[lifeisgood]

[quote=FlyerInHi][quote=lifeisgood] However, I don’t even want one immigrant to come here and do harm to even one US citizen. I don’t know anyone who feels differently than me on that point.[/quote]

Usually just an excuse to limit immigration.
There are costs and benefits to a free society. I’m surprised free market libertarians don’t make this point very often.

To me, one or two bad apples are worth the benefits. Better than a permanent costly siege. Nothing is 100% safe.[/quote]

Great point! I just hope that we can get close to a maybe a 90% solution. Either way, I don’t get paid to make decisions.

[lifeisgood]

[quote=flu]Oh please. Stop with the refugee coming and killing people hysteria. How many refugees to date have committed mass murderer in the us?

Versus how many domestic citizens committed mass murder with their easy access to getting a gun?

Let’s see.
Movie theater massacre.
Elementary school shootings.
Workplace shootings.
Middle and high school shooting.
Murder of Christina Grimmie…

How many of these were done by Muslim refugees.

Almost all of these were committed by , for the lack of better word, gun toting american white people. But, when they do it..We call that mental illness. Because we want keep the status quo on ease access to guns.

You and your kids are probably more likely to get killed by a gun nut with mental illness or someone with bad case of road rage than a refugee. I worry more about that than the refugees.[/quote]

I completely agree with your entire statement. I said in my statement that most people coming here are hard working people that have no intent to harm anyone. You’re 100% right on having our own problematic citizens. We certainly don’t need anymore. Europe is seeing many more problems with their refugees committing crimes. I think we SHOULD ALLOW ANYONE to come to the US that has been properly vetted and wants to contribute. This isn’t a new idea. We, and the rest of the world control who comes in and out of its border. By the way, I don’t think Trump is handling any of these decisions on immigration the right way. He should utilize his experts in congress to come up with the best plan that we can. I am certainly not an immigration expert.

I really liked your opinion on the effect of limiting or doing away with working visas. It helped me a lot.

[lifeisgood]

I’m all for legal immigration and a proper vetting process for those who enter our country. You’re 100% correct. Immigration is one of the things that makes the US worth living in. I just hope that the government comes up with a new vetting system sooner rather than later. I would say most of the refugees and people on work visas are upstanding hard working people. However, I don’t even want one immigrant to come here and do harm to even one US citizen. I don’t know anyone who feels differently than me on that point.

[lifeisgood]

[quote=deadzone]On the one hand, we have all these threads about how hard it is for kids with excellent grades to even get accepted to public schools in California (in any degree let along Engineering). Then on the other hand we have these H1B proponents that claim there are not enough US citizens with STEM degrees.

It just doesn’t add up unless you are suggesting that the reason it is so hard to get accepted by UC schools is due to foreign competition. Perhaps that is true for UC schools(although I highly doubt it), this is definitely not the case nationally.

Let’s look at actual data from ASEE for the 2010/11 school year.
http://www.asee.org/papers-and-publications/publications/college-profiles/2011-profile-engineering-statistics.pdf

According to this report, 83,000 Bachelors degrees were awarded in Engineering with 93% of those to US permanent residents (i.e. not H1B material). For masters degrees, 47,000 were awarded with 57% of those to permanent residents. For PhDs, 9500 with 46% going to permanent residents.

So not surprisingly, there is more foreign influence in the graduate programs compared to undergrad. However, overall looking at these statistics, how can you see a shortage of domestic engineers?[/quote]

Thanks for the data! This really solidifies my point!! 65000 H1-B’s are granted a year. I have no idea how many of those go to engineers. But we have way more than that graduating at all levels of degree who are American citizens. We would have to believe that the Americans that are graduating are less qualified than the H1-B’s. I will never believe that.

