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flyer.
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May 18, 2016 at 3:58 PM #797717May 18, 2016 at 4:09 PM #797718
carli
ParticipantFunny that everyone is assuming he’ll do something related to his degree. I was an English major, and the furthest thing from my mind was becoming a teacher. I realize times have changed but industries are not so specific these days that there won’t be room for a go-getter with a sociology degree to make a way for himself in many different areas.
Also, BG, although he may end up in SoCal someday, I don’t think his priority is to make a life for himself around here. It’s to go out and experience the world. I spent most of my career (and his childhood) in NYC, as an English major with a lucrative career in executive sales management, and who knows, he could end up following a similar path, even with a sociology degree.
May 18, 2016 at 4:51 PM #797720flyer
ParticipantDaniel Kahneman, Nobel Prize winner and author of Thinking, Fast and Slow, posits that “Happiness is being happy in your life, and life satisfaction is being happy about your life.”
He, and many others in the know, consistently mention that, having goals and direction in life is essential for life satisfaction, and that is what seems to be so clearly lacking for many young people we’ve known who seem rather lost after graduating from college.
Like many parents, although we could have handed our kids everything, we encouraged them to develop not only their passions, but also helped them discover a clear path to their goals.
(Example–Both of Larry Ellison’s kids have great careers, in fact, my wife has worked on film projects with his daughter, who is a producer.)We also encouraged them to work on their lives as if they had no safety net to fall back on, and I think that cultivating all of these elements made a huge difference in the level of success/satisfaction/happiness they experienced right out of college.
Everyone is different, but the proof for us has come in the form of how well our kids lives turned out, so we’re very grateful our plan seems to have worked.
May 18, 2016 at 5:11 PM #797722bearishgurl
Participant[quote=carli]Funny that everyone is assuming he’ll do something related to his degree. I was an English major, and the furthest thing from my mind was becoming a teacher. I realize times have changed but industries are not so specific these days that there won’t be room for a go-getter with a sociology degree to make a way for himself in many different areas.
Also, BG, although he may end up in SoCal someday, I don’t think his priority is to make a life for himself around here. It’s to go out and experience the world. I spent most of my career (and his childhood) in NYC, as an English major with a lucrative career in executive sales management, and who knows, he could end up following a similar path, even with a sociology degree.[/quote]I just saw the “social justice platform” of UCLA’s “Center X” and thought it would appeal to him. I checked and it IS expensive (~32K for 2 years, incl course mat’ls). However, even if someone had to borrow the $32K to complete the program, they could take out a Federal Direct Student Loan or Stafford Loan because they would most certainly be able to get a local teaching gig from this prestigious program, possibly even at the school they did their student-teaching at. I didn’t realize that LAUSD had many non-certified and/or non-credentialed teachers (due to lack of credentialed applicants?) and were hurting for credentialed teachers. Once ensconced in a permanent teaching job in the fall after graduation, the new teacher’s student loan payments would begin. They could then immediately apply for (and receive) an affordable payment in the “Teacher Loan Forgiveness Program.”
https://studentaid.ed.gov/sa/repay-loans/forgiveness-cancellation/teacher#teacher-loan-forgiveness
The new teacher would need to make those monthly payments on time for just ten years (120 payments) and the balance their Federal student loan(s) (of up to $17,500) would be forgiven, due to accepting and working in a K-12 teaching position.
If the new teacher decides to accept a teaching position in a public school with a mostly “underserved” population and/or teaches certain needed subjects, they can be eligible for a SL payment deferment AND an eventual full cancellation (100%) in just five years of a Federal Perkins Loan taken out to obtain their credential!
What amount can be canceled?
If you are eligible for cancellation under any of the categories listed above, up to 100 percent of the loan may be canceled for teaching service, in the following increments:
15 percent canceled per year for the first and second years of service
20 percent canceled for the third and fourth years
30 percent canceled for the fifth yearEach amount canceled per year includes the interest that accrued during the year.
