actually, I don’t think we will have to wait long to see this manifest.

[quote=temeculaguy]
Black people-Let’s see the 1700’s and 1800’s sucked pretty hard with that whole slavery thing. The early 1900’s was no picnic but did get better. Segregation went away over time, education began catching up, professional jobs (doctors,lawyers, etc.) starting showing up. They allowed them to play in the professional sports leagues about 60 years ago, they could marry out of their race eventually. Now look at today, the president is black, half of the most powerful and popular media figures are black, most people under 30 cannot even fathom what things were like in the 50’s and earlier. Is it perfect? No. Is it better every day? Yes.
[/quote]

Yes TG getting rid of slavery was good! Bravo for you good sense of right and wrong! lol. Todays problems are not so clear-cut.

[quote=temeculaguy]
American Indians-similar to the above situation but with some variations, the 1800’s were pretty crappy, with that whole genocide thing. Today many of them have some money, power and influence. Education is starting to happen and they are once again walking around proud of who they are. Has money been the doenfall of some, are some stll living in poverty? Yes. Was being rounded up, having their food supply destroyed and being slaughtered worse? Yes.
[/quote]

Yes, we are not committing genocide and mass violent dispossessions on entire peoples, which is good. I agree, something else we can chalk up in the “things humans ge right” category. We now understand things like this are inherently evil. Another move forward for collective consciousness! Horay!

Though, the Native Americans were a fascination of mine as a child. I will say the demonization methods used are still used today on certain peoples for similar reasons. We still have the tendency and people fall into the demonization trap. The demonization of the “other” is something we still have to work on as a species. It’s now used by people for power seeking and/or perceived society preserving reasons. We just killed several hundred thousand humans, in this day and age, that would have been met with more resistance if these ancient demonization methods were not employed. So I would label that a net negative from humanity not learning a lesson. That is a social failure. The good news is the collective would not accept such actions unless demonization methods were not employed.

[quote=temeculaguy]
Gays-This one is pretty easy, I doubt anyone would rather be gay and live during another decade.[/quote]

I agree, I think this that is a net positive. Horay! Another one for humans being smart and doing the right thing.

[quote=temeculaguy]
I’ll stop there, but I could detail every racial group, women of those groups and white women. Poor people never really need to worry about dying of starvation anymore.[/quote]

Agreed, some good things!

[quote=temeculaguy]
Do you really think that a black woman in 2011 who takes zoloft for depression would be happier as a slave in 1820 working in a field, or sitting int the back of a bus in 1945. You can exchange the black woman for a gay teenager or whatever you want. Just because people seek treatment for mild depression does not mean we are going to hell in a hand basket. They are merely taking care of minor issues that in previous decades during history they did not have the time or the means to seek treatment. When everything else is so shitty, you don’t notice the little things. If you had four bullet wounds to your chest, you wouldn’t care about needing some stitches for a cut on your arm. Just because more people are getting stitches now doesnt mean they are getting hurt more, it means that they don’t have bullet wounds and they can deal with the minor issues.
[/quote]

Today’s problems transcend racial, sexual orientation and genders. They are universal. We did a pretty good job at leveling the field in those respects and you know what, people were fighting the changes and ignoring the problems JUST LIKE YOU ARE DOING NOW;) – but good people still fought a moved society forward. Slave owners actually made cases how slaves were better off under them than they would be otherwise.

[quote=temeculaguy]
It’s still not perfect, but more people today feel that they matter, that they are important, that they are beautiful and they have something to offer than at any other time in history. Chasing ones dreams is no longer something reserved for the elite, reaching your goals is more possible than ever before, for everyone. There is still failure and disapointment, but there less glass cielings, less judgement and less societal pressure to be something you are not and I know that will continue. I’m not being optimistic, I’m being realistic, the evidence is everywhere if you just look.
[/quote]

People are amazing in the respect that everybody’s perceptions are different and one can pick things out of the complexity of reality and create almost ANY narrative they like. This is why science and the application of the scientific method are so important. It’s kind of our tool to weed through perceptions created by our evolutionary developed “pattern seeking” and culturally biased minds and getting a closer approximations of truth.

It’s pretty apparent our patterns of behavior, looking at a broad base of multi-disciplinary scientific studies, is trending in the direction of being unhealthy, looked at it on multiple levels. It’s also apparent, because of some inherent and worsening structural problems – that we will have massive demographic shifts, some extreme wealth concentrations and a social backlash from this things. So the good news is these unhealthy patterns of behavior will get disrupted – that bad news is our patterns of behavior will get disrupted and we are going to be pissed and just be a big ball of anger and finger pointing confusion on why this happened. My advice, is don’t get sucked into the anger.

