Lord of the Flies

[CA renter]

[quote=briansd1]We have 14 million unauthorized immigrants in this country. We could greatly improve aggregate social health by legalizing all 14 million of them.[/quote]

How would that improve aggregate social health?

You don’t seem to distinguish between the different types of immigrants. You say that by adding millions of poor, unskilled workers to our population that, magically, everything will turn out better. That hasn’t happened so far. “Cheap,” illegal labor (“cheap” only to the employers, not to the taxpayers…the profits have been privatized, and the losses/expenses socialized, yet again) has only served to drive down the wages of a huge portion of our population, while increasing the burden on taxpayer-funded education, infrastructure, healthcare, and legal/law enforcement systems in our country. It’s also increased housing costs for those very people whose wages have been decimated by this “cheap” labor. How can you say we’ve benefitted from this massive influx of low-skilled, illegal immigrants?

IMHO, immigration is fine, but we need to bring in people who will improve our economy, not burden it further. We can — and should — allow a certain number of refugees and people from poor countries to enter our country legally, but it needs to be limited and carefully monitored so that we don’t overwhelm our capacity to handle them.

In the meantime, the leaders of these poor countries need to get their sh~t together so that their people don’t feel desperate enough to risk their own lives just to escape. The level of corruption in these countries is off the charts.

[briansd1]

CA renter, I was addressing not so much immigration policy but how to relieve stress, fear and anxiety off of a significant portion of our population. The immigrants already here are part of our population. Their stress affects social health.

I agree with Arraya that stress and anxiety are dangerous aspects of our society. There are enough factors that affect us already that we don’t need to create any more real or perceived threats.

[briansd1]

CA renter, I was addressing not so much immigration policy but how to relieve stress, fear and anxiety off of a significant portion of our population. The immigrants already here are part of our population. Their stress affects social health.

I agree with Arraya that stress and anxiety are dangerous aspects of our society. There are enough factors that affect us already that we don’t need to create any more real or perceived threats.

[briansd1]

CA renter, I was addressing not so much immigration policy but how to relieve stress, fear and anxiety off of a significant portion of our population. The immigrants already here are part of our population. Their stress affects social health.

I agree with Arraya that stress and anxiety are dangerous aspects of our society. There are enough factors that affect us already that we don’t need to create any more real or perceived threats.

[briansd1]

CA renter, I was addressing not so much immigration policy but how to relieve stress, fear and anxiety off of a significant portion of our population. The immigrants already here are part of our population. Their stress affects social health.

I agree with Arraya that stress and anxiety are dangerous aspects of our society. There are enough factors that affect us already that we don’t need to create any more real or perceived threats.

[briansd1]

CA renter, I was addressing not so much immigration policy but how to relieve stress, fear and anxiety off of a significant portion of our population. The immigrants already here are part of our population. Their stress affects social health.

I agree with Arraya that stress and anxiety are dangerous aspects of our society. There are enough factors that affect us already that we don’t need to create any more real or perceived threats.

[Arraya]

[quote=briansd1]

It’s all relative. Happiness is how we feel in relation to others. [/quote]

There are some connections but not totally relative

[quote=briansd1]
It’s interesting that Arraya mentions psychological health as a determinant of social health and sustainability.
[/quote]

I think a healthy society is something to strive for, don’t you?

[quote=briansd1]
More generally, I believe that the 20th century (the American Century) is a rather unusual period in human history.
[/quote]

All time periods are unique – the 20th century was the tail end of the industrial revolution, when the west went from being a mostly agrarian society to urban. This is a major transition. In 1820 80% of the population was in food production. It’s like 2% in the west now.

[quote=briansd1]
The relative prosperity and social superiority have eroded so that’s why we have all that anxiety in “Middle America.” The Tea Party is a manifestation of White middle-class anxiety. [/quote]

Well, if you put an old white guy in office you would see anxiety in different areas. The unemployment in urban centers is as high as it’s ever been.

