60 mpg by 2025

[BigGovernmentIsGood]

[quote=XBoxBoy]Please tell us, what are the advantages of regulation over taxation?
[/quote]

I never said that regulation was better than taxation. Taxation is probably better because it would start inhibiting demand immediately. My guess is the environmental groups don’t push for increased gas taxes because they know that the public won’t support it. So they go for the next best thing which is increasing the CAFE standards.

I’m in favor of anything that will inhibit burning of fossil fuels, so I support both increasing the CAFE standards and increasing the gas tax. Unfortunately, I’m likely in the minority on the gas tax increase and thus have to live with the preferences of the majority which is no gas tax increases.

[sdduuuude]

[quote=BigGovernmentIsGood][quote=sdduuuude]
Who has the friggin right to tell me what car I can drive and how much gas I can put in it?
[/quote]

What right do you have to pollute the air that all of us breathe and the water that all of us drink?[/quote]

Uh. I didn’t say anything about pollution, and neither did your original post. That is a different matter entirely. Regulating pollution is sensible as it prevents people from infringing upon the rights of others. Your post has to do with gas mileage – a decision I have the right to make for myself.

[sdduuuude]

[quote=BigGovernmentIsGood][quote=sdduuuude]
Who has the friggin right to tell me what car I can drive and how much gas I can put in it?
[/quote]

What right do you have to pollute the air that all of us breathe and the water that all of us drink?[/quote]

Uh. I didn’t say anything about pollution, and neither did your original post. That is a different matter entirely. Regulating pollution is sensible as it prevents people from infringing upon the rights of others. Your post has to do with gas mileage – a decision I have the right to make for myself.

[sdduuuude]

[quote=BigGovernmentIsGood][quote=sdduuuude]
Who has the friggin right to tell me what car I can drive and how much gas I can put in it?
[/quote]

What right do you have to pollute the air that all of us breathe and the water that all of us drink?[/quote]

Uh. I didn’t say anything about pollution, and neither did your original post. That is a different matter entirely. Regulating pollution is sensible as it prevents people from infringing upon the rights of others. Your post has to do with gas mileage – a decision I have the right to make for myself.

[sdduuuude]

[quote=BigGovernmentIsGood][quote=sdduuuude]
Who has the friggin right to tell me what car I can drive and how much gas I can put in it?
[/quote]

What right do you have to pollute the air that all of us breathe and the water that all of us drink?[/quote]

Uh. I didn’t say anything about pollution, and neither did your original post. That is a different matter entirely. Regulating pollution is sensible as it prevents people from infringing upon the rights of others. Your post has to do with gas mileage – a decision I have the right to make for myself.

[sdduuuude]

[quote=BigGovernmentIsGood][quote=sdduuuude]
Who has the friggin right to tell me what car I can drive and how much gas I can put in it?
[/quote]

What right do you have to pollute the air that all of us breathe and the water that all of us drink?[/quote]

Uh. I didn’t say anything about pollution, and neither did your original post. That is a different matter entirely. Regulating pollution is sensible as it prevents people from infringing upon the rights of others. Your post has to do with gas mileage – a decision I have the right to make for myself.

[sdduuuude]

[quote=justme][quote=sdduuuude]

Who has the friggin right to tell me what car I can drive and how much gas I can put in it? Furthermore – how much money would we spend enforcing a regulation like this?
[/quote]

Is your right to individual irresponsibility more important than the basic needs of our grandchildren?[/quote]

Yes – absolutely, it is. It is not only my right. It is everyone’s. Life liberty and the pursuit of happiness is unalienable.

[quote=justme]We already have burned way too much of the world’s precious oil reserves.[/quote]

Again – this is your opinion. What is “too much” ? Who is to say? Certainly not you. You don’t have the right to dictate how much is too much. Who are you, the King of America or something ?

[sdduuuude]

[quote=justme][quote=sdduuuude]

Who has the friggin right to tell me what car I can drive and how much gas I can put in it? Furthermore – how much money would we spend enforcing a regulation like this?
[/quote]

Is your right to individual irresponsibility more important than the basic needs of our grandchildren?[/quote]

Yes – absolutely, it is. It is not only my right. It is everyone’s. Life liberty and the pursuit of happiness is unalienable.

[quote=justme]We already have burned way too much of the world’s precious oil reserves.[/quote]

Again – this is your opinion. What is “too much” ? Who is to say? Certainly not you. You don’t have the right to dictate how much is too much. Who are you, the King of America or something ?

