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CoronitaParticipantDan Price is spot on
[img_assist|nid=27451|title=|desc=|link=node|align=left|width=800|height=646]…
CoronitaParticipantThe other thing that is interesting is that it seems like people fed up with working are a traditional butt-in-your-office-seat are quiting and doing freelancing…
Up to 10 Million Americans Turn to Freelancing Amid The Great Resignation, Upwork Report Finds
SAN FRANCISCO,–(BUSINESS WIRE)–Upwork Inc. (Nasdaq: UPWK), the world’s work marketplace, today released a new research report, “The Great Resignation: From Full-time to Freelance,” which explores why American professionals are leaving their current full-time roles. Utilizing survey data from 4,000 Americans, the report finds that 20%, or 10 million Americans, are considering freelancing to work remotely and gain more flexibility.
As some businesses return to the office, the report finds that many professionals are not willing to sacrifice the ability to work remotely. 17% of professionals — or approximately 9 million workers — working remotely during the pandemic would consider looking for another job if they have to go back to the office. With this rising interest in a more flexible work arrangement outside the office, professionals are not only considering other full-time jobs to stay remote, but freelancing as well. Among those who are definitely planning on quitting, 52% are considering freelancing.
“Many professionals are not happy about the prospects of returning to the office after the pandemic, and are looking for more remote and flexible options,” says Upwork Chief Economist, Adam Ozimek. “Freelancing has always been a career path that provides these benefits more than traditional full-time jobs. Our report indicates that this heightened interest in freelancing is likely to expand the size of the freelance workforce.”
August 5, 2021 at 12:18 PM in reply to: June inflation way below expections, MSM clickbait hypers and inflata-doomers lose interest in topic #822881CoronitaParticipant[quote=scaredyclassic]2022 Nissan leaf 4k cheaper than 2021[/quote]
This item however is like computer and tech that will depreciate due to lower cost as things mature…
CoronitaParticipantnot necessarily schewed. I think it’s pretty much across the board…
CoronitaParticipant[quote=Andrew32]The company I work for now is 5 former QC engineers. Different markets, different projects than what they did at QC. But they did it as a side-hustle for 1-2 years before taking the leap.
Been a long haul but I bet they have enough equity remaining among them each to 5-10x a 40 year QC career when they exit. And they’ll do it in 25% of that timeframe. Not for the faint of heart and high probability of failure, but when it works, it’s impressive. And in most cases, that job is still there if it fails.[/quote]
I have old colleagues that are still managers and directors in corporate R&D at qualcomm. unlike other parts of the company, this is known as the “countryclub group” because I think only in this group are you paid (and RSU vesting) to build shit that never has to see real production use. It’s all prototype and in some cases they are technology demos looking for a business problem to solve…. If that sounds backwards, it’s because it is. anyway, the countryclub mentality is to do enough to rest and vest and since things are only for a demo and not needed for production, you never need to worry about support past a demo or 2…Not my cup of tea, but the resting and vesting is a compelling reason.
I’m pretty confident there are plenty of people moonlighting in that group.
Heck they have time to debate whether people should show up in person for work or continue working remotely. And there’s people who refuse to get a vaccine and refuse to wear a mask because they don’t want to feel discriminated against if they show up in the office and get seen wearing a mask, and people will avoid contact with them. And yet they don’t want to get vaccinated or feel they need to get vaccinated since a lot think this virus is still a hoax.. And then you have the vaccinated people who want other people to get vaccinated and/or wear a mask, who don’t feel comfortable showing up for work unless there is a vaccine/mask requirement. And they’ve been debating this back and forth for some time now.. And then there was a suggestion that company could create a non-vaccinated area and a vaccinated area… And of course you can’t seggregate the vaccinated from the non-vaccinated into two parts of the office, because of course the non-vaccinated people are complaining they would be discriminated against since requiring non-vaccinated to wear a mask, you can easily tell who is vaccinated and who isn’t and those that aren’t they don’t want to be isolated from their peers…..the company of course has to balance this, because if someone does spread covid in the office because people were asked to go back to the office and work, it could be a liability issue since it’s unlikely a company will be perfect in safe handling of people in the office, and if anyone wants to look for a negligence or unsafe work condition, they probably could find it if they really wanted to. I don’t envy being an employer right now.