The shock to national pride and self-image is formidable, and it is sudden as well. The country is coping very badly with this shock. The population is seeking scapegoats and lashing out wildly, and not too intelligently, at the presumed guilty parties. With an all to willing ruling class ready to guide this anger. The last hope seems to be that someone is at fault, and therefore the remedy is to change the people in authority. This is futile – it’s just not the reality of how the system operates. The difference between the left and right is the right wants to bludgeon the working and poor classes with a blunt object over their head knocking them out quickly and the left wants to slowly poison them. I will say, a left wing government will be better for social stability and slow the decline. Kind of like a slow boil. I rather the masses get boiling water thrown on their backs.

The United States today is, I would say, one of the least stable modern political entities in the world-system. Driven by massive demographic shifts towards a lower standard of living, extreme high stress and the subsequent behavior and physical problems associated with this, misguided troubleshooting and mind numbing propaganda which exacerbates the madness.

But, your glee in this downfall is misplaced and hence inappropriate. You think if only people were smart and voted D that this outcome would have changed. This is just a modern liberal defense mechanism to throwing the poor and working class under the bus 40 years ago. You are, in a sense, blaming victims.

The decline of the United States is not the result of poor decisions by its president or politicians, but of structural realities in the capitalist world-system. And nobody will say that.

[quote=briansd1]
Unlike physical needs such as hunger, psychological stress can be eliminated by changing the way we think. Honestly, I believe that stress and anxiety are self-induced. It’s up to individuals to change how we absorbe the external stimuli [/quote]

No brian, like your thoughts on addiction, this is not about will power. See the link to addiction and the brain I posted up thread. Stresses are induced by environmental changes – these changes are brought about by shifting demographics and living standards exacerbated by mass communications. The changes the spawned these stresses will intensify.

The increasing underclass, destruction of the middle class and growing wealth disparity are not in peoples heads. The are a reality as well as a trajectory that does not end well. And it won’t be stopped until it snaps.

[quote=briansd1]
I still believe that temeculaguy is right. As long as the human condition improves where there’s more freedom, more choices, less poverty for a greater portion of the world’s population, we are better off. Bring it on! [/quote]

It’s not improving – besides for certain segments due to short-term factors that will end. But it’s always good to be super-wealthy;)

[Arraya]

[quote=briansd1]

It’s all relative. Happiness is how we feel in relation to others. [/quote]

There are some connections but not totally relative

[quote=briansd1]
It’s interesting that Arraya mentions psychological health as a determinant of social health and sustainability.
[/quote]

I think a healthy society is something to strive for, don’t you?

[quote=briansd1]
More generally, I believe that the 20th century (the American Century) is a rather unusual period in human history.
[/quote]

All time periods are unique – the 20th century was the tail end of the industrial revolution, when the west went from being a mostly agrarian society to urban. This is a major transition. In 1820 80% of the population was in food production. It’s like 2% in the west now.

[quote=briansd1]
The relative prosperity and social superiority have eroded so that’s why we have all that anxiety in “Middle America.” The Tea Party is a manifestation of White middle-class anxiety. [/quote]

Well, if you put an old white guy in office you would see anxiety in different areas. The unemployment in urban centers is as high as it’s ever been.

The shock to national pride and self-image is formidable, and it is sudden as well. The country is coping very badly with this shock. The population is seeking scapegoats and lashing out wildly, and not too intelligently, at the presumed guilty parties. With an all to willing ruling class ready to guide this anger. The last hope seems to be that someone is at fault, and therefore the remedy is to change the people in authority. This is futile – it’s just not the reality of how the system operates. The difference between the left and right is the right wants to bludgeon the working and poor classes with a blunt object over their head knocking them out quickly and the left wants to slowly poison them. I will say, a left wing government will be better for social stability and slow the decline. Kind of like a slow boil. I rather the masses get boiling water thrown on their backs.

