Career Advice – To Move or Not to Move

[Anonymous]

Dave, thanks for the post. What jobs would that CFA prepare me for? I assume financial analysis, financial consulting etc? My mind, and interests, tend to be less geared toward the hard analytical side. I do have what I would consider above average analytical abilities, but as an example I took the GMAT years ago after college and scored 98% in verbal, but only 60% quantitative. On the ACT in high school, did great in science reasoning and verbal, not as well in math. Excelled at geometry in high school with straight A’s, but needed to get a tutor for advanced algebra. And in college English, I was twice accused of stealing the essays I submitted from publications like Readers Digest. Perhaps I should take the governmental/public affairs job and write novels on the side:)

[SD Attorney]

Juice,

Go to law school. Seriously. You will not regret it. You have the rest of your life to work. The longer that you put off law school, or any other graduate program, the harder it will be to break away from your routine and go back to school.

I am a young lawyer, work in San Diego, and have a JD from a top law school. You must face the reality that attorney jobs are extremely difficult to get in San Diego. Extremely. You will take a pay cut, unless you want to work at a large firm, but then you will have no time for your family. I have friends at large firms that often work from 4 am to 10 pm. Not for me.

I grew up in the midwest and know the value of a good education. When you are 80 years old and you look back at the fact that you missed out on a graduate degree because you wanted a larger down payment on a house???? Doesn’t that sound ridiculous.

Go to school. Your kids will be proud!

[Anonymous]

Construction:

I understand the line of reasoning that I should just to ‘go for it’, because I am young, because the opportunity may not arise again etc. But I am not yet sold on the opportunities that this will provide me in the long run. I keep hearing that it is horribly tough to get a law job in San Diego, that lawyers are all burned out and dissatisfied with their careers etc. By way of comparison, if I were looking at say a masters in electrical engineering, I would know that it is in demand, pays very well, plentiful San Diego opportunities, and many engineers (not all) are happy in their careers. Or say an MBA from UCLA where I will have plentiful job oppps and a salary over 100k right off the bat. I know MBAs (some here) who make great money, travel, and have good work/life balances. The trade off is larger than a house downpayment for me. It also includes 100k+ cash, 100 hour weeks for 4 years (work, school, studying), only seeing my family for a few hours a week, and the prospect of graduating only to find out that my degree is not in demand and essentially useless because I didn’t graduate in the top 5%. Anyway, thanks for the input, these are just some of my thoughts. On the flip side, I am also thinking that “I will have so many opportunities if I just go for it!” I think that much of this thought process has been programmed by years of hearing that doctors, lawyers etc. are the real high paying professions:)

[Bugs]

Financial stability is obviously something that is high on your list of priorities, otherwise you’d be carying too much debt right now to make any decisions other than to carry on. The fact that you have saved the $200k while living here says a lot about your priorities in life.

A government job in an area with reasonable living costs is a pretty safe and secure way to sit out an economic recession. Only a fraction of the attorneys I know do substantially better economically than the pay+benefits package you are describing, and those that do have to work long and hard to do it. That’s fine if they love what they’re doing or if they love the money, but by then we’re talking about different priorities.

As you have apparently figured out by now it isn’t how much money you make that counts, but how much you spend that determines your economic well-being.

You should go to law school if you have that burning desire to do it and, to a lesser degree, if your self-image revolves primarily around your occupation. Other than that, you might want to give more weight to the other aspects of your life.

[Anonymous]

Good advice bugs, thanks. When you say that only a fraction do better, are you using the 73k figure for income, or are you also adjusting for cost of living? An online calculator showed that 73k there is the same as 110k here. I just ran some additional numbers and found that if I strictly look at expected salaries and my ability to save in both places, a very rough estimate is that I could be a millionaire in 17 years plus have a 20 year government pension if I take the government job, or only have 400k saved if I go to law school. None of this accounts for unknown events, of course, like the possibility that I go to law school, meet the right people r see an opportunity and end up doing very well in some business venture.

[gn]

If you decide to go to law school, consider following scenarios:

1. You land a good job as an attorney with reasonable hours & good salary (so you can provide for your family and pay off that $100k loan).

2. You land a job with a so-so salary ($70k) & 60 hours a week.

3. You have to work insane hours & the pay is not that good. You realize why so many attorneys are not satisfied with their jobs.

Unless you graduate at the top of the class at USD, the probability of scenario #1 is very small. Most likely, you’ll get scenario #2 or #3. And I have a feeling that you will not be happy with #2 or #3.

[SD Attorney]

gn – good post. I agree.

Being an attorney works like you say. You can work 80 hours a week, have little time to do things outside of work, but make big bucks. Or you can work 40 hours a week, have a great quality of life outside of work, but not make as much money.

The one great thing about being an attorney is that you have a HUGE network of people that you meet throughout your career. I have know a lot of attorney’s that have left the practice of law to enter into joint ventures with other business people and have done great.

If you have a law degree and a good business skills the sky is the limit.

[Anonymous]

40 hour weeks would give me the opportunity to get something else going on the side, like buying, refurbishing and renting homes to graduate students to create ‘multiple streams of income’ or whatever that Kiyasaki (sp?) guy calls it in Rich Dad Poor Dad (didn’t like the book, but thought some of the big picture ideas were worthwhile. Don’t buy the book w/him and Trump = waste of time).

