Jimmy Carter on Bush and the Middle East

[PerryChase]

I beleive that’s it works better if your talk people into cooperation than beat them into submission.

American has done a lot of good in the world. However, that in no way excuses the harm we’ve inflicted on people over the years. I beleive in doing what’s right. I won’t debate this point further because hawks will always believe in strong arms tactics.

I’ve been to China, while I don’t defend China, China’s actions in Tibet in the 20th century is very much like how we conquered the West in the 19th century.

While Tibetans might not like Chinese rule, China has brought relative prosperity to Tibet. People there live better than Tibetans in India. As far as Xingjiang (the predominantly muslin province) is concerned, people there live much better than in neighboring Uzbekistan and Takjikistan.
Sad as it sounds, Tibetans in Tibet, and Uugurs in Xingjiang will end-up like Hispanics in the American west — an underclass in their original land (but better off than they would be as part of Mexico or as an independent state? ).

[Anonymous]

RandF : I am very sorry to hear about your horse not drinking any water even after you had led him to it. He must be very thirsty by now.

During other president times, any horse would willingly drink water even when Carter and Clinton, was in power. It must therefore be due to Bush’s environmental policy and lack of clean water. Either that or it is due to global warming and your water has evaporated.

Even horses have rights (and lefts come to think of it) and to quote the great Equinuine leader, Trotsky, “Horses of the world unit: You have nothing to loose by your reigns”.

[ybc]

PerryChase,

Have you been to Tibet and Xingjiang? I always wanted to go there. I agree with you completely. I remember that in high school and in college, we had students from those regions (Xingjiang) who were on full scholarship. It was the government’s program to get the most promised youth better educated — even though they would not have been admitted otherwise. But there is still a lot of resentment among people in Tibet and Xingjing, I believe. In the end, there is a lot to say about independence and autonomy. Chinese government’s attempt was more serious, more competently carried out, with some cruelty along the way. (Compared to US’s Iraqi fiasco).

When Bush wants to spread “liberty and democracy” around the world, he perhaps didn’t realize that he’s invading others’ sense of independence, including their religious beliefs. (Well, their lifes too!) Plus, he only cares about people agreeing with him (or even worshiping him) anyway. So I don’t know if his version of “democracy” is democracy at all. I read that one of the things that he absolutely insisted on was that the new Iraqi government “thank” the US for “liberating” Iraq.

[PerryChase]

ybc, yes, I spent several months traveling in China last year. I went all the way to Kashgar. If you have time, just pack a bag; get a Lonely Planet or Rough Guide then go. I traveled by bus, coach train, luxury train. I saw how poor folks and how rich folks live. China is perfectly safe for solo travel and you can always find hotels (from nice to budget) along the way so you don’t have to make advance reservations or be on a schedule. Now, there’s even a new train through the mountains into Tibet. I’d like to go back and take that new train.

I’m happy I was able to appreciate China for the amazing diverse country that it is rather than a bunch of worker bees trying to steal American jobs. There are blue-eyed people in Western China! Some people are very beautiful with European features and Mongolian eyes (not to say that Han Chinese or other ethnicities are not beautiful).

What struck me most is how friendly people are. I don’t speak the language but I was always able to find help.

The way China approaches its minorities is not much different than how we do things in America. They have affirmative action programs for students from the autonomous regions; and while university admission is extremely competitive, they will find spots for bright students. I have a Uyghur friend who got a full scholarship to Beijing University and now works for the Foreign Ministry. He looks Hispanic with brown hair but he’s Uyghur Chinese.

The reason minorities in China feel oppressed is because they don’t speak Mandarin and they are neither part of, nor do they understand the establishment. But I can tell you that most of them are thankful for the jobs, the roads and the infrastructure and the consumer goods that the Han Chinese brought. There’s a big boom in Western China and Tibet now and local city folks are becoming wealthy on real estate appreciation. The most destitute people in China are the rural migrant workers, regardless of ethnicity, who have neither permanent jobs nor homes. They stream into the cities looking for work.

BTW, the real estate bubbles in Beijing and Shanghai are so much bigger than San Diego. Shanghai is reaching Manhattan levels but the median income there is relatively low.