[lifeisgood]

[quote=dumbrenter][quote=lifeisgood]

What kind of graduates are they pumping out? What are you getting at? I’m assuming that they are pumping out engineers. Am I wrong? We have many problems with immigration. I’m just bringing up one. We can site many examples of abuse and talk about this countries demise till we’re blue in the face. I was recently introduced to the H1-B process and started doing a little research. I saw it as a problem that deserved hearing other peoples opinions on. I chose to bring it up here so that I could speak to highly intelligent educated people. By no means am I saying that this is my only immigration concern. I might be one of the few that is hanging onto the hope that this country can become great again.
[/quote]

You say you are doing research, I gave you the best possible path to go observe for yourself. Why assume what they are “pumping out” when you can go see for yourself? If the student body looked ((ahem)) “american” and then they looked very different at qcom, you can make the argument that qcom is going out of their way to hire H1-Bs. If not, you will realize that the problem is not qcom… the problem is not enough american kids are going thru the engineering schools. Unfortunately, in this great country of yours, you cannot force them to go to an engineering school.
Why do that when you can get into student debt and get a liberal arts degree that is practically useless for many tech employers?
Ever seen an H1-B in liberal arts? You don’t because that “specialty” has a glut of americans…[/quote]

That’s what I thought you were getting at. I never mentioned what I thought an American looked like. I find it funny that you think that. Unless you work for the acceptance department at these schools, don’t assume that because these students aren’t white, that there not American. I just simply think that the program is corrupt(along with others) and wanted to bring it up here. I also said Qcomm and other companies. I do blame any company that goes through the motions of interviewing qualified Americans just to hire someone out of country to pay them less. By the way, so no one gets their panties in a bunch, I know and understand that H1-B’s are compensated well. I’m sure that it’s not as high as skilled workers in their positions would be making had the program not existed. If the companies didn’t benefit financially, then what’s the point. No will ever lead me to believe that we don’t have enough highly intelligient American citizens to pick from.

I tend to also think that Americans are not seeking out meaningless degrees either. I know that some do, but not the majority. I have a very good friend that is a mechanical engineer student at SDSU currently. Most of the students in that department are citizens.

[lifeisgood]

[quote=FlyerInHi][quote=spdrun]
But government organizations shouldn’t be using it. They only started using it in the 1940s as a protest against Supreme Court decisions mandating integration, so it’s a really awkward and offensive symbol for a government that’s supposed to serve all of its citizens equally to be using.[/quote]

yes.

And we should also mention all the monuments state governments and localities built to commemorate pretty reprehensible Confederate figures. Those monuments should come down.[/quote]

And we should take down all monuments in D.C. who represent a president that ever owned slaves. Or MLK statues because he slept with prostitutes and that offends people. And all places of worship for Jewish people because the Jews killed Christ. Blah Blah Blah. This is exactly what I’m talking about when I say we jump to change everything that offends someone. It’s history. Let’s not burn all the books to erase our past. Just sayin.

When does it stop?

[lifeisgood]

[quote=spdrun]

It feels like all I’ve heard about over the last few years is how if someone is offended by something, we should immediately change it. Ever heard about teamwork? A little of that and we wouldn’t need to find skilled workers from outside the country. This country is made up of to many individuals. I would love to witness a day before I die where Americans could believe again that this is the best damn country in the world. Whatever happened to leaving history as history, learning from our mistakes but not forgetting them? It took the white house one day to shine a rainbow on the building, but five days to lower a flag for military personnel killed by a crazy brain washed idiot. Rant off.

Agreed about the US flag after the military shootings.

But I have no problem with reform of policing or criminal justice. Those are things long overdue. Nor do I have a problem with marriage equality. Anything that increases civil rights in the US is a good thing in my book.

There are plenty of things in legitimate need of reform, and the individuals calling for reform are doing this country a great service.

And some of us aren’t good at teamwork. I prefer to be a lone wolf. Or a tiger, as the case may be.[/quote]

No problem with reform here either. I’m on board with everything you just said. Thanks for agreeing with me! That doesn’t mean we need to rewrite the history books because the American past offends someone.