[kicksavedave]

Can’t speak to being a lawyer in the public sector, but many others have weighed in. However, my Dad worked for the Fed Govt (accountant for HHS) for 20 years and hated it, but retired at 55 and has been happy for 20 years since then with a modest, but stress free retirement. However, my best friends step dad who I am very close with, was a LAWYER for the Fed Govt (VA) and hated it so much it nearly killed him. It was the worst job on the planet, so he said. The beaurocracy, the case loads, the average pay, the inability to get real help to his clients (Veterans). His health actually suffered from the stress. On the day they announced his retirement was up, this 60 year old man literally jumped into the air and clicked his heels.

Also I think your salary comparison between SD and Mizzou is short. Take a look at what you can buy for your money in MO, vs in SD. For $400K in MO you will live in a mansion, in SD a crummy condo. Your salary expectations in either situation are in the high 5 figures. In San Diego, you will be dirt poor. In MO, you will be well off. FOr a nice 4br 3ba house in San Diego, even with your $200K down, your mortgage will be oppressive. In MO, it will be peanuts. With the money you save in MO, you will be able to invest and retire far far earlier than you can in SD.

Check out the savings that accrues from that $1000 a month you won’t spend if you moved.

http://apps.nasd.com/investor_Information/Calculators/nasd/SavingsCalc.aspx

Over 30 years, it’s substantial.

Just my $.02

[Anonymous]

Construction:

Your last post hit it on the head. I would go to school at night, work days. I’m not necessarily thinking about law firm opps, but rather business related ventures. Say I got a job working on some aspect of real estate foreclosures or with a developer and went ot law school at night. I bet I could network into all sorts of real estate related jobs, opps from there with the right initiative. Rather than think in terms of ‘if I get top 5%, I deserve this salary at a firm’ I am thinking that through four years of experience relevant to the type of law I want to do, say real estate, I will have networked my way into opportunities by the time I graduate. All it take is one, right. Say I’m sitting down at Panera studying law and start chatting with the guy next to me who happens to be a developer. He’s impressed that I am a former military officer/undergrad business degree/going to law school/working full time and have a family and I end up landing a huge opportunity through him. Who am I kidding…I wont have time to hang out at Panera!

[PD]

There is one thing that no one has talked about and it happens to be the most important – your kids. When you ask an elderly person what they wished they could do differently, the men usually say that they wished they had spent more time with their kids.

Take the government job. Go to their baseball games and school events. Enjoy their childhood and make it the best you can for them. You said there is a university where you would move. Get an advanced degree while you are there (slowly so that it doesn’t impact your family too much).

I used to work with an attorney. He worked terrible hours and his family suffered. I had considered going to law school myself but the saw the light after watching him.

If being an attorney is your dream job, then that gives it a little extra weight. However, it doesn’t sound like this is the case.

You have a good nest egg and you will live very well elsewhere. I know a number of people with government jobs (not postal, etc) who live very nice lives. I know one guy who has plenty of time to be the head coach on his son’s baseball team. He is always at practice at 3:300. Go to work at 8, almost always home by 5. Where else to do you get that these days?

Bottom line: Kids come before money (or anything else).

[outtamojo]

Although we each should live our lives as we see fit and no
one way is perfect, I agree with PD. One of my teenage nieces recently had an “episode” and had to spill the beans on what she had been up to with her friends – it wasn’t a pretty picture. Her mom and dad both work 2 jobs to pay the mortgage and never really had the time to know who she was hangin’ out with and what they were doing.

[Anonymous]

outtamojo – You left us hanging…what was the episode? I understand if you can’t answer:)

Seriously more great, often overlooked advice. During a farewell speech, a commanding officer of mine once said, “I doubt that if I were rich, at my funeral service, anyone would look down and say ‘he sure died with alot of money in his bank account'”

[Bugs]

My wife and I work from home so we were always around when our kids were teenagers. I cannot express how much of a difference that has made in my relationship with them as a father when I compare it to my relationship with my own corporate warrior dad. He was a CPA/CFO type for a couple of the big contracting companies (Flour and Parsons) and he was never home when I was growing up. He’s a good man but I don’t know him nearly as well as my kids know me.

People do what they have to do, but if you and your wife can arrange your lives so that you can spend even a little more time with your kids when they’re growing up I don’t think you’ll regret it. I sure don’t.

Something else. You already making references to doing things on the outside, like possibly getting into RE development or running a home business. If you’re already thinking about a large share of your money coming from sources other than your full-time job then perhaps you should concentrate on maximizing those outside sources. Law school has little to do with RE development or selling widgets on EBay.

[SD Attorney]

Juice,

One more thing to think about. In the last two weeks in San Diego I went surfing, went to Tijuana, went hiking in Anza-Borrego, visited friends in LA, going to a photography exhibit tomorrow night, went to yoga class, ate incredible Thai food, went running on the beach in Del Mar, ate great Italian food in Little Italy, went to English Pub on Adams Avenue, ate dinner at Lei Lounge on Park Avenue, took a spanish language class and hit golf balls.

I am from the Midwest, so trust me when I say that in the Midwest your weekly excitement will be going to Applebee’s and watching American Idol. Plus, you will have to put on an extra 100 lbs just to fit in.

Trust me.

[Author]

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