As far as Iraq is concerned, now that we’re already there, I say, tighten our belts, make real sacrifices, send 1 million troops and really fix the problem, or get out. The current half measures of holding Baghdad while insurgents run amok everywhere simply aren’t working. Some have said that invading Iraq was America’s greatest gift to Iran.

[rankandfile]

It wasn’t Mexico’s land originally. They also took it from the Native Americans. Mexico’s hands are just as dirty as America’s.

[CardiffBaseball]

It wasn't Mexico's land originally. They also took it from the Native Americans. Mexico's hands are just as dirty as America's.

 

True and I am guessing Vincente Fox has some European Stock in him?  He sure doesn't look like one of the little guys that make it across the border. Wasn't Mexico only in control of some of these lands for less than 30 years?  I could be mixing up Texas, where it wasn't in control of Mexico for a long time before the Texans fought for independence.

[Diego Mamani]

Rankand file wrote:

… why our enemies, particularly Muslims, hate us so much, I couldn’t disagree with you more. It’s not because we are on their holy land and it is not because we support Israel. We are different than they are and I think we are a threat to their existence.

You are saying that they hate just because they do? How is it that by being different we are a threat to their existence? That is completely false and only incites more hatred and violence, from both sides. Let’s see a famous example. The leader of the nine-eleven atacks is thought to have been M. Atta, who piloted one of the planes. Unlike the average suicide bomber in occupied Palestine (who is young, uneducated, broke, unable to afford marriage and has no future), this Atta guy was an educated, upper middle class Egyptian who spoke many languages (English, German, Arabic) and had a Master’s degree in Germany. (BTW, how many languages do you speak rankandfile?).

Anyways, my point is that this guy grew up in the context of the Palestinian problem: First, Palestinians were forcefully removed from their homeland in order to make room for a theocratic state for European jews. Second, this new state received and continues to receive countless amounts of money and weapons from the USA, weapons that are used to repress the Palestinian resistance.

While our TV news shows gave us not much more than high-speed chases and celebrity gossip, Egyptian (and other countries’) TV shows have always had uncensored coverage of the atrocities committed in the name of defending Israel against those who want only to recover their homeland from the European jews who took it by force. It’s not surprising then, that even educated people like Atta would hate us, not because we’re different, but because of the extreme injustice commited against the Palestinians with the full support of the USA.

We all have a sense the good should prevail over evil, that even though there are thieves, rapists, and murderers in this world, we know, or at least we hope, that the bad guys are eventually caught, tried and locked up. We perhaps sleep a bit better at night thinking that the bad guys can’t continue to do evil for too long and that they are eventualy stopped. Contrast this with the situation in Palestine. Palestinians had lived in Palestine for centuries, even millenia, in the same way that the English in England or the Hopi Indians in Arizona. However, they were expelled from their country at gun point. It’s true that there was no Palestinian state before, as it had been a Roman province, later a province of the Ottoman Empire, and later a British protectorate. But there has always been a Palestinian nation, a group of people with traditions, customs, ways of life, and a territory that made them different from other Arabs.

But the zionists (jews, mostly Europeans, who want to establish a theocratic jewish state in Palestine by force) armed themselves, staged terrorists acts in the 1940s (they blew up the King David Hotel, killing many), and eventually succeeded in ethnically cleansing the Palestinians from a big chunk of Palestine and creating their new state.

Now, anybody who believes that evil cannot prevail over good, at least not for long, perhaps hoped that the injustice would be reversed, that perhaps the international community would intervene to prevent this mounstrocity from continuing. But it does continue to this day. Over the years we have been conditioned to think that Palestinian, Muslim, Arab, and terrorist are one and the same thing. But there was no violence there in the 1940s, except for that brought by the zionists. Even jews who had peacefully lived in Palestine for generations turned against their muslim neighbors and said to them: “you know you can be killed if you stay; you better give me your house and flee; I will not pay you but I’d be grateful”.

And that large scale theft has been perpetuated since 1948 by brute force and mostly with US funding. Is it a surprise that they hate us? And if they do, obviously is not because we are different. It is because of this great injustice. The Israeli lobby in the US is all-powerful and resourceful; it contributes millions to political campaigns. Do we gain anything by supporting Israel? If anything, we gain mortal enemies and nine-eleven.

We should do a better job of educating ourselves of these issues, and we shouldn’t let our foreign policy be hijacked by special-interest groups like the Israeli lobby.

