The dire climate of CA public university admissions for freshmen

[an]

[quote=bearishgurl][quote=AN][quote=bearishgurl]I vote that CA re-institute the writing portion on the SAT, ACT and TOEFL and apply the applicant’s essay/writing score to their composite score.

This is how it was done when I took the ACT … way back in the day.

This would most certainly weed out thousands of Chinese applicants, who would fail this portion miserably, causing their composite scores to plummet.

Too bad … so sad.[/quote]
LoL, in your dreams.[/quote]

So, AN, are you saying here that you don’t think the essay portion of the SAT/ACT will ever be brought back into consideration for admission into the UC/CSU?[/quote]I’m saying that Asian dominated the UC admittance as soon as they remove Affirmative Action, even with essay. If they bring back essay, Asian will still dominate the admittance %. You don’t have to look any further than at the HS level. Which group score the highest in standardize testing, have the highest GPA, etc.

[Coronita]

[quote=bearishgurl][quote=flu][quote=bearishgurl]I vote that CA re-institute the writing portion on the SAT, ACT and TOEFL and apply the applicant’s essay/writing score to their composite score.

This is how it was done when I took the ACT … way back in the day.

This would most certainly weed out thousands of Chinese applicants, who would fail this portion miserably, causing their composite scores to plummet.

Too bad … so sad.[/quote]

So you took the ACT back then for college and you think you did better than most foreigners. So how did college work out for you BG?[/quote]Yeah, I took it … and scored a 31. I was admitted to CU – Boulder as well as Cal. But I didn’t end up attending university as it turned out to be too expensive for me and I had no one to help. It turned out my parent made $940 too much in my junior year of HS (their latest tax return) for me to qualify for a “BEOG grant” (nka “Pell Grant”) as a freshman (which was only worth ~$2K year anyway, and would not have been enough to help with room/board). Student loans did not exist at that time as they do today.

I elected to work FT right out of HS and go to state college in the city where I lived and worked. I ended up never graduating from CC after attending 4 state colleges/CCs in two states (one class at a time but not every semester) over a period of about 15 years, all while working FT. But most of my classes were occupational and did help me on the job, so they weren’t wasted. I then got a paralegal certificate (1 yr 500-level program) later in life. I was the only one in my program who did not have a bachelor degree but was admitted based upon atty recommendations from my long work record in the field.

Back then, US university seats occupied by foreign students were of mostly males from oil-rich middle eastern countries who were majoring in engineering. Yes, their fathers paid the full ride for them to attend US universities such as OU (petroleum engineering), CU Boulder and Cal, including renting them nice local apts or even houses for off-campus housing. These families didn’t waste money on a daughter’s education because females in those countries were brought up to be oppressed, covered up and subservient to men. The US didn’t have the influx of Asian university students as there is today. The few foreign students attending US universities were nearly all middle-eastern males.

My personal experience and the fact that CA CC’s are no longer funded well enough to guarantee a student the correct classes to transfer to a UC/CSU in 2 years (or even guarantee them admission into a UC/CSU at all) are the reasons why I pushed my kids directly into university (out of county) after HS. It was the right choice. In CA, it’s MUCH easier to get accepted as a freshman straight out of HS than it is as an incoming junior out of CC (ESP if your parent(s) elect to NOT file a FAFSA). My kid(s) are successful and my youngest is on their way to being successful in life.[/quote]

I’m not even going to bother to read most of what you said her because, let’s face it you’re a racist. If were were talking about an influx of germans or french or italian or canadian, you wouldn’t give a shit.

I find it ironic that someone who prides herself on who well she did on one ACT test yet never bothered to finish college would be talking smack about immigrants that have finished college and frankly have done better to further themselves.

Excuse after excuse. I’ve heard that before. I’ve cold hve done better, I’ve could have done this.

Well, the point is, you didn’t. End of discussion.

[bearishgurl]

[quote=AN][quote=bearishgurl][quote=AN][quote=bearishgurl]I vote that CA re-institute the writing portion on the SAT, ACT and TOEFL and apply the applicant’s essay/writing score to their composite score.

This is how it was done when I took the ACT … way back in the day.

This would most certainly weed out thousands of Chinese applicants, who would fail this portion miserably, causing their composite scores to plummet.

Too bad … so sad.[/quote]
LoL, in your dreams.[/quote]

So, AN, are you saying here that you don’t think the essay portion of the SAT/ACT will ever be brought back into consideration for admission into the UC/CSU?[/quote]I’m saying that Asian dominated the UC admittance as soon as they remove Affirmative Action, even with essay. If they bring back essay, Asian will still dominate the admittance %. You don’t have to look any further than at the HS level. Which group score the highest in standardize testing, have the highest GPA, etc.[/quote]Yeah, IIRC, the essay was removed in the early 2000’s?