The United States today is, I would say, one of the least stable modern political entities in the world-system. Driven by massive demographic shifts towards a lower standard of living, extreme high stress and the subsequent behavior and physical problems associated with this, misguided troubleshooting and mind numbing propaganda which exacerbates the madness.

But, your glee in this downfall is misplaced and hence inappropriate. You think if only people were smart and voted D that this outcome would have changed. This is just a modern liberal defense mechanism to throwing the poor and working class under the bus 40 years ago. You are, in a sense, blaming victims.

The decline of the United States is not the result of poor decisions by its president or politicians, but of structural realities in the capitalist world-system. And nobody will say that.

[quote=briansd1]
Unlike physical needs such as hunger, psychological stress can be eliminated by changing the way we think. Honestly, I believe that stress and anxiety are self-induced. It’s up to individuals to change how we absorbe the external stimuli [/quote]

No brian, like your thoughts on addiction, this is not about will power. See the link to addiction and the brain I posted up thread. Stresses are induced by environmental changes – these changes are brought about by shifting demographics and living standards exacerbated by mass communications. The changes the spawned these stresses will intensify.

The increasing underclass, destruction of the middle class and growing wealth disparity are not in peoples heads. The are a reality as well as a trajectory that does not end well. And it won’t be stopped until it snaps.

[quote=briansd1]
I still believe that temeculaguy is right. As long as the human condition improves where there’s more freedom, more choices, less poverty for a greater portion of the world’s population, we are better off. Bring it on! [/quote]

It’s not improving – besides for certain segments due to short-term factors that will end. But it’s always good to be super-wealthy;)

[Arraya]

[quote=briansd1]

It’s all relative. Happiness is how we feel in relation to others. [/quote]

There are some connections but not totally relative

[quote=briansd1]
It’s interesting that Arraya mentions psychological health as a determinant of social health and sustainability.
[/quote]

I think a healthy society is something to strive for, don’t you?

[quote=briansd1]
More generally, I believe that the 20th century (the American Century) is a rather unusual period in human history.
[/quote]

All time periods are unique – the 20th century was the tail end of the industrial revolution, when the west went from being a mostly agrarian society to urban. This is a major transition. In 1820 80% of the population was in food production. It’s like 2% in the west now.

[quote=briansd1]
The relative prosperity and social superiority have eroded so that’s why we have all that anxiety in “Middle America.” The Tea Party is a manifestation of White middle-class anxiety. [/quote]

Well, if you put an old white guy in office you would see anxiety in different areas. The unemployment in urban centers is as high as it’s ever been.

The shock to national pride and self-image is formidable, and it is sudden as well. The country is coping very badly with this shock. The population is seeking scapegoats and lashing out wildly, and not too intelligently, at the presumed guilty parties. With an all to willing ruling class ready to guide this anger. The last hope seems to be that someone is at fault, and therefore the remedy is to change the people in authority. This is futile – it’s just not the reality of how the system operates. The difference between the left and right is the right wants to bludgeon the working and poor classes with a blunt object over their head knocking them out quickly and the left wants to slowly poison them. I will say, a left wing government will be better for social stability and slow the decline. Kind of like a slow boil. I rather the masses get boiling water thrown on their backs.

The United States today is, I would say, one of the least stable modern political entities in the world-system. Driven by massive demographic shifts towards a lower standard of living, extreme high stress and the subsequent behavior and physical problems associated with this, misguided troubleshooting and mind numbing propaganda which exacerbates the madness.

But, your glee in this downfall is misplaced and hence inappropriate. You think if only people were smart and voted D that this outcome would have changed. This is just a modern liberal defense mechanism to throwing the poor and working class under the bus 40 years ago. You are, in a sense, blaming victims.

The decline of the United States is not the result of poor decisions by its president or politicians, but of structural realities in the capitalist world-system. And nobody will say that.