[ybc]

PerryChase – thanks for sharing your experience traveling in China. You’re a sharp observer. Visiting Xinjiang was my childhood dream. I would volunteer myself as a translator the next time you go, although you do just fine without one.:-) I’m know that I’m off the topic, so thanks again. Next time I go to China, I will ask for tip from you!:-)

[Diego Mamani]

Bgates, you asked me:

“Saddam was a crook and a dictator, but he was no madman, and he kept order in his country.” How do you know that? Were there independent media reports from Fallujah about how safe it was in the 90’s? Have you seen Baghdad police records documenting crime rates? Or do you think that if the tv news and western newspapers didn’t tell you about something, it must not be happening?

That’s no secret, and the “before” and “after” 2003 invasion status is well known.

BEFORE. Corrupt and crooked dictatorship in Iraq. Life was made difficult b/c of the UN-imposed sanctions. These sanctions were imposed b/c of Iraq’s invasion of Kuwait in 1990, so the Iraqis had no one to blame but themselves. No freedom of speech nor free press. Dissidents were harassed, jailed, or worse. UN arm inspectors frequently visited the country to search for biological or nuclear weapons, but never left satisfied b/c the iraqis always pretended to hide something. There was little crime in this police state that controlled everything, but people had running water, electricity, etc. Was I happy with this situation? Of course not, I think that only a full democratic system is acceptable. But this doesn’t mean that we are entitled to impose democracy on them at gun point.

AFTER. Widespread chaos and violence. Running water and electricty infrastructure were destroyed. The National Museum, that housed objects dating back 4,000 and 5,000 years, remnants of the earliest civilizations on earth, were looted in front of the US forces who didn’t care. Shiite and Sunni, who had some degree of coexistence and intermarriage, were suddenly fighting each other, blowing up mosques and people. The fact that the 2003 invasion had been based on lies has only served to recruit fanatics for al-qaeda who now flock to Iraq, which has become an ideal training ground for them. Even today, over 40 months after the invasion, the number of weekly deaths is shockingly high. In addition to sectarian violence among iraqis, and resistance against coallition forces, there is widespread organized crime.

All this is well known. I don’t see how you can suggest that Iraq today is no worse than before the invasion. Saddam, a despicable dictator, was more like a mafia boss than the madman that the dubya-cheney-rumsfeld axis wanted us to believe. He wasn’t completely open with the UN arms inspectors b/c he wanted to keep the Iranians (his enemies) guessing.

Now, to finish, how did Saddam get to achieve and stay in power for so long? After the Iranian revolution in 1979 (which brought down the anti-communist and US friend, the Shah), the Reagan administration thought it would be a good idea to support him to contain Iran. At the same time, in Soviet-invaded Afaganistan, the Reagan people thought it would be a great idea to fund and arm fanatics like Bin Laden to fight the communists. It’s interesting to see how us, in the name of fighting communism, have helped create something infinitely worse.

One lesson is that we should never let our leaders compromise with evil people abroad (even if they are enemies of our enemies). Another lesson is that we shouldn’t let our foreign policy be hijacked by special-interest groups at home.

[bgates]

Got it. Iraq was virtually crime free, because it was run by a mafia boss. You know there was little crime, because that’s “well-known,” not because there is any evidence you can cite. Now there is widespread organized crime, again unlike when the mafia boss was running things. You also know about the level of electricity production, somehow. Have you heard this from Iraqis? Or is it something ‘everyone’ knows?

Among the people who don’t think pre-war Iraq was covered very well is Eason Jordan, chief of CNN, who wrote in 2004:”Each time I visited, I became more distressed by what I saw and heard — awful things that could not be reported….” He didn’t seem to think the full truth of the pre-war environment was ‘well-known’. Maybe you have better sources than CNN used?

The Sunni and Shia had some degree of coexistence before. On the other hand, Saddam’s Sunni-dominated government killed between 70 and 230 thousand Shia and Kurds after the 1991 war, which I think qualifies as ‘sectarian violence’ (as does the Anfal campaign, which killed another 50-100 thousand Kurds.)

The fact that woefully ignorant people like you continue to slur our government with the unsupported and unsupportable accusations of lies probably helps our enemies’ propaganda. But they want to kill Americans anywhere they can; we’re just making sure the Americans closest to them are heavily armed.