[lifeisgood]

[quote=dumbrenter]If you really want to educate yourself and not “believe”, you could take a short drive to SDSU or UCSD, park by the engineering school and look at who is there. It will become very clear to you (in less than 15 mins) about the ‘kinds’ of graduates being pumped out of there. They do not look too dissimilar from what you will see when you park yourself by Scranton Rd. Then, hopefully, you will ask yourself the more relevant question: Why are engineering schools not “pumping out” enough americans ?
And if you think that is bad, park yourself by the business schools and watch!

These workers care as much about your country as you care about the country of origin on all parts of the car you buy or the shopping you do.

I have never met one American who refuses to buy avocados from CA because of the abuse and horrible work conditions of the avocado pickers. They are of course “patriotic” and against illegal immigration, but hey, why do you think those things go for $0.99 a piece? Magic?
H1-B is no different.

[quote=lifeisgood]http://www.latimes.com/opinion/editorials/la-ed-visas-tech-workers-h1b-20150217-story.html

Hello everyone! I haven’t posted in awhile. I need some educated opinions so that I can open my mind up about the feeling I have towards the broken H1-B visa program. I currently believe that the system is being abused. San Diego is a breeding ground for this program due to the tech jobs that are available. I live in Rancho Bernardo and so do many H1-B visa holders. I find it hard to believe that companies like Qualcomm and others can’t find qualified Americans to fill their positions of need. In SD alone there are two Engineering schools pumping out graduates every year. I also believe that these companies know they can hire immigrants, that come from countries with no worker protections such as overtime pay and scheduled break time, and overwork them and pay them less than an American worker would agree to. I think it’s a shame. Most of theses workers could care less about the United States and are here solely for personal gain. If you disagree with me, please let me know. I’m trying to get different points of view so that I can have a well rounded opinion. With the upcoming Presidential election, this will be a topic that will sway my vote. Thanks for your responses in advance.[/quote][/quote]

What kind of graduates are they pumping out? What are you getting at? I’m assuming that they are pumping out engineers. Am I wrong? We have many problems with immigration. I’m just bringing up one. We can site many examples of abuse and talk about this countries demise till we’re blue in the face. I was recently introduced to the H1-B process and started doing a little research. I saw it as a problem that deserved hearing other peoples opinions on. I chose to bring it up here so that I could speak to highly intelligent educated people. By no means am I saying that this is my only immigration concern. I might be one of the few that is hanging onto the hope that this country can become great again.

It feels like all I’ve heard about over the last few years is how if someone is offended by something, we should immediately change it. Ever heard about teamwork? A little of that and we wouldn’t need to find skilled workers from outside the country. This country is made up of to many individuals. I would love to witness a day before I die where Americans could believe again that this is the best damn country in the world. Whatever happened to leaving history as history, learning from our mistakes but not forgetting them? It took the white house one day to shine a rainbow on the building, but five days to lower a flag for military personnel killed by a crazy brain washed idiot. Rant off.

I really do appreciate everyone’s opinions! I’m sure that if we pieced everything on this post together, we could come up with one hell of an argument. thanks again!

[lifeisgood]

Recalled ddddddddddddddddddddddddd

[lifeisgood]

[quote=flu][quote=lifeisgood]
Again I never said that H1-B’s didn’t want to stay here and keep an American job. Where are you reading this? I’m starting to get confused with where you’re coming from. I know companies leave the states to hire lower waged workers, but that is a separate issue. I’m speaking about companies who are here now and abusing the system. Please don’t bend my words. Thanks. I think you make a lot of good points. I don’t disagree with anything that you’ve said. I’m really just stating the obvious when I say that they’re coming here for personal success. You don’t see H1-B’s picking up an American flag and waiving it around when they get off the plane.[/quote]

I’m not trying to bend your words. And honestly, I’m not following what you are trying to say. If you are saying that some companies are abusing the H1-B system, yes I agree with that.

If you are saying that it happens most of the time, I would disagree with you on that.

