Jimmy Carter on Bush and the Middle East

[bgates]

Not soon enough. But it would happen faster if the enemy was confronted with a united America, instead of thinking they can chase us out or outlast us.

Do you have a link to that Rumsfeld story?

[PerryChase]

bgates, I’m not happy that Iraq is devolving into a quagmire.

I don’t think that American policy will change until we’re confronted with what we created. I’ve learned that people will learn only when confronted with the results of their own mistakes.

There’s no point in arguing with someone who thinks that real estate is always a good investment. I would say to that person to keep on investing away, and stop trying to convince me that RE is a good investment. Go ahead and make all the money for yourself.

With Iraq, I disagreed from the beginning but my fellow citizens went for Bush. What I’m saying now is that Bush had 3 years to show results but so far it’s negative cash flow all around. How long can you keep on sinking money into that house that you thought would appreciate for sure? Eventually, it’ll bankrupt the household, cause a divorce or family discord.

The thing is that the bulls always need suckers born every minute to keep their ponzi scheme going. That’s why they’re always out and about evangelizing.

I think that, by their actions, the Europeans (and increasingly the Brits) are telling us: well if you think your so right, then keep on doing what you’re doing, but don’t ask us to fix it when it goes awry. Remember when Rumsfeld banned the French and Germans from contracts in Iraq. They have nothing to gain if things goes well and nothing to loose if things go south. So they’re just sitting by and watching the show.

I find it interesting that America co-sponsored the UN resolution on Lebanon. The French are sending 200 troops. We’re not sending any (maybe because they’re all stuck in Iraq).

The son of someone I know wanted to join the military last year but couldn’t join because he flunked out of high school. At that time the Army was desperate enough for recruits that they sponsored him to get his GED. He could then enlist after completing his GED (which he could not pass). Six months ago, the Army called him and said that the GED requirement was lifted so they sent him to boot camp. This example shows how desperate things are. A former general said that the war could break the Army. I think it already is.

[bgates]

Your point about the Lebanon resolution makes a different point to me. France has a historical relationship with Lebanon. It was the crown jewel of their middle eastern colonies. There is UN backing for foreign presence there – due to a resolution that France wrote.

Yet they can only find 200 troops to send? That will make no difference. If that’s all they had to contribute in Iraq, their support there would have been meaningless as well.

You think Iraq is getting worse; I think it’s getting better. I think Europe wants to see us hurt, and that’s the main reason they’re not committed. We should probably offer them a cut of the reconstruction in the hopes that their greed overcomes their anti-Americanism. What Europe has to lose, of course, is that Iraq as a failed state is susceptible to Iranian influence. The EU doesn’t want Iran to have nukes; they’ve been negotiating for over 3 years and have gotten nowhere.

Maybe they don’t know to open up diplomatic channels.

[PD]

Bgates, thank you for your thoughtful, rational, fact filled posts. Many posters here do not like Bush and do not like our policy but have nothing substantive to say when pressed. They respond by mocking Bush with anecdotes about public gaffs and college grades. Personal attacks on him are their only weapon, as they cannot offer any solutions. The Middle East is a hotbed of problems and has been for a very long time (long before GW came into office). PS thinks we can reason with terrorists and make them our friends. That is her solution, which is pure folly and betrays her lack of understanding of what makes radical Islam tick.
Throwing up our hands and quitting is not the solution. I am not sure that everything we have done was the right course, but being weak now in the face of difficulty gives them more power and hope that they can outlast us.
If we could go back and change what we have done in the last five years, would our present be any better or more secure? I doubt it. The Iraq war did not create the problem. Some will say that it exacerbated it, but I take issue with that. We have not had any major terrorist bombings (etc) here by outside extremists since 9/11. They are engaged elsewhere. This issue is long standing, extremely complex and a real and ongoing threat to the safety of our nation and citizens. Yet so many people want to quit, give up because it is hard. Then, when we have been hit by another 9/11, those very same quitters will be the first to point fingers and demand, “Why didn’t we do something!”

[ybc]

“Joe Darby’s cover was blown by Donald Rumsfeld”

http://www.abc.net.au/worldtoday/content/2006/s1716503.htm

Joe Darby is the soldier who submitted those prisoner abuse photos and requested to stay anonymous.