[quote=briansd1]
Unlike physical needs such as hunger, psychological stress can be eliminated by changing the way we think. Honestly, I believe that stress and anxiety are self-induced. It’s up to individuals to change how we absorbe the external stimuli [/quote]

No brian, like your thoughts on addiction, this is not about will power. See the link to addiction and the brain I posted up thread. Stresses are induced by environmental changes – these changes are brought about by shifting demographics and living standards exacerbated by mass communications. The changes the spawned these stresses will intensify.

The increasing underclass, destruction of the middle class and growing wealth disparity are not in peoples heads. The are a reality as well as a trajectory that does not end well. And it won’t be stopped until it snaps.

[quote=briansd1]
I still believe that temeculaguy is right. As long as the human condition improves where there’s more freedom, more choices, less poverty for a greater portion of the world’s population, we are better off. Bring it on! [/quote]

It’s not improving – besides for certain segments due to short-term factors that will end. But it’s always good to be super-wealthy;)

[Arraya]

[quote=briansd1]

It’s all relative. Happiness is how we feel in relation to others. [/quote]

There are some connections but not totally relative

[quote=briansd1]
It’s interesting that Arraya mentions psychological health as a determinant of social health and sustainability.
[/quote]

I think a healthy society is something to strive for, don’t you?

[quote=briansd1]
More generally, I believe that the 20th century (the American Century) is a rather unusual period in human history.
[/quote]

All time periods are unique – the 20th century was the tail end of the industrial revolution, when the west went from being a mostly agrarian society to urban. This is a major transition. In 1820 80% of the population was in food production. It’s like 2% in the west now.

[quote=briansd1]
The relative prosperity and social superiority have eroded so that’s why we have all that anxiety in “Middle America.” The Tea Party is a manifestation of White middle-class anxiety. [/quote]

Well, if you put an old white guy in office you would see anxiety in different areas. The unemployment in urban centers is as high as it’s ever been.

The shock to national pride and self-image is formidable, and it is sudden as well. The country is coping very badly with this shock. The population is seeking scapegoats and lashing out wildly, and not too intelligently, at the presumed guilty parties. With an all to willing ruling class ready to guide this anger. The last hope seems to be that someone is at fault, and therefore the remedy is to change the people in authority. This is futile – it’s just not the reality of how the system operates. The difference between the left and right is the right wants to bludgeon the working and poor classes with a blunt object over their head knocking them out quickly and the left wants to slowly poison them. I will say, a left wing government will be better for social stability and slow the decline. Kind of like a slow boil. I rather the masses get boiling water thrown on their backs.

The United States today is, I would say, one of the least stable modern political entities in the world-system. Driven by massive demographic shifts towards a lower standard of living, extreme high stress and the subsequent behavior and physical problems associated with this, misguided troubleshooting and mind numbing propaganda which exacerbates the madness.

But, your glee in this downfall is misplaced and hence inappropriate. You think if only people were smart and voted D that this outcome would have changed. This is just a modern liberal defense mechanism to throwing the poor and working class under the bus 40 years ago. You are, in a sense, blaming victims.

The decline of the United States is not the result of poor decisions by its president or politicians, but of structural realities in the capitalist world-system. And nobody will say that.

[quote=briansd1]
Unlike physical needs such as hunger, psychological stress can be eliminated by changing the way we think. Honestly, I believe that stress and anxiety are self-induced. It’s up to individuals to change how we absorbe the external stimuli [/quote]

No brian, like your thoughts on addiction, this is not about will power. See the link to addiction and the brain I posted up thread. Stresses are induced by environmental changes – these changes are brought about by shifting demographics and living standards exacerbated by mass communications. The changes the spawned these stresses will intensify.

The increasing underclass, destruction of the middle class and growing wealth disparity are not in peoples heads. The are a reality as well as a trajectory that does not end well. And it won’t be stopped until it snaps.