(emphasis mine)
https://studentaid.ed.gov/sa/repay-loans/forgiveness-cancellation/teacher#teacher-cancellation
I can see why so many CA teaching-credential candidates are trying to get thru the program in 12-18 months at National University, Pt Loma Nazarene and some of the other private credentialing institutions. They are expensive but the candidate earns one class per month and is placed in a student-teacher gig after their first 12 mos in the program. These teacher-candidates, even if low income, can borrow the money and be guaranteed a low, manageable repayment plan for ten years, with the balance forgiven. My kids’ Elem and HS District hired SEVERAL teachers for my kids’ public schools from Nat’l University’s credentialing program who student taught at my kids’ schools. Some of them were themselves graduates of a HS in the District or even the same school as they student-taught in!
UCLA’s public school teaching program looks very interesting. I like the platform. If we could just get rid of “common core” (not in place when my own kids were in school) and replace it with methods that “fit” the particular student population (as it always was and should be), teachers and schools would be a lot more successful with student outcomes, IMO.
May 18, 2016 at 5:43 PM #797724ParticipantFlyer, I’m not sure what you mean by you’ve encouraged your kids to develop their passion and discover a clear path to their goals. That’s what all supportive parents do. But it’s a stretch to imply that the way to ensure happiness is to have a clear direction upon college graduation. Also depends on what your definition of “lost” is…a kid who graduates from college without having a specific career in mind may not feel lost but rather open to exciting options. It’s all in the perspective. There’s no question that someone probably won’t be happy or successful by forever wandering aimlessly through life, but that’s not what we’re talking about.
Not taking anything away from you or your kids, who have all apparently discovered their passions early on, but there are way more examples of uber successful (and presumably happy) people who either stumbled upon something or tried various paths until they found their exact passion or direction as they went along.
This discussion reminds me of the question of which is better, a broad liberal arts education or a more purpose-driven STEM education? It could be argued either way and there is value in each. Both can produce extremely happy and successful people in any field. There’s not a one-size-fits-all formula, and it puzzles me when people insist that the path they’ve taken to success and happiness is the path everyone should take.
May 18, 2016 at 5:44 PM #797723Participant[quote=flyer]Daniel Kahneman, Nobel Prize winner and author of Thinking, Fast and Slow, posits that “Happiness is being happy in your life, and life satisfaction is being happy about your life.”
He, and many others in the know, consistently mention that, having goals and direction in life is essential for life satisfaction, and that is what seems to be so clearly lacking for many young people we’ve known who seem rather lost after graduating from college.
Like many parents, although we could have handed our kids everything, we encouraged them to develop not only their passions, but also helped them discover a clear path to their goals.
(Example–Both of Larry Ellison’s kids have great careers, in fact, my wife has worked on film projects with his daughter, who is a producer.)We also encouraged them to work on their lives as if they had no safety net to fall back on, and I think that cultivating all of these elements made a huge difference in the level of success/satisfaction/happiness they experienced right out of college.
Everyone is different, but the proof for us has come in the form of how well our kids lives turned out, so we’re very grateful our plan seems to have worked.[/quote]Agree, flyer. I look at Trump’s kids (yeah, all five of them) and have heard all the bad press re: his former and current spouses being “gold-diggers” and all the “philandering stories” about Trump, ad nauseam. But at the end of the day, those parents (all four of them), must have done something right. Their kids have had every opportunity in life to easily be able to:
get kicked out of HS/Prep School for misconduct;
flunk out of college;
get repeatedly arrested for DUI (like other socialites and celebs we all know);
get busted for possession of liquor as well as “open container” as minors (Bush twins);
party heartily constantly in public watering holes and enter and exit vehicles with short skirts and no underwear on, with the paps following in close proximity;
show off (under the influence?) by running into stop signs and up on urban sidewalks with their Hummers;
taking a revolving door in and out of detox and rehab clinics and “resorts” (to numerous to mention here); and,
show up even at the grocery store with see-thru outfits on and breasts hanging out everywhere to gain attention, again with the paps tailing them, etc.