[sdduuuude]

[quote=justme][quote=sdduuuude]

Who has the friggin right to tell me what car I can drive and how much gas I can put in it? Furthermore – how much money would we spend enforcing a regulation like this?
[/quote]

Is your right to individual irresponsibility more important than the basic needs of our grandchildren?[/quote]

Yes – absolutely, it is. It is not only my right. It is everyone’s. Life liberty and the pursuit of happiness is unalienable.

[quote=justme]We already have burned way too much of the world’s precious oil reserves.[/quote]

Again – this is your opinion. What is “too much” ? Who is to say? Certainly not you. You don’t have the right to dictate how much is too much. Who are you, the King of America or something ?

[sdduuuude]

[quote=justme][quote=sdduuuude]

Who has the friggin right to tell me what car I can drive and how much gas I can put in it? Furthermore – how much money would we spend enforcing a regulation like this?
[/quote]

Is your right to individual irresponsibility more important than the basic needs of our grandchildren?[/quote]

Yes – absolutely, it is. It is not only my right. It is everyone’s. Life liberty and the pursuit of happiness is unalienable.

[quote=justme]We already have burned way too much of the world’s precious oil reserves.[/quote]

Again – this is your opinion. What is “too much” ? Who is to say? Certainly not you. You don’t have the right to dictate how much is too much. Who are you, the King of America or something ?

[sdduuuude]

[quote=justme][quote=sdduuuude]

Who has the friggin right to tell me what car I can drive and how much gas I can put in it? Furthermore – how much money would we spend enforcing a regulation like this?
[/quote]

Is your right to individual irresponsibility more important than the basic needs of our grandchildren?[/quote]

Yes – absolutely, it is. It is not only my right. It is everyone’s. Life liberty and the pursuit of happiness is unalienable.

[quote=justme]We already have burned way too much of the world’s precious oil reserves.[/quote]

Again – this is your opinion. What is “too much” ? Who is to say? Certainly not you. You don’t have the right to dictate how much is too much. Who are you, the King of America or something ?

[sdduuuude]

[quote=BigGovernmentIsGood][quote=sdduuuude]
Who has the friggin right to tell me what car I can drive and how much gas I can put in it?
[/quote]

What right do you have to pollute the air that all of us breathe and the water that all of us drink? It’s perfectly valid for a government to balance one person’s desire to pollute against the rest of the populations’ right to clean air and water..[/quote]

Nice gear change. Here we were talking about mpg and you changed it to a pollution discussion. This is just as stupid as my typo which you think changed it to an mph discussion. Not even going to address pollution as it is off-topic.

[quote=BigGovernmentIsGood]
[quote=sdduuuude]
Furthermore – how much money would we spend enforcing a regulation like this?
[/quote]

CAFE (Corporate Average Fuel Economy) has been enforced since 1975. This is nothing new. The current standard for passenger cars is 27.5 mpg and increases to 30.2 mpg in 2011. The only thing new here is the proposed 60 mpg standard for 2025.

You can read more about CAFE here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CAFE_standards

Note that the current mpg standards for passenger cars are the same today as they were in 1990.

By the way, your whining about government telling you what kind of car to drive and how much gas to put in it is misplaced. If manufacturers don’t meet the mpg standards, they are merely assessed a fine. To me, this seems like a quite sensible way to make those who consume and pollute the most pay for the negative externalities (like war, environmental destruction, pollution, etc) that they force the rest of us to deal with.[/quote]

CAFE / no CAFE. Big deal. Just because we spend alot of money regulating the cars that are available doesn’t mean we should continue doing so, or step up the efforts.

[quote=BigGovernmentIsGood]
[quote=sdduuuude]
Maybe we would have been driving 5 mph cars
[/quote]

‘mph’ is short for ‘miles per hour’. Miles per hour is a measurement of speed. What we are talking about in this thread is ‘mpg’ which is short for ‘miles per gallon’. Miles per gallon is a measurement of efficiency. It is possible for highly efficient cars to go fast, so neither myself, the government, nor anyone else in this thread is trying to attempt to make you slow down. Again, your whining in this case is misplaced.[/quote]

Chill, dude. It’s a typo.

[quote=BigGovernmentIsGood]
[quote=sdduuuude]
A market is a good way for multiple people to bring about a situation, or come to a conclusion together through individual action, and that situation may not always be what you like.
[/quote]

Markets don’t account for negative externalities and they don’t work well when the resource at issue is a non-renewable, finite resource.

It doesn’t cost British Petroleum anything to dump toxic waste in your water supply, but it could cost you your life. Wouldn’t you prefer that government attempt to account for this externality that would negatively affect you?[/quote]

Lets stick to the regulation at hand, shall we? The “60 MPG” thing. Why is it that when I say I should be able to buy a car with crappy gas mileage, you assume that I think the government shouldn’t regulate the dumping of toxic waste in my water supply. You are crazy, dude.