[quote=briansd1]
I still believe that temeculaguy is right. As long as the human condition improves where there’s more freedom, more choices, less poverty for a greater portion of the world’s population, we are better off. Bring it on! [/quote]

It’s not improving – besides for certain segments due to short-term factors that will end. But it’s always good to be super-wealthy;)

[Arraya]

[quote=briansd1]

It’s all relative. Happiness is how we feel in relation to others. [/quote]

There are some connections but not totally relative

[quote=briansd1]
It’s interesting that Arraya mentions psychological health as a determinant of social health and sustainability.
[/quote]

I think a healthy society is something to strive for, don’t you?

[quote=briansd1]
More generally, I believe that the 20th century (the American Century) is a rather unusual period in human history.
[/quote]

All time periods are unique – the 20th century was the tail end of the industrial revolution, when the west went from being a mostly agrarian society to urban. This is a major transition. In 1820 80% of the population was in food production. It’s like 2% in the west now.

[quote=briansd1]
The relative prosperity and social superiority have eroded so that’s why we have all that anxiety in “Middle America.” The Tea Party is a manifestation of White middle-class anxiety. [/quote]

Well, if you put an old white guy in office you would see anxiety in different areas. The unemployment in urban centers is as high as it’s ever been.

The shock to national pride and self-image is formidable, and it is sudden as well. The country is coping very badly with this shock. The population is seeking scapegoats and lashing out wildly, and not too intelligently, at the presumed guilty parties. With an all to willing ruling class ready to guide this anger. The last hope seems to be that someone is at fault, and therefore the remedy is to change the people in authority. This is futile – it’s just not the reality of how the system operates. The difference between the left and right is the right wants to bludgeon the working and poor classes with a blunt object over their head knocking them out quickly and the left wants to slowly poison them. I will say, a left wing government will be better for social stability and slow the decline. Kind of like a slow boil. I rather the masses get boiling water thrown on their backs.

The United States today is, I would say, one of the least stable modern political entities in the world-system. Driven by massive demographic shifts towards a lower standard of living, extreme high stress and the subsequent behavior and physical problems associated with this, misguided troubleshooting and mind numbing propaganda which exacerbates the madness.

But, your glee in this downfall is misplaced and hence inappropriate. You think if only people were smart and voted D that this outcome would have changed. This is just a modern liberal defense mechanism to throwing the poor and working class under the bus 40 years ago. You are, in a sense, blaming victims.

The decline of the United States is not the result of poor decisions by its president or politicians, but of structural realities in the capitalist world-system. And nobody will say that.

[quote=briansd1]
Unlike physical needs such as hunger, psychological stress can be eliminated by changing the way we think. Honestly, I believe that stress and anxiety are self-induced. It’s up to individuals to change how we absorbe the external stimuli [/quote]

No brian, like your thoughts on addiction, this is not about will power. See the link to addiction and the brain I posted up thread. Stresses are induced by environmental changes – these changes are brought about by shifting demographics and living standards exacerbated by mass communications. The changes the spawned these stresses will intensify.

The increasing underclass, destruction of the middle class and growing wealth disparity are not in peoples heads. The are a reality as well as a trajectory that does not end well. And it won’t be stopped until it snaps.

[quote=briansd1]
I still believe that temeculaguy is right. As long as the human condition improves where there’s more freedom, more choices, less poverty for a greater portion of the world’s population, we are better off. Bring it on! [/quote]

It’s not improving – besides for certain segments due to short-term factors that will end. But it’s always good to be super-wealthy;)

[briansd1]

[quote=Arraya] The difference between the left and right is the right wants to bludgeon the working and poor classes with a blunt object over their head knocking them out quickly and the left wants to slowly poison them. I will say, a left wing government will be better for social stability and slow the decline. Kind of like a slow boil. I rather the masses get boiling water thrown on their backs.
[/quote]

I agree that there are structural and systemic problems with our society.

I’d rather have a slow boil so that, at least, we have a chance to peacefully transition to a new order. Whatever that new order is, nobody knows.

I don’t think a collapse of the existing order is good.

For example, revolution in the Egypt might have felt good for the demonstrators and their western supporters for a few months. But now they have slower economic growth and more poverty because of the instability. Not good.