You’re speaking of Asian Americans … who went to HS in the US and I’m talking about Chinese students who get student visas to attend university in the US. They still have to be admitted on the basis of their SAT/ACT score and even possibly TOEFL score.

[FlyerInHi]

BG, why do you focus on Chinese student? Out of state, meaning out of California students pay full tuition at UC. Same concept for the rest of the Union.

[bearishgurl]

[quote=AN] . . . I find it ironic that someone who prides herself on who well she did on one ACT test yet never bothered to finish college would be talking smack about immigrants that have finished college and frankly have done better to further themselves.

Excuse after excuse. I’ve heard that before. I’ve cold hve done better, I’ve could have done this.

Well, the point is, you didn’t. End of discussion.[/quote]flu asked, but our discussion really has nothing to do with me. I never said, shoulda, woulda, coulda … I have no regrets.

The reality is that back in “my day,” the only people that went to college out of HS were those who could afford it. And that was +/- 15% of HS graduates. The only reason a higher percentage of HS graduates attend college now is because more financial aid as well as student loans are available to them.

I don’t begrudge the “middle eastern males” who were the bulk of foreign students back then. I wasn’t an engineering student and their presence wasn’t affecting my ability to get an education. They paid the OOS tuition and that’s just who it happened to be at the time.

I’m not bragging about my ACT results. Flu asked about it so I answered. That 31 ACT score and my good looks won’t even buy me a cup of black coffee today. And it wasn’t worth anything to me then since I was unable to use it.

You seem to have some kind of a chip on your shoulder, AN, and you shouldn’t, because you’re an American.

Yes, I will admit that I would like to see more CA HS graduates get admitted to a public in-state university … preferably as close to “home” as possible so they won’t have to pay for room and board. I think its really depressing how many CA HS grads are actually admitted to UC/CSU, even after applying to 4+ campuses. It’s not fair that possibly ~108,500 slots are “given away” to OOS/OOC applicants when our own kids can’t even transfer out of CC as a junior with a ~3.6 GPA. It’s wrong and immoral and I don’t know of any other state which does this at the expense of their own natives and residents. You’ve got young kids who will someday want to apply to UC/CSU so you should be concerned about this issue, as well.

[bearishgurl]

[quote=FlyerInHi]BG, why do you focus on Chinese student? Out of state, meaning out of California students pay full tuition at UC. Same concept for the rest of the Union.[/quote]Mostly Asians are representing foreign public university students in CA BUT my beef applies to out of state of all races as well. It really isn’t a “race issue.” It’s a “resident issue.” These groups SHOULD be held to higher admission standards than in-state students and they used to be but their admission criteria was apparently “dumbed down” around 2008 in order for the UC to get their money.

Read the articles and the report.

[Coronita]

[quote=flu][quote=bearishgurl][quote=flu][quote=bearishgurl]I vote that CA re-institute the writing portion on the SAT, ACT and TOEFL and apply the applicant’s essay/writing score to their composite score.

This is how it was done when I took the ACT … way back in the day.

This would most certainly weed out thousands of Chinese applicants, who would fail this portion miserably, causing their composite scores to plummet.

Too bad … so sad.[/quote]

So you took the ACT back then for college and you think you did better than most foreigners. So how did college work out for you BG?[/quote]Yeah, I took it … and scored a 31. I was admitted to CU – Boulder as well as Cal. But I didn’t end up attending university as it turned out to be too expensive for me and I had no one to help. It turned out my parent made $940 too much in my junior year of HS (their latest tax return) for me to qualify for a “BEOG grant” (nka “Pell Grant”) as a freshman (which was only worth ~$2K year anyway, and would not have been enough to help with room/board). Student loans did not exist at that time as they do today.

I elected to work FT right out of HS and go to state college in the city where I lived and worked. I ended up never graduating from CC after attending 4 state colleges/CCs in two states (one class at a time but not every semester) over a period of about 15 years, all while working FT. But most of my classes were occupational and did help me on the job, so they weren’t wasted. I then got a paralegal certificate (1 yr 500-level program) later in life. I was the only one in my program who did not have a bachelor degree but was admitted based upon atty recommendations from my long work record in the field.

Back then, US university seats occupied by foreign students were of mostly males from oil-rich middle eastern countries who were majoring in engineering. Yes, their fathers paid the full ride for them to attend US universities such as OU (petroleum engineering), CU Boulder and Cal, including renting them nice local apts or even houses for off-campus housing. These families didn’t waste money on a daughter’s education because females in those countries were brought up to be oppressed, covered up and subservient to men. The US didn’t have the influx of Asian university students as there is today. The few foreign students attending US universities were nearly all middle-eastern males.