NONE of the Trump kids are like that. They ALL dress respectfully and act respectful and gracious in public. And all three ADULTS WORK FT in the family biz (and in their own biz pursuits, as well) and ALWAYS HAVE since graduating from college! (The fourth one just graduated from college a couple of days ago and will undoubtedly be put to work soon.) The young boy does not go out in public without a suit on, listens to his mother, has wonderful manners and and does not act up to get attention. Together, they look and act like an exemplary and supportive family to the patriarch, demonstrating behavior befitting of White House occupants (although most of them will not live there). They can all talk it, walk it and groom it on schedule and with ease.
If Trump gets elected, he has the built-in “royal family extraordinaire,” who set a great example for their generations. Even though fabulously wealthy and raised in opulence, NONE of them present as the lazy, indulgent type who grew up with a “silver-spoon.”
Say what you will about Trump and his exes but the results standing in front of us all speak for themselves.
May 18, 2016 at 6:17 PM #797726Participant[quote=carli]Flyer, I’m not sure what you mean by you’ve encouraged your kids to develop their passion and discover a clear path to their goals. That’s what all supportive parents do. But it’s a stretch to imply that the way to ensure happiness is to have a clear direction upon college graduation. Also depends on what your definition of “lost” is…a kid who graduates from college without having a specific career in mind may not feel lost but rather open to exciting options. It’s all in the perspective. There’s no question that someone probably won’t be happy or successful by forever wandering aimlessly through life, but that’s not what we’re talking about.
Not taking anything away from you or your kids, who have all apparently discovered their passions early on, but there are way more examples of uber successful (and presumably happy) people who either stumbled upon something or tried various paths until they found their exact passion or direction as they went along.
This discussion reminds me of the question of which is better, a broad liberal arts education or a more purpose-driven STEM education? It could be argued either way and there is value in each. Both can produce extremely happy and successful people in any field. There’s not a one-size-fits-all formula, and it puzzles me when people insist that the path they’ve taken to success and happiness is the path everyone should take.[/quote]I believe in the broad liberal arts curriculum. I actually tried to convince my kids to apply to a 4-year state college (OOS) which offered that (along with several very highly-accredited business programs). ALL of them could have gotten a full ride there for four years making my cost just <$200 month for 1/2 utilities for an on-campus apt (for 2 students) plus food. But they all declined. They wanted to stay in Cali and work in Cali after graduation (getting jobs by way of networking) and that's what they did/are doing. They didn't want to live where it snowed. If I had a do-over in life, I would get a liberal arts education (but likely major in a business discipline). I really like rural campuses, esp Humboldt State University and UC Santa Cruz. I also love the atmosphere around Cal (Berkeley). I think the degree you have, Carli (English) is more valuable on the job market than Sociology (by itself). But like you said, your son is smart and will eventually find his way. I just fear the cost of living in CA coastal counties (mainly rent) is going to crush millenials (if it hasn't already), especially those who do not have enough education (or the "right" education) to land a decent, full-time job with a living wage and benefits. So if this group wants to remain here for the long haul after graduation, they had best get their sh!t together ASAP after graduation, and, by hook or crook, obtain one of the available local "living-wage positions" and start to work. That's what most graduates of LA area/Bay area public universities do. They typically don't move that far away from campus for their first jobs and may not even move from the (off-campus) housing they lived in while attending college. And they seldom seem to return "home" after graduation (unless it is from LA to the bay area or vice versa). I think it's much harder in SD County to land a first FT job (with benefits) after graduating from university. SD County is somewhere a college graduate would aspire to transfer into LONG AFTER they begin their career (5-15 years later) in another locale.
May 18, 2016 at 8:04 PM #797730scaredyclassic
ParticipantI bounced around for 7 years after college before law school. Did all kinds of work, and no work. Travelled a lot. Was homeless [well a couchsurfer] a while (wish I’d been a semi hobo even longer). Never earned more than 12k a year.
Was worthwhile in many ways but in particular I think it has made me a better middle aged dude in that I do not have wanderlust. I see a lot of discontented guys my age wanting to roam. I did that upfront. I couldn’t have stayed married if I’d gotten hitched earlier too.
