[sdnativeson]

LOL ZB? I wouldn’t use much of his deeds/words to validate my position. I didn’t care for him when he worked for Carter and even less now. I guess short-sightedness transcends party lines eh?. I’ll add, I don’t see the definition of colonialism applying to our presence it Iraq. As you can see, he either won’t or can’t see what’s happening.

Brzezinski’s Interview with Le Nouvel Observateur

Le Nouvel Observateur: Former CIA director Robert Gates states in his memoirs: The American secret services began six months before the Soviet intervention to support the Mujahideen [in Afghanistan]. At that time you were president Carters security advisor; thus you played a key role in this affair. Do you confirm this statement?

Zbigniew Brzezinski: Yes. According to the official version, the CIA’s support for the Mujahideen began in 1980, i.e. after the Soviet army’s invasion of Afghanistan on 24 December 1979. But the reality, which was kept secret until today, is completely different: Actually it was on 3 July 1979 that president Carter signed the first directive for the secret support of the opposition against the pro-Soviet regime in Kabul. And on the same day I wrote a note, in which I explained to the president that this support would in my opinion lead to a military intervention by the Soviets.

Le Nouvel Observateur: Despite this risk you were a supporter of this covert action? But perhaps you expected the Soviets to enter this war and tried to provoke it?

Zbigniew Brzezinski: It’s not exactly like that. We didn’t push the Russians to intervene but we knowingly increased the probability that they would do it.

Le Nouvel Observateur: When the Soviets justified their intervention with the statement that they were fighting against a secret US interference in Afghanistan, nobody believed them. Nevertheless there was a core of truth to this…Do you regret nothing today?

Zbigniew Brzezinski: Regret what? This secret operation was an excellent idea. It lured the Russians into the Afghan trap, and you would like me to regret that? On the day when the Soviets officially crossed the border, I wrote president Carter, in essence: “We now have the opportunity to provide the USSR with their Viet Nam war.” Indeed for ten years Moscow had to conduct a war that was intolerable for the regime, a conflict which involved the demoralization and finally the breakup of the Soviet Empire.

Le Nouvel Observateur: And also, don’t you regret having helped future terrorists, having given them weapons and advice?

Zbigniew Brzezinski: What is most important for world history? The Taliban or the fall of the Soviet Empire? Some Islamic hotheads or the liberation of Central Europe and the end of the cold war?

Le Nouvel Observateur: “Some hotheads?” But it has been said time and time again: today Islamic fundamentalism represents a world-wide threat…

Zbigniew Brzezinski: Rubbish! It’s said that the West has a global policy regarding Islam. That’s hogwash: there is no global Islam. Let’s look at Islam in a rational and not a demagogic or emotional way. It is the first world religion with 1.5 billion adherents. But what is there in common between fundamentalist Saudi Arabia, moderate Morocco, militaristic Pakistan, pro-Western Egypt and secularized Central Asia? Nothing more than that which connects the Christian countries…

[sdnativeson]

I would say our corrupted version of freedom, and the subsequent abuse of it.

[sdnativeson]

Well we will never win a war by trying to not lose it.

How atypical of our state of politics and illuminating the (low) caliber of our politicians, putting their own political well being before such a critical issue.

How sad that so many here buy into that mentality and start gloating over who catches the fallout of the blame game.
Who, what and how much are you willing to sacrifice for the opportunity to be able to label Bush, Rove, Republicans(!) “neocons” as those who are evil, stupid, war-mongering etc. etc. in the annals of history? to be able to crow “I/we
was/were right and you were wrong?

I am sure that when I to step into harms way, you will be right BEHIND me. When you strip my corpse, consider the courtesy to send my wedding ring to my wife.

Here’s a link I like to visit;

http://www.michaelyon-online.com/

[sdnativeson]

“There are lies, damn lies – and statistics.” either Twain or Disreali I am not sure.

[sdnativeson]

soooo, democrats are poorly versed in tough political tactics? Just poor little victims? LOL.

The reason that a lot of people IMO think the Democrats are elitist is because that is what they see PC. I also find it unsurprising that the republicans are following that path.

As to Carter, I have my own thoughts about him, I’ll say he was the wrong man at the wrong time and go no further.

Michael Moore….. well, so you favor deceit to “educate” people. That somewhat surprises me about you. I guess that it’s ok as it furthers your agenda(s)? MM is “good” CR is “evil”.

[sdnativeson]

“Just ask the 22,714 Americans injured, and the 3,018 dead… oh wait, cant ask that group… Sadly, they are gone forever.”

Speak for yourself and to what you know lostkitty. Where do you get the authority/gall to speak for others? Especially the Americans you mention above.

[sdnativeson]

zk, I get a sense he hits a nerve with you. Maybe I am wrong, it certainly won’t be the first nor the last time.