I was a borderline fatalist that turned to an unrepentant idealist and have honed my disjointed apocalyptic rants into a finely tuned and ever evolving cultural critique. And my critiques are going to hurt because it’s going to kick us right in the cherished beliefs. I have faith in humanity, that we will be able to figure it out, and move humanities march forward towards progress. We certainly have all the knowledge and will to do so, it’s just about putting it all together. We just have some deeply held beliefs that are going to be challenged in the future, which is going to make it very hard. To put simply, we are going to have to socially change to move forward and we don’t want to change. But we will, we will go kicking a screaming into the future, just as we always have – there is no stopping it. This time around it’s going to happen a lot faster than we are used to historically. Speed of information transfer is a wonderful thing!

When one studies past societal collapses, it is not that the people disappear,though, often times, it was coupled with wars and other nasty things, but the political and economic structure completely change. I suggest this will still be a messy process, but the good in people will prevail and not lead into old patterns of very destructive behavior.

[faterikcartman]

Another great Steyn article and another reference to Lord of the Flies.

http://articles.ocregister.com/2011-08-12/news/29885198_1_london-big-government-human-rights

[faterikcartman]

Another great Steyn article and another reference to Lord of the Flies.

http://articles.ocregister.com/2011-08-12/news/29885198_1_london-big-government-human-rights

[faterikcartman]

Another great Steyn article and another reference to Lord of the Flies.

http://articles.ocregister.com/2011-08-12/news/29885198_1_london-big-government-human-rights

[faterikcartman]

Another great Steyn article and another reference to Lord of the Flies.

http://articles.ocregister.com/2011-08-12/news/29885198_1_london-big-government-human-rights

[faterikcartman]

Another great Steyn article and another reference to Lord of the Flies.

http://articles.ocregister.com/2011-08-12/news/29885198_1_london-big-government-human-rights

[Allan from Fallbrook]

[quote=Arraya]
My favorite story about human stupidity and how it was fought is about a doctor named Ignaz Semmelweis. He discovered that childbed fever mortality rates could be reduced ten-fold if doctors would wash their hands (we would now say disinfect). This idea was fought, called unscientific by the medical community and was not adopted until decades after his death. He eventually, ended up dying in a mental institute.

The “Semmelweis effect” is a metaphor for the reflex-like rejection of new knowledge because it contradicts entrenched norms, beliefs or paradigms.

[/quote]

Arraya: Check out GSF (Gadarene Swine Fallacy) as well: http://www.philosophicalsociety.com/Archives/The%20Gadarene%20Swine%20Fallacy.htm

[Allan from Fallbrook]

[quote=Arraya]
My favorite story about human stupidity and how it was fought is about a doctor named Ignaz Semmelweis. He discovered that childbed fever mortality rates could be reduced ten-fold if doctors would wash their hands (we would now say disinfect). This idea was fought, called unscientific by the medical community and was not adopted until decades after his death. He eventually, ended up dying in a mental institute.

The “Semmelweis effect” is a metaphor for the reflex-like rejection of new knowledge because it contradicts entrenched norms, beliefs or paradigms.

[/quote]

Arraya: Check out GSF (Gadarene Swine Fallacy) as well: http://www.philosophicalsociety.com/Archives/The%20Gadarene%20Swine%20Fallacy.htm

[Allan from Fallbrook]

[quote=Arraya]
My favorite story about human stupidity and how it was fought is about a doctor named Ignaz Semmelweis. He discovered that childbed fever mortality rates could be reduced ten-fold if doctors would wash their hands (we would now say disinfect). This idea was fought, called unscientific by the medical community and was not adopted until decades after his death. He eventually, ended up dying in a mental institute.

The “Semmelweis effect” is a metaphor for the reflex-like rejection of new knowledge because it contradicts entrenched norms, beliefs or paradigms.

[/quote]

Arraya: Check out GSF (Gadarene Swine Fallacy) as well: http://www.philosophicalsociety.com/Archives/The%20Gadarene%20Swine%20Fallacy.htm

[Allan from Fallbrook]

[quote=Arraya]
My favorite story about human stupidity and how it was fought is about a doctor named Ignaz Semmelweis. He discovered that childbed fever mortality rates could be reduced ten-fold if doctors would wash their hands (we would now say disinfect). This idea was fought, called unscientific by the medical community and was not adopted until decades after his death. He eventually, ended up dying in a mental institute.

The “Semmelweis effect” is a metaphor for the reflex-like rejection of new knowledge because it contradicts entrenched norms, beliefs or paradigms.

[/quote]

Arraya: Check out GSF (Gadarene Swine Fallacy) as well: http://www.philosophicalsociety.com/Archives/The%20Gadarene%20Swine%20Fallacy.htm

[Author]

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