Foreign politics/policy discussions on this forum – a suggestion

[hs]

I am glad to see most people on this board have brains and use their brains to think. Unfortunately US president does not have a brain. He does whatever Cheney and Rumy tell him. Too bad he is surrounded by those arrogant and bully people.
Again, they are leading this country in the wrong direction.
Lostkitty, I am in the same boat as you are. I am glad we are out, too.

[PD]

Lickitysplit, thank you for your kind words. J

Farls, I will agree that diplomacy is better than war — the vast majority of the time. Sometimes diplomacy no longer works. Many countries have become adept at making threats about nuclear programs, taking our money or some other thing (like airplanes) in exchange for worthless promises, pretending for a short while that they have done as they promised, then they start rattling their saber again, we pay them off again… All the while they lie to us and continue doing exactly as they please. This is bribery and it seems to be quite effective – for them. It enriches places like North Korea and Iran while doing nothing to actually stop their march toward gaining nuclear weapons.

Lostkitty, while the US did use nuclear weapons sixty years ago, we are extremely unlikely to use them again, unless someone uses one against us first. There are plenty of other countries that are much, much more likely to use them first and start a nuclear war. Iran, with their extreme element, qualifies. Contrary to what you may be about to argue, President Bush would never, ever employ a preemptive nuclear strike.

Police wear weapons are their hip. Should every person, regardless of their criminal record be allowed to wear a gun on their hip? Would you be safe? Iran has a history of instability. Do you really think allowing them to have nuclear weapons is good for their neighbors, good for us, good for the world? Does anybody really believe that a nation rich in cheap energy (oil) would desire nuclear energy? Oil may be expensive for us to buy, but for a big oil producing country, it is cheap for them.

Does anyone really believe the Russia and China are not getting something out of the deal? PS points to Russia and China as “proof” that nothing untoward is going on. This is proof of nothing except, perhaps, collusion.

Lostkitty, I have been associated with the military for 20 years. In general, I have found an enormous amount of talented, good people. Like any organization, there will be people who should not have been promoted or should not have their current job. If your husband had to work for one of those people, that is unfortunate. It will probably happen again in the civilian world. It is true, however, that the military is hamstrung, to a certain degree, by an inability to immediately fire a person who is not performing.

As for all thinking people getting out, I am amazed at that statement. My husband has three masters degrees with honors. I think he qualifies as a “thinking person.” Perhaps you meant that people who disagree with our war in Iraq are getting out. I will agree with that statement. We live in a free country. Our military service is voluntary. There are some people who must wait, like your husband, because they knowingly and willingly agreed to stay in for a certain period of time in exchange for some other benefit. But when their time is up, they are allowed to get out (except during limited periods of stop loss).

As for foreigners going home, so what? I am sure there were a lot of Americans in France and Germany who have come home in the last few years.

Farls, what are the tax requirements of expatriates? Are you required to pay taxes but refuse? I really do not know the answer to this question and am interested in your response.

Farls, I also agree that Americans should travel the world more. Americans are very insular. I travel abroad whenever I can make it work. With small children and a husband with a very demanding job, it is very difficult to schedule.

[lostkitty]

Protesting IS supporting them.
Who better to speak up than the public when OUR elected officials lead us down the wrong path?
Should we blindly support them?
Stay mute?

The military is in Iraq unnecessarily.
They are bravely doing what they are told to do.
They are bravely doing what they were trained to do.
They are bravely risking their lives – and many have already given their lives – to their command.
However, they are not defending our freedom – in Iraq…
WE went after Iraq – not the other way around.
We are inciting further hatred and violence against us. Anti-American sentiment is swelling to bursting point… GLOBALLY!…

Just tell me how this is making me safer????? I certainly cant travel abroad as freely as before. My father said even his last trip to Africa was shockingly different then his trips pre-9/11. Resorts frequented by Americans are surrounded by heavily armed guards and barricades. Please tell me how I am safer today than I was before Iraq. I want to know.
There are entire websites dedicated to selling gear to make the American travellers look Canadian.

I am safer toay than I was before all this? Certainly not.