And if you think that somehow H1-B immigrants need to be more patriotic that most people that were born here with U.S. citizenship, that’s where I have we have a disagreement, because I’m interpretting this to mean that you think H1-B’s care less about America than people that were born here care about America. I would argue that many americans don’t really care any more about America than H1-B’s care about America, and the only reason why they really care about being American now is because their job security is under attack (which is an understandable feeling)[/quote]

Thanks! That’s really all I’m saying is I hope it’s not effecting job security. And yes I do believe that the vast majority of this country that grew up here care a lot about the U.S.! I’m very patriotic and most Americans are. Remember what happened on 9/11? You saw a great country come together. I really just want American born citizens to truly have first dibs on the jobs that are here. Not brought in on an interview just so a company can say that they gave everyone a fair chance before hiring outside the country. I also believe that there is no way that a company can’t find enough qualified citizens to feel it’s needs. It benefits the company to hire these immigrants otherwise they wouldn’t do it. It’s always about the money.

Lastly, If I had to choose between a company saving a buck to hire outside or leaving the country all together, I would choose that the company stay here.

[lifeisgood]

Bottom line, if what you’re saying is true, then the qualified U.S. workers have nothing to worry about. They don’t have to worry about taking less pay or losing out on a job or being let go from a job because they’ve been replaced. You know people are generally self sustaining. I know that laws and rules exist to be broken. People are interviewed for positions just so companies can meet the law requirements with no intention of hiring these people. I just hope this is the exception and not the rule. Thanks for your insight. I really mean that. You all have brought up good points and have really made me think.

[lifeisgood]

[quote=flu][quote=lifeisgood]

Please read the first two sentences again and again until you understand it. I don’t disagree with you. I don’t feel entitled just because my ancestors have been here for hundreds of years. We were all immigrants at one point.

I said they could care less about America other than the U.S. being a conduit to a better life. If they had the same opportunities in their own country, they wouldn’t move here.

[/quote]

I hate to break the news to you, but I think H1-B workers here facing getting laidoff seem to care more about america and american jobs than U.S. citizen CEOs, managers, management, hedge funds, that seem more interested in turning a buck at the cost of screwing over everyone else.

Also, if what you say is true about H1-B immigrants carrying more about the job than about staying in America, then how come we haven’t seen a mass exodus of H1-B’s back to their home countries, considering how the opportunities in China and India, in many cases, are better than here in the U.S.? Their pay/salary might be lower, but not *that* much lower (for good people, it’s definitely not 1:8 as people say it is), and their cost of living is definitely significantly lower than it is here. And yet, you don’t see a mass exodus, do you? If you did, this probably would have already been self correcting because you wouldn’t have an H1-B glut problem as you claim we have.

And I didn’t say there is no abuse at bigger companies. But again, it’s not the primary way big companies use to save on labor costs. The H1-B “threat”, is nothing compared to moving the entire team abroad and hiring locally there…

People are focusing on the wrong “problem”…H1-B or non H1-B, isn’t the issue. It’s the issue that that entire group is being moved abroad because it’s reached a point of “maturity” (run the business) so it no longer needs the “best” talent to maintain it. (at least that’s why the the management team think).

If this is really of concern, then work at companies where it’s much harder to offshore the work…IE the defense industry, and things related to national security that requires a security clearance. I would if I wasn’t so concerned about being a scapegoat in the future if chinese/american political relations going sour in the future, despite not being from mainland china.[/quote]

Again I never said that H1-B’s didn’t want to stay here and keep an American job. Where are you reading this? I’m starting to get confused with where you’re coming from. I know companies leave the states to hire lower waged workers, but that is a separate issue. I’m speaking about companies who are here now and abusing the system. Please don’t bend my words. Thanks. I think you make a lot of good points. I don’t disagree with anything that you’ve said. I’m really just stating the obvious when I say that they’re coming here for personal success. You don’t see H1-B’s picking up an American flag and waiving it around when they get off the plane.