“MICHAEL ROWLAND: The whistle-blower has told of how he slept with a loaded pistol once the graphic images became public, as Charles Graner and the other soldiers implicated tried to discover the identity of the leaker.

In the end Joe Darby’s cover was blown by none other than Defence Secretary Donald Rumsfeld, and it happened in the worst possible circumstances.

Specialist Darby was eating lunch in an army mess hall with 400 other soldiers in may 2004, when Mr Rumsfeld appeared on an overhead TV and dropped his name.

From that point onwards Joe Darby’s life was never to be the same.”
———————–
PerryChase, I think that you speak with reason and wisdom, thanks!

I never cared much about politics but I did care about policies and their impacts on people’s lives. The policies of this administration (foreign, economy, science, environmental, etc) made me care about politics; because the damages from such bad policies will have long,long lasting impacts. Democracy is highjacked by a very skilled political machine right now; and this political machine and its frat boy head believes in ideology and it’s also incredulous imcompetent (Iraq, Katrina). Still, I think that the US will be resilient enough to come back, although the peak probably is over.

[VCJIM]

bgates,

There are many posters on here that are way more knowledgeable about world affairs and politics than me, including you. In a few of your posts, you claim that the US was supported in going into Iraq. I remember it differently; my recollection is that we did NOT have UN sanction or approval, although certainly some of our allies agreed that we needed should go in. In my opinion, invading Iraq without UN approval accomplishes two things:

1) Emaciates the U.N.
2) Makes thet U.S. look like the sole aggressor (invader), even if we had support from other countries.

Without U.N. approval and a multi-nation enter and exit strategy, the whole event is and was doomed to failure. As an American, I am embarrassed that we have invaded another country without U.N. sanctioning. I have traveled to many countries before and since entering Iraq, and I can say from anectdotal evidence that America is viewed as the unjustified aggressor.

[anxvariety]

It’s very interesting to me that his voters in the red states are low income rural folks who don’t benefit from his social policies (and whose children he’s sending to war). Why are they voting againts their interests?

White guilt..

[rocketman]

Irrational Exuberance is both manifested in politics and economics as illustrated here in this topic. People are creatures of elevating fear and status seeking without regard to cost. Case in point: Fear of terrorism and the fear of not be being included in home ownership are two examples of this same manifestation. Read Noam Chomsky’s views on the influence of corporate mass media and politics along with Robert Schiller’s views of consensus seeking belief systems, and the reasons for our predicament politically and economically are apparent.

I remember Osama Bin Laden wrote a letter to George W. Bush outlining the reasons for the Sept. 11 attacks. I couldn’t find the letter in any local newspaper, so I went to the Aljazeera website, and of course it was headline news. The letter stated that Bin Laden witnessed American attacks against his Muslim brothers and that he would retaliate someday which produced the destruction of the Twin Towers in New York. He also stated in the letter that his goal was to bankrupt America just like he and his fighters bankrupted the Soviet Union fighting an endless war in Afghanistan.

My paternal family has been in America since 1790. Most of the men in my family have been fighting in just wars since the war of 1812. I was personally involved in the Viet Nam war – not as infantry, but as a 1A0 medic. I didn’t believe in that war just as much as I don’t believe in the war in Iraq. Do I believe we should be in Afghanistan? No. Do I believe we should cut and run from Iraq? Yes. Mission accomplished – right? Time to move out and move on.

There have been a thousand years of conquering going on in Asia and especially in the Mesopotamia Valley. The British were the last ones to get there asses kicked. Volumes of books have been written of their mistakes in trying to create a democracy in a theocratic civilization. Had George Bush studied up a little on this subject? Where are all the think tanks of great intelligence advisors? AS an average guy I knew before one jet flew a sortie over Baghdad what the out come was going to be – urban gorilla war fare amongst civilians! Say, maybe I should be getting paid what all the consultants in DC are being paid. Obviously unless you go along with the agenda, you’re out.

Personally I lost my job in Florida at post dot.com boom and right before Sept. 11th. The economy was at a stand still for three years. Instead of pouring Federal funds into security and technology in America, Iraq and Haliburton became the beneficiaries of our Republican tax disposal. I finally had to bail out and move to SF to find work. Luckily the speculators started flipping houses in Florida and I walked out with twice as much as I paid for the house I mortgaged in matter of three years.

As far as a two party system in America:. I have to agree with powayseller. I have been a Democrat all my life but now I switching to Independent. I can’t stand either of the two parties.