When this is all over I think we will start to hear the real conversations had between the top-military and the oval office regarding Iraq. Bits and pieces are already coming out.

Look at the polls on this issue. People are getting the proper information and CHANGING THEIR OPINIONS.. these are people who previously supported Bush and supported Iraq.

[Lickitysplit]

“Protesting IS supporting them.”
Funny, only the protesters actually believe this.

“Who better to speak up than the public when OUR elected officials lead us down the wrong path? Should we blindly support them? Stay mute?”
Agreed. It is your view of the path and how some choose to exercise their freedom of expression with which I disagree.

“The military is in Iraq unnecessarily. WE went after Iraq – not the other way around.”
See UN Resolution 1441 and the history (all 30 yrs) behind it.

“We are inciting further hatred and violence against us. Anti-American sentiment is swelling to bursting point… GLOBALLY!…Look at the polls on this issue. People are getting the proper information and CHANGING THEIR OPINIONS.. these are people who previously supported Bush and supported Iraq.”
Major western media, which votes overwhemingly Democrat, has been conducting its own “war” against the administration for years. State and CIA have assisted the media’s efforts (don’t have their voting patterns handy, but they are also highly Democrat, as is most of the public sector). Just how long can bad news bad news bad news be spewn before it affects the polls? I’m amazed it took as long as it did.

“Just tell me how this is making me safer????? I certainly cant travel abroad as freely as before. My father said even his last trip to Africa was shockingly different then his trips pre-9/11. Resorts frequented by Americans are surrounded by heavily armed guards and barricades. Please tell me how I am safer today than I was before Iraq. I want to know.”
Hmm… don’t blame the terrorists who deliberately target civilians (American, Iraqi, English, Spanish, Israeli, whatever), blame the people who have taken the fight to them. Interesting. I assume you are aware that Islamic terrorism and the deliberate targeting of civilians long predates the war in Iraq. I think the arguement can be made that the reason you aren’t as safe has much more to do with events of 10 yrs ago then now. There was a time when a single American casulaty by terrorism carried an aweful price. Then, for a number of years responses were symbolic at best. Jihadists question our resolve and our commitment.

[hs]

“As for all thinking people getting out, I am amazed at that statement.”

Nobody ever made this statement. You made it. You should be amazed by yourself.

[PD]

Great points, Liketysplit. It seems as though everyone is focused only on the events of today and completely ignore how we got here. This issue goes way back. For instance, the Iran hostage crisis happened over 25 years ago. In 1983 the US Embassy was bombed in Beirut, killing 63. A few months later the Marine barracks in Beirut were bombed killing 241 Marines. Areas heavy with Islamic extremists have been very unsafe for Americans for a very long time now.

HS, Lostkitty said, “Every thinking person got out.” Perhaps you missed it.

[lostkitty]

Actually hs, I did write that… I wrote:

“Every thinking person got out (gross generalization).” I was talking about during the years after the first Gulf war. I qualified it with the “(gross generalization)”. I was so true though… Top fit reps got out. The airlines were hiring. 6 month deployments gruelling. The guys who stayed were those that couldnt get hired by the airlines. Past DUI’s, poor fit reps, etc. etc. etc…

[hs]

“Every thinking person got out.” I have never used that sentence. It is your own interpretation. Again, YOU are the one who made that statement. You shouldn’t twist other people’s statements.

[PD]

Lostkitty, it is true that a lot aviators got out because the airlines were hiring. A lot of aviators have since tried to get back in when they lost their jobs. Many of them still fly for the reserves. A lot of people have gotten out because the deployment schedule is intense. That is true. However, there are a lot of great people with great fit reps who have stayed in. It is also very true that there are a lot of people with crappy fitness reports who got out because they knew they had no future. Your statement comes across as very self-congratulatory and elitist.

[hs]

Ok. PD. Sorry I did miss that line in lostkitty’s post.

[PD]

Hs, no problem. Sometimes I miss things too.

[powayseller]

I actually appreciate this thread. I don’t have strong military opinions, only questions. I dislike our foreign policy, which is based on OFFENSE. That’s what I dislike. I am learning from reading others’ viewpoints.