I’d say it’s too early to call ones kids successful till I see how they’re doing at age 40 or so, how their relationships are, how they relate to their kids. I probably looked like a total flop all around to my dad at age 29, but by 53, in my opinion, I’m doing good.
Yet, there’s no way I could be where I am mentally now if I’d gotten into the rat race right after college.
As Kurt vonnegut said,
Sometimes you have to go a very long way out of your way to go a short way correctly,
OR something like that.
May 18, 2016 at 9:29 PM #797734Participant[quote=scaredyclassic]I bounced around for 7 years after college before law school. Did all kinds of work, and no work. Travelled a lot. Was homeless [well a couchsurfer] a while (wish I’d been a semi hobo even longer). Never earned more than 12k a year.
Was worthwhile in many ways but in particular I think it has made me a better middle aged dude in that I do not have wanderlust. I see a lot of discontented guys my age wanting to roam. I did that upfront. I couldn’t have stayed married if I’d gotten hitched earlier too.
I’d say it’s too early to call ones kids successful till I see how they’re doing at age 40 or so, how their relationships are, how they relate to their kids. I probably looked like a total flop all around to my dad at age 29, but by 53, in my opinion, I’m doing good.
Yet, there’s no way I could be where I am mentally now if I’d gotten into the rat race right after college.
As Kurt vonnegut said,
Sometimes you have to go a very long way out of your way to go a short way correctly,
OR something like that.[/quote]Good to hear, scaredy, and I truly mean that. I KNOW you have a challenging and meaningful career and that it is entirely necessary to make the world go round.
I have a question for you, though. Did you ever get your student loans paid off? And if so, at what age were you when you finally paid them off?
May 18, 2016 at 9:35 PM #797735FlyerInHi
GuestBG, It’s boarding school and the Czech upbringing.
May 18, 2016 at 9:54 PM #797737njtosd
Participant[quote=bearishgurl]
I have a question for you, though. Did you ever get your student loans paid off? And if so, at what age were you when you finally paid them off?[/quote]
BG – here’s what I don’t get. We’re all about the same age. My brother in law went to a big 10 school, did great and worked a combination of three jobs to pay for college. Never took a loan and got a great job. When we were in school it was cheaper and many people worked their way through school. Heck, there’s a girl who paid for UVA as an out of state student (final cost was about 40,000 a year after scholarships) selling jewelry on Etsy. https://www.entrepreneur.com/article/247609
I think your fixation on loans and such, especially for those our age who didn’t have very high tuition costs (and lived in a house with 13 other people 😉 is a little off. I know a lot of people who’s parents didn’t pay for school but didn’t end up with much (or any) student debt.
People need to be willing to work harder than they are. One of my coworkers was saddled with loans, some of which had been used for his weekly massages. I never got massages in college. . . . but I did get help from my parents.
May 18, 2016 at 11:57 PM #797738Participant[quote=njtosd][quote=bearishgurl]
I have a question for you, though. Did you ever get your student loans paid off? And if so, at what age were you when you finally paid them off?[/quote]
BG – here’s what I don’t get. We’re all about the same age. My brother in law went to a big 10 school, did great and worked a combination of three jobs to pay for college. Never took a loan and got a great job. When we were in school it was cheaper and many people worked their way through school. Heck, there’s a girl who paid for UVA as an out of state student (final cost was about 40,000 a year after scholarships) selling jewelry on Etsy. https://www.entrepreneur.com/article/247609
I think your fixation on loans and such, especially for those our age who didn’t have very high tuition costs (and lived in a house with 13 other people 😉 is a little off. I know a lot of people who’s parents didn’t pay for school but didn’t end up with much (or any) student debt.
People need to be willing to work harder than they are. One of my coworkers was saddled with loans, some of which had been used for his weekly massages. I never got massages in college. . . . but I did get help from my parents.[/quote]Oh, I agree. My siblings had/have college degrees, even a Masters but worked their own way thru school (back in the ’70’s).