Fear is what is generated to bred compliance and consensus amongst the masses. It’s been done many times in history. Government becomes a police state. Freedoms are overlooked in lieu of “Protecting our Security”. Sound familiar? Why don’t we just throw out the Constitution and start over? Have you been to a place where Bush is visiting lately? How about to demonstrate your opposition to the Iraq War? The last one I was at they kept demonstrators one mile away from any motor pool or facility he was to speak at. You couldn’t get close. He’s afraid to be seen in Public – anywhere. Check it out.

Re Terri Shiavo. I was in Florida when this story was unfolding. I couldn’t believe that the Republicans made such an effort to save a woman, who was examined by top medical experts, who had no chance of recovery, who left the decision to her best friend, lover and husband to do what was in her best interest. Then I saw pictures of hundreds of innocent children and parents killed in Iraq and being called untargeted “collateral” on CNN. I think of my son and daughter, who I would take a bullet for and wonder… What is this? A fu*king nightmare or what?

[VCJIM]

If one of my children were killed as “collateral damage” by an invading country, I would devote my life to causing that country’s political leaders severe bodily harm; this would be a purely emotional and uncontrollable response, carried out with laser-like precision and thought. Is it any wonder that our political leaders are under attack?

[ybc]

What the Brits are saying…
http://news.independent.co.uk/uk/politics/article1220089.ece

[bgates]

VCJIM, sorry if I gave you the impression I was claiming we had UN support. Bush asked for it, but it wasn’t given.

I think the UN is quite capable of emaciating itself. Case in point – France has decided to send just 200 troops to Lebanon, saying the “peacekeeping mandate is not explicit enough” – yet the mandate comes in a resolution which was written by France in the first place.

World opinion should not be ignored, but it shouldn’t just be obeyed either.

Why do you think the lack of UN blessing equals doom? The US ousted Milosevic with an aerial campagin that had no UN backing. In fact, the invasion of Afghanistan did not have formal UN support. Are you embarassed that we removed the Taliban from power?

There is no reason to think the war in Iraq is doomed. We haven’t lost. The enemy hasn’t won. The war is still going on. We’ve been in Iraq for 3 years trying to lift people who had been tyrranized for decades. In this country, terrorism against blacks continued for over 100 years past the end of slavery. Should we have given up after 3? 3 years after Pearl Harbor the Germans launched an offensive that killed 10,000 – three times more than have died in the entire Iraq campaign. Should FDR have given up? He had no exit strategy either. We’re still in Germany.

Finally, I’m curious about your anecdotes from overseas. I hear frequently from people I know in other countries that the US should act differently to improve its standing elsewhere. I’ve never told someone from another country that their government should change to suit us better. Have you? I’e never heard someone ask how their country could change to become closer to us. Have you? I understand the value of considering other points of view, but why is it always the US that should conform to another country, rather than them to us?

[PerryChase]

bgates, ever since the Monroe Doctrine, America has interfered around the world to shape it to our liking. We’ve resorted to some pretty awful ways to acheive our goals. I beleive that the world just wants us to leave them alone.

I want to best for America. I hope that the Bush way works because that’s what we’re operating by now. But my view is that it’s going down the wrong path.

You may beleive that real-estate is the best investment, but you don’t want to put all your eggs in one basket then keep on doubling down as things go south. That’s a receipe for disaster and bankruptcy. Sure you can end up wildly rich also but what are the odds of that happening?

[bgates]

Do you even know what the Monroe Doctrine was? It was a statement of opposition to European colonialism. We were telling Europe to leave the Americas alone.

What kind of interference bothered you most?

The Marshall Plan?
Protecting South Korea from Communist aggression?
Liberating Kuwait?
Our interference in WWI and II?

You want to compare our record to the Belgians in the Congo, France in Haiti and Africa, Britain in Ireland and India, Russia in eastern Europe, Japan in China, China in Tibet….You say we were pretty awful. Who was better?

[rankandfile]

If people like Perry were in power during WWII, all of Europe would be speaking German. It’s all greedy America’s fault, right? We should just hide behind our metal detectors and feel guilty for being successful. And the nations that want us to leave them alone are usually the first to bitch about us not doing anything when they get invaded or need financial aid. Hypocrites!

[Anonymous]

bgates,

Just curious, what do u know about China in Tibet?

[Author]

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