I would like to know why the US has targeted Iran as a threat, and not the other nuclear-power producing nations.

Why are we in Iraq? It was supposed to be WMD, but if they had them, they would have used them. None were found. Why not say, “Oops, sorry, we’ll go home now”. What is the REAL reason for invading Iraq?

Why is the war in Iraq so long and unusuccessful?

Should we have such a large military when we have to print dollars and increase our debt to fund them? After all,they don’t respond to threats, they’re pre-emptive and offensive oriented.

Why is is so hard for Bush to get along with Iran and Iraq? Other countries get along great with them, even trade with them.

I have no agenda other than wanting to learn.

[PD]

Carter, Reagan, Bush Sr, and Clinton were not on the best of terms with Iran either. They don’t like us. They have not liked us for decades (have they ever liked us?). Bush did not create the dislike. He has not made it any better, I’ll readily admit, but this situation did not magically appear when he was sworn into office.

The entire middleast issue is extraordinarily complex. The problems and issues go way back.

It is too bad that we were not able to keep all other countries from gaining nuclear weapons. But that is a pipe dream. Nuclear weapons equal power. It is best for the world to keep nuclear weapons and other WMD out of the hands of those people who will use them in a preemptive attack. We should slow the spread as much as we can, particularly in countries like Iran and North Korea.

Saddam Hussein used WMD when he gassed the Kurds. He had WMD in the past, Powayseller. WMD give the holder power and influence. I am certain that if he did not currently have any, he was trying to get them. He had them in the past. This is irrefutable.

You previously stated that if he had them, he would have used them. Not necessarily. He may have thought that we would fight for a while and then give up and go away. We did it before. He may have been counting on us doing exactly what you have suggested, give up. If he had used them, we would have found them for sure. It would have been a simple matter for him to squirrel them away in Syria. Plus, it would have been much harder for him to play the martyr if we had found them.

The war happened extremely fast. It took many of his units by surprise and left them in chaos. The Iraqis had fighter jets. They did not use them. They sat on the ground. There weren’t any dogfights over Baghdad.

Do I have incontrovertible proof that he had WMD on Iraqi soil when we started Operation Iraqi Freedom? No. Do you have irrefutable proof that he did not have WMD? No. Stalemate.

[bgates]

Lostkitty, according to your link, the list of countries that have nukes is: US, UK, France, Russia, China, India, and Pakistan, with Israel listed as an undeclared nuclear power. It must be an old link, b/c the list of suspected nuclear powers has Libya and Iraq in addition to North Korea and Iran. (Iraq of course has now given up its program, as did Libya coincidentally at the time we invaded Iraq – funny, that.) Which are the fanatics? Bush is a religious man who will leave office when his term is up. He’s fanatical about his exercise program, but that’s it.

It’s a fair point to ask why we should get to decide who has nukes. The alternative is to allow nukes in the hands of those who would kill us. If our desire for safety offends others, I think that’s a price we have to pay.

Killing and quality of life are of course not worse than under Saddam. They are more widely reported. The violence, while regrettable, was inevitable. Saddam was eventually going to die; when that happened, the Islamists would move in, Iran would move in, former regime forces would try to hold on…everything that is happening now, but without Americans trying to midwife the birth of a democracy.

There is too much federal spending, though it’s not as bad as you claim (as % of GDP, which is a better way to measure it than nominal dollars). But spending money to rescue people from totalitarianism is the best use of our money from a security and moral standpoint.

[zk]

LS, I don’t think your point is made. You thank the two people who seem to generally agree with your politics for taking the high road, when at least one of them (maybe you haven’t read all her posts) definitely has at least occasionally strayed from the high road.

Except for one slightly condescending comment from one poster, I don’t see any comments in this thread that indicate that “some are simply unable of showing common courtesy towards viewpoints differing from their own, and frequently go on to trashing individuals or groups that personally insults well-intentioned members of this online community.”

That said, this is a real estate forum, and yes, we should probably take our political debate elsewhere. As I said, I’ll have a link here within a few days to a site where we can freely debate politics if we want. Hope you join us, LS.

[Author]

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