The problem, nj, is that just to get a teaching credential in CA (1 yr) in combination with a Masters in Education (1 yr) now costs $15-$16K per yr. That’s ~$32K for the whole program (which a teaching candidate really needs to have the necessary expert feedback, coaching, mentoring and reccos for a demanding public school job today), directly out of those (UCLA) programs I posted here today. This cost is over and above the undergrad work already undertaken.
The CA UC/CSU/CC started out with “free” tuition for CA residents (plus campus fees and books) back in my day and climbed up to what it is today. The CSU tuition and fees for a FT student totaled about $168 semester in 1980 for CA residents (plus parking and books).
I DO agree that student loan funds have been mishandled by the masses (as you said, massages, and I will add regular mani/pedis and $150++ hair salon visits as well as trendy clothing and party/entertainment funds). A lot of former students are currently paying 6.5%+ interest on all the stuff they spent their SL funds on in college.
Student loans did not even exist for me when I was college age. If they did, I’m sure I wouldn’t have taken any out because I was risk averse to anything which would curtail my freedom back then (and still am to some extent today).
scaredy just posted that he enrolled in law school (as you know, much more expensive than undergrad) at least 7 years after graduating from college. He’s posted before on this forum that he took out student loans to fund his way thru law school. I’m just asking him here how many years out of his working life it took him to pay them back. The length of time it took is neither good nor bad. Everyone has their own journey in life and makes their own choices as to how they want to lead it and in what order they want their milestones to occur. I’ve known dozens of lawyers who were still paying on law-school loans in their late 40’s … yes, even with several minor children at home. And they were “successful” in their careers.
I personally think student loans are evil and hamper a former student’s ability to actually move on with their lives after graduation. Especially if they didn’t even graduate. If they are large (over $100K), the debt tends to cripple the individual financially and ruin their credit if they take too much time off without making regular payments on them … all the while “life” is happening to them.
I would have rather made less money working FT as a HS or CC graduate than have to face a mountain of student loan debt in adulthood and that’s what I did but that’s just me. At least I got a jump start on working FT while a portion of my “brethren” was in college … and sometimes graduate school. I bought a new car at the age of 21 and paid it off in 2 years. I bought my first house at the age of 22. I now have a pension to show for all my efforts.
Those days are long gone, now, of course, but a college student at a 4-year university is essentially putting their adult life “on hold” for 4+ years while they attempt to earn a bachelor degree which seems to be a necessity today just to land a similar job to what we did right out of HS or CC.
Yes, people CAN work harder (my youngest, a FT college student, often works too many hours in my opinion). But at $10 per hour today, they’re not getting very far. They couldn’t possibly pay their tuition, campus fees and exorbitant books and still put gas in their vehicle and pay Greek dues and all the other minor incidentals that go with being a FT student and member of a Greek organization.
My kids never took out student loans and never will. They got help from parents for room/board, iphone bill, auto insurance, health insurance, a tuition waiver and scholarship $$ to cover the rest (campus fees and books) as long as they carried 12 units. Their tuition waiver only covers a portion of summer term … not all. Summer tuition and fees run $1000 and up WITH the fee waiver.
My youngest, of course, is being charged the most due to tuition and fee hikes in recent years. Tuition now costs nearly $7K to attend FT year round (all waived) per year at a CSU (more or less, depending on campus). Campus fees are $1800 to $2000 year. Books are ~$1000 year, even if some are purchased used. Room and board costs between $10,200 and $10,500 per year (4 students to a living unit) but their school is NOT located in a pricier coastal area.
A CA 4-year public university is still doable for a middle/moderate income family (we have a higher income) but I’m really grateful that we’re almost done. We’re both old and teetering on the verge of retirement. Time to call it a day and get the last kid “off the payroll,” as carli so eloquently put it :=0
Everything is so exponentially costlier today and minimum wage has not even begun to keep up. So I don’t think a kid could “work themselves thru” a public 4-year CA university today unless they had a tuition waiver on file AND made $15-20 hr for 20-24 hrs per week. And in So Cal, that is next to impossible to do.