[quote=BigGovernmentIsGood]
[quote=sdduuuude]
The original poster’s user name should be “BigGovernmentIsGoodButOnlyIfTheBig
GovernmentForcesPeopleToDoWhatIWantThemTo” and I would like to suggest China as a new home for you.

Just let people buy the car they want and deal with what happens. The market may not go the way you want it to. Tough crap. This ain’t Burger King – you can’t always have it your way.[/quote]

You’ve demonstrated zero knowledge on CAFE, you don’t know the difference between the simple concepts of mpg and mph, and you don’t understand that markets do not account for externalities. I think I will continue to live in this country and fight against illogical, uninformed, emotional arguments such as yours, thank you very much.[/quote]

Face it, you come at this from a “I want to control the world to be the way I want it” point of view. You think we should have 60 MPG (G – OK get it? G) cars and thus the government shoudl be able to dictate to everyone that they should behave exactly as you want.

I’m just happy you aren’t the King, even though you clearly want to be.

I don’t give a crap about CAFE.

I do know the difference between MPG and MPH. I just can’t type.

I understand markets better than you ever will, unless Stanford reeeeeally screwed up and …

My arguments are not emotional. They deal exclusively with personal rights. You don’t have the right to take them or infringe upon them, as much as you want to.

[sdduuuude]

[quote=BigGovernmentIsGood][quote=sdduuuude]
Who has the friggin right to tell me what car I can drive and how much gas I can put in it?
[/quote]

What right do you have to pollute the air that all of us breathe and the water that all of us drink? It’s perfectly valid for a government to balance one person’s desire to pollute against the rest of the populations’ right to clean air and water..[/quote]

Nice gear change. Here we were talking about mpg and you changed it to a pollution discussion. This is just as stupid as my typo which you think changed it to an mph discussion. Not even going to address pollution as it is off-topic.

[quote=BigGovernmentIsGood]
[quote=sdduuuude]
Furthermore – how much money would we spend enforcing a regulation like this?
[/quote]

CAFE (Corporate Average Fuel Economy) has been enforced since 1975. This is nothing new. The current standard for passenger cars is 27.5 mpg and increases to 30.2 mpg in 2011. The only thing new here is the proposed 60 mpg standard for 2025.

You can read more about CAFE here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CAFE_standards

Note that the current mpg standards for passenger cars are the same today as they were in 1990.

By the way, your whining about government telling you what kind of car to drive and how much gas to put in it is misplaced. If manufacturers don’t meet the mpg standards, they are merely assessed a fine. To me, this seems like a quite sensible way to make those who consume and pollute the most pay for the negative externalities (like war, environmental destruction, pollution, etc) that they force the rest of us to deal with.[/quote]

CAFE / no CAFE. Big deal. Just because we spend alot of money regulating the cars that are available doesn’t mean we should continue doing so, or step up the efforts.

[quote=BigGovernmentIsGood]
[quote=sdduuuude]
Maybe we would have been driving 5 mph cars
[/quote]

‘mph’ is short for ‘miles per hour’. Miles per hour is a measurement of speed. What we are talking about in this thread is ‘mpg’ which is short for ‘miles per gallon’. Miles per gallon is a measurement of efficiency. It is possible for highly efficient cars to go fast, so neither myself, the government, nor anyone else in this thread is trying to attempt to make you slow down. Again, your whining in this case is misplaced.[/quote]

Chill, dude. It’s a typo.

[quote=BigGovernmentIsGood]
[quote=sdduuuude]
A market is a good way for multiple people to bring about a situation, or come to a conclusion together through individual action, and that situation may not always be what you like.
[/quote]

Markets don’t account for negative externalities and they don’t work well when the resource at issue is a non-renewable, finite resource.

It doesn’t cost British Petroleum anything to dump toxic waste in your water supply, but it could cost you your life. Wouldn’t you prefer that government attempt to account for this externality that would negatively affect you?[/quote]

Lets stick to the regulation at hand, shall we? The “60 MPG” thing. Why is it that when I say I should be able to buy a car with crappy gas mileage, you assume that I think the government shouldn’t regulate the dumping of toxic waste in my water supply. You are crazy, dude.

[quote=BigGovernmentIsGood]
[quote=sdduuuude]
The original poster’s user name should be “BigGovernmentIsGoodButOnlyIfTheBig
GovernmentForcesPeopleToDoWhatIWantThemTo” and I would like to suggest China as a new home for you.