[quote=Arraya]
You think if only people were smart and voted D that this outcome would have changed. This is just a modern liberal defense mechanism to throwing the poor and working class under the bus 40 years ago. You are, in a sense, blaming victims.
[/quote]

Yes, I’m blaming the victims. But if the victims of the past we able to rise up and fight back with pitch and folks, the victims of today can overcome the psychological oppression that is causing them stress and anxiety.

We have much better health knowledge today. We should use it.

[briansd1]

[quote=Arraya] The difference between the left and right is the right wants to bludgeon the working and poor classes with a blunt object over their head knocking them out quickly and the left wants to slowly poison them. I will say, a left wing government will be better for social stability and slow the decline. Kind of like a slow boil. I rather the masses get boiling water thrown on their backs.
[/quote]

I agree that there are structural and systemic problems with our society.

I’d rather have a slow boil so that, at least, we have a chance to peacefully transition to a new order. Whatever that new order is, nobody knows.

I don’t think a collapse of the existing order is good.

For example, revolution in the Egypt might have felt good for the demonstrators and their western supporters for a few months. But now they have slower economic growth and more poverty because of the instability. Not good.

[quote=Arraya]
You think if only people were smart and voted D that this outcome would have changed. This is just a modern liberal defense mechanism to throwing the poor and working class under the bus 40 years ago. You are, in a sense, blaming victims.
[/quote]

Yes, I’m blaming the victims. But if the victims of the past we able to rise up and fight back with pitch and folks, the victims of today can overcome the psychological oppression that is causing them stress and anxiety.

We have much better health knowledge today. We should use it.

[briansd1]

[quote=Arraya] The difference between the left and right is the right wants to bludgeon the working and poor classes with a blunt object over their head knocking them out quickly and the left wants to slowly poison them. I will say, a left wing government will be better for social stability and slow the decline. Kind of like a slow boil. I rather the masses get boiling water thrown on their backs.
[/quote]

I agree that there are structural and systemic problems with our society.

I’d rather have a slow boil so that, at least, we have a chance to peacefully transition to a new order. Whatever that new order is, nobody knows.

I don’t think a collapse of the existing order is good.

For example, revolution in the Egypt might have felt good for the demonstrators and their western supporters for a few months. But now they have slower economic growth and more poverty because of the instability. Not good.

[quote=Arraya]
You think if only people were smart and voted D that this outcome would have changed. This is just a modern liberal defense mechanism to throwing the poor and working class under the bus 40 years ago. You are, in a sense, blaming victims.
[/quote]

Yes, I’m blaming the victims. But if the victims of the past we able to rise up and fight back with pitch and folks, the victims of today can overcome the psychological oppression that is causing them stress and anxiety.

We have much better health knowledge today. We should use it.

[briansd1]

[quote=Arraya] The difference between the left and right is the right wants to bludgeon the working and poor classes with a blunt object over their head knocking them out quickly and the left wants to slowly poison them. I will say, a left wing government will be better for social stability and slow the decline. Kind of like a slow boil. I rather the masses get boiling water thrown on their backs.
[/quote]

I agree that there are structural and systemic problems with our society.

I’d rather have a slow boil so that, at least, we have a chance to peacefully transition to a new order. Whatever that new order is, nobody knows.

I don’t think a collapse of the existing order is good.

For example, revolution in the Egypt might have felt good for the demonstrators and their western supporters for a few months. But now they have slower economic growth and more poverty because of the instability. Not good.

[quote=Arraya]
You think if only people were smart and voted D that this outcome would have changed. This is just a modern liberal defense mechanism to throwing the poor and working class under the bus 40 years ago. You are, in a sense, blaming victims.
[/quote]

Yes, I’m blaming the victims. But if the victims of the past we able to rise up and fight back with pitch and folks, the victims of today can overcome the psychological oppression that is causing them stress and anxiety.

We have much better health knowledge today. We should use it.

[Author]

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