[lifeisgood]

By the way, I didn’t intend to start a debate about if legal workers pay their taxes. I’m not an idiot. Of course I know that legal workers pay taxes.

[lifeisgood]

[quote=flu][quote=lifeisgood]I never said that H1-B’s didn’t want to come here. I said they could care less about America other than the U.S. being a conduit to a better life. If they had the same opportunities in their own country, they wouldn’t move here. I just read an article that Disney hired 200 H1-B’s and had their employees that are being replaced, train them. To say that big companies aren’t abusing the system is naïve. “Google” H1-B abuse and you will find MANY articles of BIG companies abusing the system. My ONLY problem with the H1-B system is that I truly believe that immigrants are being hired over Americans who have the same level of skill but won’t take less pay for the position. It’s common sense to hire immigrants who in the long run will deliver the same product at less long term cost to the company. I do believe that a lot of companies out there don’t abuse it, but there are a crap ton that do.
I’m also willing to admit that people who come from sub par countries most likely work harder than our entitled society. So some of this problem is on the U.S.[/quote]

Again, this is where you are wrong. H1-B’s come here because they want to stay here in as much your parents came here and wanted to stay here and immigrant here. (unless your parents are american indian or your parents were african american slaves that were forced to come here)….

Just like your parents, H1-Bs pay their federal, state taxes, and they also pay social security taxes, despite not being able to collect on them in case they get sent back. They pay SDI to CA and they pay for just about every other tax, just like everyone else. I hardly see how a $100k+ H1-B paying their W2 taxes (which is the most tax inefficient way to earn money in the U.S.) isn’t contributing their fair share of taxes when I’m sure you have plenty of small businesses in the mall that shut off their cashier registers mid-day to not pay their fair share of taxes….

If you are going to “blame” someone, blame the company, blame american consumers that no longer can afford to buy more smartphones and tablets….Because Qualcomm derives more than 51% of it’s business in China where it has to compete with other chinese players, more so on cost. True, Qualcomm could just leave the chinese market. But then what? Instead of laying off 15% of QCT, shut down QCT completely and lay everyone off except for those that work for QTL (royalty/licensing aka: lawyer group)?[/quote]

Please read the first two sentences again and again until you understand it. I don’t disagree with you. I don’t feel entitled just because my ancestors have been here for hundreds of years. We were all immigrants at one point.

[lifeisgood]

[quote=FlyerInHi]The abusers did get caught. So the process worked.

H1-B is hardly slave labor, not by a long shot.

You’re right, flu. Most H1-Bs are highly qualified and we should be lucky to have them here, improving our technological advantages.

One of the advantages that America has is that we attract the best and the brightest (Germany reformed since the 1990s and is doing the same thing, even providing free university education for foreign students).

This topic reminds of the reverse White-flight in Cupertino where White parents are moving out because the schools are too competitive for their kids. flu, did you read that article from years ago?

Hey, the world is a competitive place and the bar is always being raised.

BTW, H1-B tech workers are not all from Asia/India, but also from Europe/Eastern Europe where people value education. I have a neighbor from Slovakia.[/quote]

I agree with you on many points. I believe that we can always use skilled workers to advance our technology. I also believe that the world is a competitive place. I also agree that H1-B’s get compensated well.

However, we would be naïve to believe that companies that go through the trouble of paying to have these workers come in, do not gain some advantage for doing so. So I ask, what is the advantage? I do not believe that the U.S. can not produce or does not have the best and brightest people in the world. We live in a state that breeds competition. You can’t even get into a 4 year university here unless you have a flawless academic record and then even that doesn’t work. The problem is not competition. The problem for me is that we don’t need anymore competition. California is already bursting at the seems to keep up with it’s current population. Our American citizens have some of the best academic records in the world. These companies should invest in the citizens we have now. Trust me, it is more cost effective to hire outside the country or just simply would not be a good investment. Maybe I’m the stupid one to believe that this program needs reform.

By the way, thanks for the responses. I love learning and hearing different perspective.

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