Ah yes. Everything there is to know about pain in the ass american workers….Kinda funny, only at a big company. If it was me and my company. I’d require a vaccination and mask, and if anyone has a problem with it, they can work from home and if they still have a problem with that, they can quit.
CoronitaParticipant[quote=an][quote=Coronita]Those that had a problem with the take home assignment usually didnt want to do it because they werent qualified, becauses alternatively we offered an in person interview that just asked tech questions, and they didnt do very well there too.[/quote]
I hate take home. If you give me in person tech questions, I’d take that any day. If you don’t give me that option, then I would have turn down that opportunity. I’ve been fortunate to never have to do a take home. Luckily, a huge chunk of my career has been people who have worked with me in the past pulling me in, so I don’t have to interview. I hate interview, just like I hate taking tests at school.[/quote]I had to do take home a few times. I prefer that than the in person whiteboarding interviews. But we do offer both, and let the candidate pick 9/10 of the candidate takes the take home. The take home takes about 2 hours, that’s about it.
We don’t grill our candidates. Part of the team panel is also to see how they get along with the other engineers in a work setting. So even if someone doesn’t know how to do something, my engineers help guide the candidate through the question, they kinda brainstorm together in the project on different things. Some engineers jump in and write some of the code to show how to do something.
But yeah, I got a lot of flak from senior management about potential good candidates turning down the takehome interview and not being interested.
I think with most of the younger engineers, they seem to prefer the take home and working with my engineers through the interview. The feedback I got was, it was a lot less stressful and didn’t feel like it was an interview. They also like seeing some diversity on the team. My lead IOS engineer is 26-7, has been writing code since he was in high school from Cal Poly San Luis Obispo. Really smart kid. He’s working on his part time MBA from UCSD also. He complains that the younger “kids” these days code way too fast and he’s having a hard time keeping up with them, lol. I agree. One of my new hires is a fresh college grad and a really quick learner. She started out in a JC and then transferred to 4 year school with a top rank CS dept. She did an internship in Vietnam with a company doing IOS apps, and her take home assignment was way better than a lot of seasoned engineers.
I think the main thing is regardless of which style is your interview, just dont be an asshole interviewer. we’ve all experienced them at some point.
CoronitaParticipant[quote=deadzone][quote=sdrealtor][quote=deadzone][quote=Coronita][quote=an][quote=deadzone]I appreciate your unique journey/story. But was mainly curious what background you expect when you hire for those “mobile” positions. But relating to your story, yes not only is Ivy league obviously way overkill for a job in technology, I would argue UCSD degree is overkill too. Or an Engineering degree at all. I mean Engineering degree is a good filter to ensure a candidate has a proven analytical and problem solving skills. But certainly little you learn in College is directly related to developing mobile apps.[/quote]
Of course. When I went to college, there’s no such thing as Android, iOS, Kotlin, Swift, etc. But I did learn object oriented design, how to think and solve problems, how to make things work and how to prioritize implementations in order to have a fully working feature at the other end.[/quote]1. Take one object oriented programming class. See if you like it or hate it.
2. If you hate it, the another object oriented programming class and see if you like it or hate it.
If you still like it and it’s easy to understand, then you have everything you need to get into this field.
3. Specifically for mobile. Good mobile engineers know how to detail with async programming and the rest is just practice after practice.[/quote]
I am more interested in what formal education/certs etc. are expected or mandatory for these positions. It sounds like the answer is no formal college degree is necessarily a requirement. If anything a CS degree would be a logical starting point. Any type of Engineering degree would be overkill or out of place. Which makes me wonder why do they call themselves “Engineers”? An overused term in technology in my opinion. Software Developer or Mobile developer would be more appropriate.[/quote]
No middle age guy becomes a mobile engineer after a career in legacy systems for fun. They only do it because they need money[/quote]
I have zero interest in mobile app work for myself. But regardless, comparing software development to driving an Uber as a career upgrade is pretty comical. I am pretty sure you are the only one on here that really wants to drive Uber for fun. That is a strange fetish indeed.