My personal experience and the fact that CA CC’s are no longer funded well enough to guarantee a student the correct classes to transfer to a UC/CSU in 2 years (or even guarantee them admission into a UC/CSU at all) are the reasons why I pushed my kids directly into university (out of county) after HS. It was the right choice. In CA, it’s MUCH easier to get accepted as a freshman straight out of HS than it is as an incoming junior out of CC (ESP if your parent(s) elect to NOT file a FAFSA). My kid(s) are successful and my youngest is on their way to being successful in life.[/quote]

I’m not even going to bother to read most of what you said her because, let’s face it you’re a racist. If were were talking about an influx of germans or french or italian or canadian, you wouldn’t give a shit.

I find it ironic that someone who prides herself on who well she did on one ACT test yet never bothered to finish college would be talking smack about immigrants that have finished college and frankly have done better to further themselves.

Excuse after excuse. I’ve heard that before. I’ve cold hve done better, I’ve could have done this.

Well, the point is, you didn’t. End of discussion.[/quote]

BG, while you’re at it, why not just say the rest, along your line of thinking…

1. There are too many blacks in the NBA
2. There are too many jews that work on Wall Street and/or are doctors.
3. There are too many indians that work in tech
4. There are too many latinos working in healthcare.

Seems to be along the same line of reasoning….

But I really have to thank Trump for bringing out all of this closet/bottled feelings. Because obviously, now that the potentially highest leader in the nation says it’s ok to think this way, I finally get to see how a lot of people really are in the real world, long enough to make mental notes, and stay the fvck away and have nothing to do with any of these people in the real world.

Because, obviously the mexicans are stealing all your entitlement benefits and low paying jobs. All the asians and indians are stealing your spots in the best universities and high paid jobs. And well, shit, since it is completely logial for someone to be cross shopping low skill/day laborer jobs and high tech jobs at the same time on dice.com, so damn those mexicans and asians and indians for stealing my bottom of the tier and top of the tier jobs.

Because obviously it’s them, my personal life choices and personal decisions I made throughout my life had absolutely nothing to do with why I can’t get ahead (end sarcasm)

Goodbye “Hope And Change” Obama….

Hello, “Hope and Blame” Trump…..

‘Umerica

[bearishgurl]

[quote=flu]1. There are too many blacks in the NBA
2. There are too many jews that work on Wall Street and/or are doctors.
3. There are too many indians that work in tech
4. There are too many latinos working in healthcare.

Seems to be along the same line of reasoning….[/quote]There you go, playing the “race card,” again. You DO know the difference between residents and non-residents, right? Don’t you want your kid to be able to get into a UC when the time comes? How would you like to find out that she can’t get admitted with her 4.22 GPA, 1680 SAT score (sans the essay) and IB Diploma all because the Regents decided to let in 300,000 or even 500,000 out-of-state and/or foreign students ….. for the $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$, of course.

That’s where this was all headed …. until the audit.

We’ll see if any “reforms” actually come of it.

You should be concerned as well. It’s truly a jungle out there for the CA HS senior and I am so, so glad my youngest is on track to graduate in two years.

Disclaimer: My own kids did not apply to UC, only CSU.

[bearishgurl]

[quote=flu] . . . But I really have to thank Trump for bringing out all of this closet/bottled feelings. Because obviously, now that the potentially highest leader in the nation says it’s ok to think this way, I finally get to see how a lot of people really are in the real world, long enough to make mental notes, and stay the fvck away and have nothing to do with any of these people in the real world.

Because, obviously the mexicans are stealing all your entitlement benefits and low paying jobs. All the asians and indians are stealing your spots in the best universities and high paid jobs. And well, shit, since it is completely logial for someone to be cross shopping low skill/day laborer jobs and high tech jobs at the same time on dice.com, so damn those mexicans and asians and indians for stealing my bottom of the tier and top of the tier jobs.

Because obviously it’s them, my personal life choices and personal decisions I made throughout my life had absolutely nothing to do with why I can’t get ahead (end sarcasm)

Goodbye “Hope And Change” Obama….

Hello, “Hope and Blame” Trump…..

‘Umerica[/quote]flu, if you’ll look back thru old threads, we’ve discussed this issue ad nauseaum. You’ve discussed it probably more than anyone else, even stating that you will consider changing your kid’s last name on their college apps to see if that gets her an advantage in admissions. (Honestly, I don’t see how, due to “affirmative action” not being used anymore by admission boards.)