What I took for the analogy is “You have your knickers in a wad over imagined slights from Rove? Toughen up, ladies.” I should have been more specific as I implied the whole post.

I take no offense at his “name-calling”, I found the “public school graduates” somewhat funny even if it was directed toward me. Calling me a lady and not being tough? well, I don’t really care, I assume we are big/old enough to know that just because someone says something about us doesn’t make it true.

IMO, I don’t think there is anything mean-spirited behind it, that could simply be jg’s sense of humor. I took it in the context of “get up and walk it off” still, as I don’t know jg, I could be wrong and obviously, we see it in a different manner.

But aren’t you being somewhat of a fraud? You called people unintelligent and irrational you don’t see that as name calling?

“Which is to say, not very well reasoned, not really making any logical points, not doing anything other than attempting to make others look silly and (if observers are intelligent and rational) only making yourself look silly in the process.” That is what I meant in the structure for the RDP.

I saw honesty with “Don’t get me wrong; I think the democrats would do it just as much if they were any good at it.” Too bad you toss it aside with the qualifier “But” immediately after, still, there was a brief acknowledgement.
Rove, you give him a lop-sided compliment, I don’t see it your way So, as to Rove, we agree to disagree.

I appreciate your candor saying you have no excuse for your arrogance.
Your first two sentences in the last paragraph…. are you speaking about jg or the large amount of unintelligent, irrational americans? If you are speaking to jg then you have a valid argument, in the second sentence
if you are speaking about the “large amount etc.” then you are indeed prejudiced toward those who differ in opinion and thought.

“large percentage of our population acts in an unintelligent and irrational fashion. And is subject to the type of influence that Karl Rove and his minions provide. Note that I didn’t say that they were unintelligent, just that they act that way sometimes”. It must be my public school education but I don’t find the “sometimes” in the first part of that statement. Possibly just a typo.

All in all, I concur with your call toward about calm, rational discussion and debate based upon reason and logic albeit with some empathy for the emotional variable and definitely laced with both humor and humility.(leave the arrogance at the door).

One more thing! I assume that when you said “that if they can be taught to act that way, then they can be taught to use reason and logic and calm discussion” you aren’t implying any sort of degradation of free will are you? Just give them the knowledge and let them run with it?

[sdnativeson]

poorgradstudent “Clinton’s middle class tax cuts were what made the 90s so great. Well, that and having a divided government, that reigned in wasteful spending.” Clinton took credit for the tax cuts pushed through by the houses at a later time, dig a little deeper and in different places.

[sdnativeson]

mixxalot, I don’t think or know that he did, I think he was lamenting the loss of those from what to him, is the true faith. I don’t see that as a criticism of other faiths.

[sdnativeson]

I appreciated jg’s pointing out that partisan goes way back as you (zk) also agreed with, mainly since so many here state it started with the Republicans and Bush, (those who are more benevolent chronologically go back to Reagan) I believe you have used that even in this last post. As to the rest of his post well, it’s the analogy he chooses to use, it doesn’t bother me. One thing to consider, if you get such a charge from jg’s post or jg for that matter you might consider the underlying issue is yours, not his.

I don’t really get the Rovian Debate philosophy comment though. Tactic? Maybe, Strategy? Possibly. Philosophy? No.

If “Rovian debate philosophy” is structured in the manner you say then why do you get so charged up over it? IMHO, it’s mostly a figment of your imagination and I think you are giving Rove and the Republicans way too much credit. Sometimes it’s easier to blame others. My experience is on the surface it’s others, underneath it’s oneself.

I also disregard your comment of “too many people in this country….. and irrational fashion”, I find that an extremely arrogant statement. You are saying/calling a large percentage of our population unitelligent and irrational – due to the fact they have/hold an opinion/ thoughts differing from those that you hold on to so vehemently.
It’s a contradiction from your second paragraph (in which I think you could make a good point)but still a contradiction which calls your whole argument into question.

[sdnativeson]

PC, seriously?

[sdnativeson]

jg, excellent point and post, poorgradstudent, it’s deja-vu all over again ;).
I was supposed to graduate?

[sdnativeson]

You are wealthy if:
-you make more money than your wife feels comfortable spending and
-you make more than your brother-in-law.

LOL, I may be doomed.

[sdnativeson]

soooo, well, again, you make my point, I read your last paragraph and I see the implied moral validation, predisposed attitude and expectancy of conflict, the subsequent physical preparation for violence and then it’s initiation. And you rant about Bush and the “neocons”? LOL.

“Sometimes in life you have to bring out the big guns because reason doesn’t always work.” I take it you’re referring to Cheney, Rumsfield et al? =) to quote cow-tipper, “cool”

[sdnativeson]

jg; a subconcious desire to be liberal?

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