The level of violence is still shockingly high. But it was shockingly high before the invasion. Another factor people like yourself never consider is that Saddam was mortal. If we hadn’t invaded and he died, would there have been no power struggle? Sectarian violence? Al quada trying to gain control? Of course all of those things would have happened, resulting in worse violence without us there to fight it.

And to finish. You claim Saddam was able to stay in power so long because of Reagan’s support. This must be another thing ‘everybody knows’, since that phrase apparently means “something I heard somewhere that is completely unsupported by evidence.” Wikipedia has data from the Stockholm International Peace Research Institute on arms sales to Iraq 1973-1990. Guess how much came from the US.

Go on, guess.

Half? Lower.

10%? Closer, but no.

1%? Still too high.

0.5% is their estimate. You might want to tell ‘everyone’ they’ve been giving you bad information (widely known bad information – Peter Bergen from CNN:
Various books and multiple news reports have charged that the CIA armed and trained the Afghan Arabs and even bin Laden himself as part of its operation to support the Afghan rebels fighting the Soviets in the 1980s. They argue, therefore, that the United States is culpable in the jihads and terrorism those militants subsequently spread around the world. As we shall see, those charges are overblown and are not supported by the evidence.

One lesson is you should try finding a couple facts before you post.

[PerryChase]

bgates, Diego, looks like we won’t have agreement here. History will be the judge.

Diego I agree with you. I was just watching Meet the Press with Vali Nasr and General Barry McCaffrey and it looks like the prognostic for Iraq is not bright. It’s interesting that McCaffrey was a Vietnam and Iraq Hawk but he’s learned for the mistakes and he now says that “the Iraq war could break the United States Army”

While the preponderance of historians have pretty much decided that the Vietnam War was a terrible catastrophe, I would guess that hawks such as bgates would continue to argue that it was a worthwhile cause that was tactically won but lost politically because of wimps like us.
If only custumers would buy Ford cars American manufacturing will be strong. If only people continue to buy real estate, we’ll all be rich.

I’m afraid that Iraq will sufer the same fate as Vietnam. Some people will never learn.

[hs]

“the Iraq war could break the United States Army”
I watched the same show. I was surprised that he made that comment. He sure sees farther than Bush and Cheney.

[bgates]

Perry – what changed?
On Aug 19, you said, “As far as Iraq is concerned, now that we’re already there, I say, tighten our belts, make real sacrifices, send 1 million troops and really fix the problem, or get out.” A day later, you want to give up.

Of course, the fact that you choose to start a post with the sentence “Diego I agree with you” right after I show why all of Diego’s points that weren’t a matter of opinion were factually insupportable suggests you’re not a serious person.

In comparing Iraq to Vietnam, you sound like John Kerry. In 1971, he estimated 3000 people might be driven from Vietnam if the Communists won. Drive up to Westminster (aka Little Saigon) and see if that number seems a little low. Once again people like you and Kerry think America can retreat from a fight with no adverse consequences. Yeah, some people never learn.

Last thing, your first post on this thread was supportive of Nixon because he made China “a friend.” In your last post, you put quote marks around a paraphrase of Gen McCaffrey’s comments. He said the diversion of money into ammunition and medical expenses has sapped the budget needed modernizing to face strategic threats in 10 to 20 years might mean the army ends up broken three years from now (Here’s the link ). The strategic threat he’s worried about? Your friend, China.

I’m done with this thread, so if you’d like to have the last word with another argument-free screed about how Bush is a criminal or I must think real estate is going up or my mother wears combat boots or something, feel free.

[carlislematthew]

I’m done with this thread, so if you’d like to have the last word with another argument-free screed about how Bush is a criminal or I must think real estate is going up or my mother wears combat boots or something, feel free.

Yeah, those “last word” people are awful. I’m happy your “I’m done with this thread” statement wasn’t intended to be a last word. That might have been a hypocritical statement…

[PD]

Carlislemattew’s post was a typical last word statement. It was a jab directed at bgates personally because carlislematthew has failed to refute bgates arguments.
Thank you, bgates, for your meaty posts. Everyone else is just shooting off the cuff but without anything substantive to back them up.

[Author]

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