Just let people buy the car they want and deal with what happens. The market may not go the way you want it to. Tough crap. This ain’t Burger King – you can’t always have it your way.[/quote]

You’ve demonstrated zero knowledge on CAFE, you don’t know the difference between the simple concepts of mpg and mph, and you don’t understand that markets do not account for externalities. I think I will continue to live in this country and fight against illogical, uninformed, emotional arguments such as yours, thank you very much.[/quote]

Face it, you come at this from a “I want to control the world to be the way I want it” point of view. You think we should have 60 MPG (G – OK get it? G) cars and thus the government shoudl be able to dictate to everyone that they should behave exactly as you want.

I’m just happy you aren’t the King, even though you clearly want to be.

I don’t give a crap about CAFE.

I do know the difference between MPG and MPH. I just can’t type.

I understand markets better than you ever will, unless Stanford reeeeeally screwed up and …

My arguments are not emotional. They deal exclusively with personal rights. You don’t have the right to take them or infringe upon them, as much as you want to.

[sdduuuude]

[quote=BigGovernmentIsGood][quote=sdduuuude]
Who has the friggin right to tell me what car I can drive and how much gas I can put in it?
[/quote]

What right do you have to pollute the air that all of us breathe and the water that all of us drink? It’s perfectly valid for a government to balance one person’s desire to pollute against the rest of the populations’ right to clean air and water..[/quote]

Nice gear change. Here we were talking about mpg and you changed it to a pollution discussion. This is just as stupid as my typo which you think changed it to an mph discussion. Not even going to address pollution as it is off-topic.

[quote=BigGovernmentIsGood]
[quote=sdduuuude]
Furthermore – how much money would we spend enforcing a regulation like this?
[/quote]

CAFE (Corporate Average Fuel Economy) has been enforced since 1975. This is nothing new. The current standard for passenger cars is 27.5 mpg and increases to 30.2 mpg in 2011. The only thing new here is the proposed 60 mpg standard for 2025.

You can read more about CAFE here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CAFE_standards

Note that the current mpg standards for passenger cars are the same today as they were in 1990.

By the way, your whining about government telling you what kind of car to drive and how much gas to put in it is misplaced. If manufacturers don’t meet the mpg standards, they are merely assessed a fine. To me, this seems like a quite sensible way to make those who consume and pollute the most pay for the negative externalities (like war, environmental destruction, pollution, etc) that they force the rest of us to deal with.[/quote]

CAFE / no CAFE. Big deal. Just because we spend alot of money regulating the cars that are available doesn’t mean we should continue doing so, or step up the efforts.

[quote=BigGovernmentIsGood]
[quote=sdduuuude]
Maybe we would have been driving 5 mph cars
[/quote]

‘mph’ is short for ‘miles per hour’. Miles per hour is a measurement of speed. What we are talking about in this thread is ‘mpg’ which is short for ‘miles per gallon’. Miles per gallon is a measurement of efficiency. It is possible for highly efficient cars to go fast, so neither myself, the government, nor anyone else in this thread is trying to attempt to make you slow down. Again, your whining in this case is misplaced.[/quote]

Chill, dude. It’s a typo.

[quote=BigGovernmentIsGood]
[quote=sdduuuude]
A market is a good way for multiple people to bring about a situation, or come to a conclusion together through individual action, and that situation may not always be what you like.
[/quote]

Markets don’t account for negative externalities and they don’t work well when the resource at issue is a non-renewable, finite resource.

It doesn’t cost British Petroleum anything to dump toxic waste in your water supply, but it could cost you your life. Wouldn’t you prefer that government attempt to account for this externality that would negatively affect you?[/quote]

Lets stick to the regulation at hand, shall we? The “60 MPG” thing. Why is it that when I say I should be able to buy a car with crappy gas mileage, you assume that I think the government shouldn’t regulate the dumping of toxic waste in my water supply. You are crazy, dude.

[quote=BigGovernmentIsGood]
[quote=sdduuuude]
The original poster’s user name should be “BigGovernmentIsGoodButOnlyIfTheBig
GovernmentForcesPeopleToDoWhatIWantThemTo” and I would like to suggest China as a new home for you.

Just let people buy the car they want and deal with what happens. The market may not go the way you want it to. Tough crap. This ain’t Burger King – you can’t always have it your way.[/quote]

You’ve demonstrated zero knowledge on CAFE, you don’t know the difference between the simple concepts of mpg and mph, and you don’t understand that markets do not account for externalities. I think I will continue to live in this country and fight against illogical, uninformed, emotional arguments such as yours, thank you very much.[/quote]

Face it, you come at this from a “I want to control the world to be the way I want it” point of view. You think we should have 60 MPG (G – OK get it? G) cars and thus the government shoudl be able to dictate to everyone that they should behave exactly as you want.