I think I just posted a long diatribe the other day about why I switched to R so I could vote R in the primaries (at the time I registered, my preferred candidate, Cruz, was still in the running). As I recall, the jist of the whole long, sordid post was that I was sick to death of people playing the “victim” card and claiming that all of their problems today are due to the big bad “system” instead of their own stupidity and mishandling of their own finances, health, kids, families … everything.

I believe in personal responsibility but realize that a lot of people today would rather have a handout instead of a leg up. I’d like to have hope that Trump (who is now left in the race) is going to make changes that improve Americans’ lives downstream but realize that he (or any president, for that matter) is going to need a village of competent people (who actually know what they are doing) to make that happen.

As a practically lifelong Dem, I’m not averse to changing my affiliation back to D … or Independent this summer, depending on how the primaries turn out.

Now, this post sounds like you’re apathetic, flu. Do you plan to vote in the general election??

[an]

[quote=bearishgurl][quote=AN] . . . I find it ironic that someone who prides herself on who well she did on one ACT test yet never bothered to finish college would be talking smack about immigrants that have finished college and frankly have done better to further themselves.

Excuse after excuse. I’ve heard that before. I’ve cold hve done better, I’ve could have done this.

Well, the point is, you didn’t. End of discussion.[/quote]flu asked, but our discussion really has nothing to do with me. I never said, shoulda, woulda, coulda … I have no regrets.

The reality is that back in “my day,” the only people that went to college out of HS were those who could afford it. And that was +/- 15% of HS graduates. The only reason a higher percentage of HS graduates attend college now is because more financial aid as well as student loans are available to them.

I don’t begrudge the “middle eastern males” who were the bulk of foreign students back then. I wasn’t an engineering student and their presence wasn’t affecting my ability to get an education. They paid the OOS tuition and that’s just who it happened to be at the time.

I’m not bragging about my ACT results. Flu asked about it so I answered. That 31 ACT score and my good looks won’t even buy me a cup of black coffee today. And it wasn’t worth anything to me then since I was unable to use it.

You seem to have some kind of a chip on your shoulder, AN, and you shouldn’t, because you’re an American.

Yes, I will admit that I would like to see more CA HS graduates get admitted to a public in-state university … preferably as close to “home” as possible so they won’t have to pay for room and board. I think its really depressing how many CA HS grads are actually admitted to UC/CSU, even after applying to 4+ campuses. It’s not fair that possibly ~108,500 slots are “given away” to OOS/OOC applicants when our own kids can’t even transfer out of CC as a junior with a ~3.6 GPA. It’s wrong and immoral and I don’t know of any other state which does this at the expense of their own natives and residents. You’ve got young kids who will someday want to apply to UC/CSU so you should be concerned about this issue, as well.[/quote]
You quoted the wrong person.

[bearishgurl]

[quote=AN]You quoted the wrong person.[/quote]How so?

[enron_by_the_sea]

[quote=bearishgurl]Mostly Asians are representing foreign public university students in CA BUT my beef applies to out of state of all races as well. It really isn’t a “race issue.” It’s a “resident issue.” These groups SHOULD be held to higher admission standards than in-state students and they used to be but their admission criteria was apparently “dumbed down” around 2008 in order for the UC to get their money.
[/quote]

If your beef is with out of state students of all races, then why your original message only talks about preventing “Chinese” students? Were you also expecting those English essays to stop enrollment of students from other states? or prevent someone applying from Canada or Western Europe?

I don’t think your concerns (about UCs admitting too many out of state/foreign students) are not valid, but you need to recognize that your motivation behind designing a system that only screen out applicants from China, strikes some of us as insensitive. (And it would not work any way because foreign students have excellent English skills too. You need to travel abroad some time!)

Asians are already very suspicious of college admissions processes, which many feel are covertly discriminatory against them. Your proposal unfortunately only feeds into that narrative of hidden/unwritten biases against asians in the system of college admissions….

[bearishgurl]

[quote=enron_by_the_sea][quote=bearishgurl]Mostly Asians are representing foreign public university students in CA BUT my beef applies to out of state of all races as well. It really isn’t a “race issue.” It’s a “resident issue.” These groups SHOULD be held to higher admission standards than in-state students and they used to be but their admission criteria was apparently “dumbed down” around 2008 in order for the UC to get their money.
[/quote]

If your beef is with out of state students of all races, then why your original message only talks about preventing “Chinese” students? Were you also expecting those English essays to stop enrollment of students from other states? or prevent someone applying from Canada or Western Europe?