Anyway, I keep getting long-winded, meandering responses to the question on hiring. To be more specific to FLU and AN who are doing hiring. Do you hire, or consider for hiring, software engineers, mobile engineers or whatever you like to call them, without a College Degree? This is a yes or no answer.[/quote]
I already answered it. Yes, if..
1. their linkedin profile is impressive enough with a lot of recommendations from former peers. i check their college degree last just out of curiousity.
2. (as an added bonus) they have a personal github account containing an app they wrote demonstrating some of their personal projects beyond the level of a whoopie cushion fart can app.
2. they complete take home “write an app from scratch” assignment we use to prescreen candidates
3. in the panel interview reviewing their app with them and ask a subset of questions to see if they really did their own work and know what they are doing….
Examples:
a. they demonstrate they understand MVVM design pattern instead of just talking about it with their sample app they wroteb. they demonstrate technics of good async programming. On android that would be good usage of coroutines, 1/2 credit for using AsyncTasks, and 1/4 credit for using HandlerThreads (are you an Android Dinosaur developer that never learned Kotlin? whats wrong with you)
On IOS, that would be closures and callbacks). And i mean, really understand it, as shown in your app.c. demonstrate they understand an app’s lifecycle. IE. what happens to your app when i install it on my phone right now and rotate my phone with your app and it moves into landscape mode…Did your app handle it, or was it oops?
d. Ok so, your app seems to not crash when I rotate it, but what happens to the data you had in the app before you rotated the phone? Did you persist it and where?
e. How did you connect to that webservice and parse that JSON object into a swift or kotlin object?
f. In this GET request to fetch images, what are some things about this webservice you felt was an issue to implement with?
g. In this POST request,did you have any feedback about the ease of use of this endpoint when sending a large document?
h. Can you show me an example in your app that demonstrates how you used LiveData?
i. Have you used something like Charles? If so, show me how you would debug this app in a production build.
j. Ok, lets suppose you are to connect to this service from the platform team, but they are behind and dont have anything done, but you need to complete this part of the app. Show me how you would mock out this service endpoint out so you can complete the rest of your app. You can use mockito, use postman, or charles, or anything else you seem fit to do this. Walk me through what you would do.
h. (If you are interviewing for the principal bluetooth mobile position)
Show me code you would use to parse and advertisement.
Show me code you would use to parse a beacon.
Show me how you would read and write characteristics.
Tell me what you did to deal wth interop differences between Android phones . What were some of the phones from specific manufacturers that were really problematic….This is just a subset of things we ask candidates, based on ehat they declared as their background and experience in their linkedin profile.
I dont require someone wth a college degree if they can demonstrate they are qualified to do the work, and how they wrote their take home assignment and answer questions on their take home assignment during the panel interview does a pretty good job telling us of they know what they are doing..
(No stupid brainteaser “IQ” questions that Google love to ask their candidates…I met plenty of really smart Google engineers that code like shit. in fact, we fixed a lot of race conditions in their Bluetooth framework AOSP code for them…)
That said, we havent run into many candidates that dont have college degrees that can get through our interview process. Is there any correlation netween college degree and demonstrating competency, i dont know ..
But I’ll say this….Some of the people that try to pass themselves off as mobile engineers who’s only education in tech was short courses they took at places like “Devry” or “FullSailUniversity” generally seemed to have a gap in their general education and also didnt seem to have a good understanding of the skills we needed…
On the other hand, one of the best software engineers I worked with at a previous company was a guy with an English major from Stanford, who just didnt want to become a lawyer and go to law school..So he picked up a few books and picked up Android pretty quickly himself…Smart guy, could probably do anything he put his mind to, and decided he wanted to do software. We lost him to Google, who poached him away from us for a software lead role. So yes he was that good despite not having an engineering degree. But again, if he was good enough to get in Stanford, he was probably smart enough to pick up anything he wanted to do…. And again, while it does happen, its rare.
last note. there was some debate before sending a take home assignment would work in this tight job market. Yes it does, if you are patient.