May 19, 2016 at 6:20 AM #797741Participant[quote=carli]Flyer, I’m not sure what you mean by you’ve encouraged your kids to develop their passion and discover a clear path to their goals. That’s what all supportive parents do. But it’s a stretch to imply that the way to ensure happiness is to have a clear direction upon college graduation. Also depends on what your definition of “lost” is…a kid who graduates from college without having a specific career in mind may not feel lost but rather open to exciting options. It’s all in the perspective. There’s no question that someone probably won’t be happy or successful by forever wandering aimlessly through life, but that’s not what we’re talking about.
Not taking anything away from you or your kids, who have all apparently discovered their passions early on, but there are way more examples of uber successful (and presumably happy) people who either stumbled upon something or tried various paths until they found their exact passion or direction as they went along.
This discussion reminds me of the question of which is better, a broad liberal arts education or a more purpose-driven STEM education? It could be argued either way and there is value in each. Both can produce extremely happy and successful people in any field. There’s not a one-size-fits-all formula, and it puzzles me when people insist that the path they’ve taken to success and happiness is the path everyone should take.[/quote]
Completely understand your perspective. My comments concerned my own family and friends and what has and has not worked for them. As I also mentioned, everyone is different, and is certainly free to pursue life on their own terms. We’re very happy with the paths we chose, and wish everyone the best in their pursuits.
May 19, 2016 at 7:25 AM #797742Participant[quote=bearishgurl][quote=scaredyclassic]I bounced around for 7 years after college before law school. Did all kinds of work, and no work. Travelled a lot. Was homeless [well a couchsurfer] a while (wish I’d been a semi hobo even longer). Never earned more than 12k a year.
Was worthwhile in many ways but in particular I think it has made me a better middle aged dude in that I do not have wanderlust. I see a lot of discontented guys my age wanting to roam. I did that upfront. I couldn’t have stayed married if I’d gotten hitched earlier too.
I’d say it’s too early to call ones kids successful till I see how they’re doing at age 40 or so, how their relationships are, how they relate to their kids. I probably looked like a total flop all around to my dad at age 29, but by 53, in my opinion, I’m doing good.
Yet, there’s no way I could be where I am mentally now if I’d gotten into the rat race right after college.
As Kurt vonnegut said,
Sometimes you have to go a very long way out of your way to go a short way correctly,
OR something like that.[/quote]Good to hear, scaredy, and I truly mean that. I KNOW you have a challenging and meaningful career and that it is entirely necessary to make the world go round.
I have a question for you, though. Did you ever get your student loans paid off? And if so, at what age were you when you finally paid them off?[/quote]
Parents paid undergrad. Could’ve gone to a,state school for free though. My parents wanted the most prestigious for me, I want the best value for my kids.
Law school loans still out there. Student Loans are very scary and dangerous….
May 19, 2016 at 10:10 AM #797749Participant[quote=scaredyclassic]Parents paid undergrad. Could’ve gone to a,state school for free though. My parents wanted the most prestigious for me, I want the best value for my kids.
Law school loans still out there. Student Loans are very scary and dangerous….[/quote]scaredy, it really seems to me like you should have qualified for “Public Service (partial) Loan Forgiveness” for one or more of your student loans at some point … that is, if any of them are Federal Direct Student Loans, they aren’t too old and you’ve been making regular payments on them over the years.
No one has a harder and more “needed by society” (white collar) job than you do, imho. If some in “society” don’t feel they need people in your position, its due to their own profound ignorance. I worked in the “system” as well and never took such comments personally.
You could have joined a civil firm right after passing the bar exam, brought in client(s), chocked up billable hours ad nauseam and could have likely been made partner by now … a far more lucrative proposition than the “dedicated foot soldier” path you chose. For that reason alone, I feel you deserve whatever “loan forgiveness” you can qualify for, if at all possible.
Yeah, I wanted/want the “best value” for my kid(s) as well. We are fortunate here in Cali that our public university systems are the best and still fairly reasonably priced, in spite of all the fee hikes in recent years!
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