I don’t think your concerns (about UCs admitting too many out of state/foreign students) are not valid, but you need to recognize that your motivation behind designing a system that only screen out applicants from China, strikes some of us as insensitive. (And it would not work any way because foreign students have excellent English skills too. You need to travel abroad some time!)

Asians are already very suspicious of college admissions processes, which many feel are covertly discriminatory against them. Your proposal unfortunately only feeds into that narrative of hidden/unwritten biases against asians in the system of college admissions….[/quote]Enron, I didn’t design that essay portion of the SAT/ACT. It’s been there along along and the UC/CSU haven’t used it in a number of years to factor into the admission tests composite scores (not sure if they both stopped using it at the same time or different years).

We have to ask ourselves what would be a good reason NOT to use the essay portion if the UC/CSU truly wanted the best candidates for admission. Wouldn’t they WANT to see if an applicant can write a coherent paragraph and spell and punctuate? Why did they remove it from consideration in the application process? Could it possibly be that they wanted to make it easier for applicants to get admitted for whom English was not their first language? As in a foreign student, who will pay the full tuition rate to attend?

The truth is that Chinese students are the biggest group of foreign students that the UC admits and their parents come here in droves for the sole purpose of buying condos near certain UC campuses when their child is just five years old! The unit is purchased solely for the purpose of using it for student housing for that kid WHEN, not IF he/she will finally attend university there. The parents are that certain their child will be admitted into THAT campus. The presence of the essay on the ACT/SAT could slow down admissions of OOC students from all countries where English is not the spoken language. Hence, it is now gone.

Yes, OOC and OOS students pay the same out-of-state tuition and so the UC is at fault for admitting way too many of BOTH groups at the expense of the thousands of qualified in-state resident-applicants who are CA HS graduates. Especially when the vast majority of them cannot afford to attend an out-of-state or private college themselves.

I don’t understand why bringing back the essay would sound “insensitive” to an Asian American who was born in the US and schooled in the US. Their kid(s) will want to one day apply to UC/CSU as well. Every resident-parent and their student of every race in CA is in the same boat. Most of us want our kids to be admitted to a UC/CSU. Why should we support the UC “gumming up the works” by handing out seats right and left to non-residents, causing our own kids to be turned down for admission … even if they have stellar qualifications?

Who does this to this degree? Certainly, no other state that I’m aware of. Why does CA “owe” the rest of the country and world admission into its universities when it can’t even serve anywhere near enough of its own thousands of highly-qualified in-state applicants by doing so?

[an]

[quote=bearishgurl][quote=AN]You quoted the wrong person.[/quote]How so?[/quote]
Because I didn’t type the things you quoted.

[no_such_reality]

On going education is expensive and, IMO, education and state employee unions are the new millitary industrial complex.

The UC system is a giant complex beast, running a several notable hospitals, a few national labs and the campuses with research arms.

They make a lot of money, they cost a lot of money. CSU system costs a fair amount too. State spending, not school spending per student is $11251 for UC and $6799 for CSU.

It’s way down compared to the much lower admission rate days of the 70s and 80s.

As for admissions, qualified is meaningless. High schools like Uni high in Irvine crank out 1/3rd of the kids in AP glasses and 48 perfect SATs. The other Irvine schools aren’t far behind. Nor the other geared to succeed schools in OC.

So we are at a crux, do quadruple the funding to 80s level for the number of students being pushed to college or do we further restrict the number of enrollment?

JMHO, but UC didn’t become great by being high school part deux.

Our primary education system is broken. Kids are graduating high school and struggle to do more than basic arithmetic. Pick up and CC schedule and look at the prequal courses, they’re not for “returning adults”. Yet they’re enrolling in college because they need to. Because businesses want college degrees to be a paper shuffler.

[quote=bearishgurl]

The story below is ridiculous. By all accounts, this applicant should have gotten accepted into the UC … yes, even to the “flagships.” Perhaps she was only offered Merced for being in the top 9% of her class and elected to take the 4-year full-ride scholarship offered to her on the east coast … and I don’t blame her. She’s apparently “good enough for full ride at an Ivy” … but not given the time of day at UC in her home state!

As a student at South Pasadena High School, Katherine Uriarte aced six Advanced Placement classes, got top scores on her ACT, served in student government and nailed a summer internship at Caltech.

It wasn’t enough to get into UCLA or UC Berkeley.

The daughter of a Mexican immigrant, Uriarte still realized her dream of becoming the first in her family to go to college. She is now a freshman at Columbia University in New York City with a full-ride scholarship from the Bill & Melinda Gates Foundation. But she said she felt Californians like herself were losing out to a growing tide of students from other states and countries who want to go to UC schools.
/[/quote]

[Author]

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