I’m just happy you aren’t the King, even though you clearly want to be.

I don’t give a crap about CAFE.

I do know the difference between MPG and MPH. I just can’t type.

I understand markets better than you ever will, unless Stanford reeeeeally screwed up and …

My arguments are not emotional. They deal exclusively with personal rights. You don’t have the right to take them or infringe upon them, as much as you want to.

[sdduuuude]

[quote=BigGovernmentIsGood][quote=sdduuuude]
Who has the friggin right to tell me what car I can drive and how much gas I can put in it?
[/quote]

What right do you have to pollute the air that all of us breathe and the water that all of us drink? It’s perfectly valid for a government to balance one person’s desire to pollute against the rest of the populations’ right to clean air and water..[/quote]

Nice gear change. Here we were talking about mpg and you changed it to a pollution discussion. This is just as stupid as my typo which you think changed it to an mph discussion. Not even going to address pollution as it is off-topic.

[quote=BigGovernmentIsGood]
[quote=sdduuuude]
Furthermore – how much money would we spend enforcing a regulation like this?
[/quote]

CAFE (Corporate Average Fuel Economy) has been enforced since 1975. This is nothing new. The current standard for passenger cars is 27.5 mpg and increases to 30.2 mpg in 2011. The only thing new here is the proposed 60 mpg standard for 2025.

You can read more about CAFE here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CAFE_standards

Note that the current mpg standards for passenger cars are the same today as they were in 1990.

By the way, your whining about government telling you what kind of car to drive and how much gas to put in it is misplaced. If manufacturers don’t meet the mpg standards, they are merely assessed a fine. To me, this seems like a quite sensible way to make those who consume and pollute the most pay for the negative externalities (like war, environmental destruction, pollution, etc) that they force the rest of us to deal with.[/quote]

CAFE / no CAFE. Big deal. Just because we spend alot of money regulating the cars that are available doesn’t mean we should continue doing so, or step up the efforts.

[quote=BigGovernmentIsGood]
[quote=sdduuuude]
Maybe we would have been driving 5 mph cars
[/quote]

‘mph’ is short for ‘miles per hour’. Miles per hour is a measurement of speed. What we are talking about in this thread is ‘mpg’ which is short for ‘miles per gallon’. Miles per gallon is a measurement of efficiency. It is possible for highly efficient cars to go fast, so neither myself, the government, nor anyone else in this thread is trying to attempt to make you slow down. Again, your whining in this case is misplaced.[/quote]

Chill, dude. It’s a typo.

[quote=BigGovernmentIsGood]
[quote=sdduuuude]
A market is a good way for multiple people to bring about a situation, or come to a conclusion together through individual action, and that situation may not always be what you like.
[/quote]

Markets don’t account for negative externalities and they don’t work well when the resource at issue is a non-renewable, finite resource.

It doesn’t cost British Petroleum anything to dump toxic waste in your water supply, but it could cost you your life. Wouldn’t you prefer that government attempt to account for this externality that would negatively affect you?[/quote]

Lets stick to the regulation at hand, shall we? The “60 MPG” thing. Why is it that when I say I should be able to buy a car with crappy gas mileage, you assume that I think the government shouldn’t regulate the dumping of toxic waste in my water supply. You are crazy, dude.

[quote=BigGovernmentIsGood]
[quote=sdduuuude]
The original poster’s user name should be “BigGovernmentIsGoodButOnlyIfTheBig
GovernmentForcesPeopleToDoWhatIWantThemTo” and I would like to suggest China as a new home for you.

Just let people buy the car they want and deal with what happens. The market may not go the way you want it to. Tough crap. This ain’t Burger King – you can’t always have it your way.[/quote]

You’ve demonstrated zero knowledge on CAFE, you don’t know the difference between the simple concepts of mpg and mph, and you don’t understand that markets do not account for externalities. I think I will continue to live in this country and fight against illogical, uninformed, emotional arguments such as yours, thank you very much.[/quote]

Face it, you come at this from a “I want to control the world to be the way I want it” point of view. You think we should have 60 MPG (G – OK get it? G) cars and thus the government shoudl be able to dictate to everyone that they should behave exactly as you want.

I’m just happy you aren’t the King, even though you clearly want to be.

I don’t give a crap about CAFE.

I do know the difference between MPG and MPH. I just can’t type.

I understand markets better than you ever will, unless Stanford reeeeeally screwed up and …

My arguments are not emotional. They deal exclusively with personal rights. You don’t have the right to take them or infringe upon them, as much as you want to.

[Author]

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