Those peoole who are well qualified had no problem doing take home assignment and doong the panel “discussion” (as we call it) that allows the candidate to walk us through this assignment. Because its 2 hour opportunity for them to see how my engineers work and whether or not they are going to be asshole coworkers. That seems to matter a lot to people looking for the next job… So the panel “interview” is really both ways.
Those that had a problem with the take home assignment usually didnt want to do it because they werent qualified, becauses alternatively we offered an in person interview that just asked tech questions, and they didnt do very well there too.
CoronitaParticipant[quote=deadzone][quote=an][quote=deadzone]I am more interested in what formal education/certs etc. are expected or mandatory for these positions. It sounds like the answer is no formal college degree is necessarily a requirement. If anything a CS degree would be a logical starting point. Any type of Engineering degree would be overkill or out of place. Which makes me wonder why do they call themselves “Engineers”? An overused term in technology in my opinion. Software Developer or Mobile developer would be more appropriate.[/quote]
Wow, the snobbery here is nauseating.[/quote]Hey I’m anti formal education and particularly a critic of snob schools like Ivy or UC system as being overrated so I’m not the snob here. I’m merely pointing out a pet peeve that everyone in technology likes to call themselves Engineers even if the don’t have a degree in Engineering. I think that is inappropriate and unnecessary. Bottom line you don’t have to be an “Engineer” to code smart phone apps.
But I do realize the reality of the situation is there is virtually no chance to get your foot in the door as an entry level developer at any serious technology company without a CS degree or similar. And without that foot in the door you can’t gain the industry experience needed for any higher paying job.[/quote]
Let’s put it this way… Everything you do is about the chance of opening extra opportunity doors. The more you have, the more chances.
The “degree” from a particular college is really only needed maybe when you have no experience. But honestly, at least in the mobile space, if you have no experience, a degree from a fancy college is not going to make you a better candidate then some kid from a not so fancy school that’s been writing apps (as simple as they might be) while they were in high school or for fun while in college. That speaks a lot more than getting a 4.0 in some degree option.
Some companies (not all) require a B.S. or M.S. for senior management positions because it’s mainly to preserve face in the view of the public and there are some companies that pride itself of bragging it’s senior management staff are from pedigree institutions but not all and I would say not most.
I think what really boils done to when I hire someone is I can pretty quickly tell who is doing this because they really like to do this…versus who is doing mobile but could care less about mobile…
It’s the sort of answers to things when you ask that a normal, run of the mill person who took a few courses a “DeVry” or “FullSailUniversity” who are unqualified trying to con their way into getting hired versus people who have been doing this and spending a lot of their free time doing stuff that normally wouldn’t come up with the jobs that they are working in. Most really good mobile engineers know so much more than would would have been possible for them to learn at their current job, and those are the folks you want to hire, not the ones just sitting at the desk doing what they are told to do and haven’t demonstrated any self-drive to learn anything beyond what their job requires of them.
There might be some correlation between being degreed at a good college and work ethics and passion to self learn… I mean, usually the people who aren’t terribly gifted who got into a good school probably put a lot of effort into do that. So, maybe there is a propensity for those people to also put in the time and effort into learning above and beyond what they are told…But there are exceptions of people who didn’t go to college that make great software engineers too because theu were self driven. There aren’t as many but there are some.
Some people like to quickly say that Bill Gates and Mark Z didn’t go to college, and look how successful they are, therefore college isnt required…Yeah, well, Bill Gates and Mark Z are probably the exceptionally smart people that didn’t need college who are motivated themselves and can learn themselves…People who say this are most likely nowhere near the same capability as Bill Gates or Mark Z, and seem to be talking themselves out of college or things, erroneously thinking they are as exceptionally gifted as Bill G and Mark Z. Well if they were, they won’t be talking about how much they don’t need college. They would already be executing and demonstrating how successful they are…
Stop kidding yourself “you don’t need something to do well, you don’t need to do X to have opportunity”…Those things are additional chances of opportunity. They might not be successful chances, but they are extra chances…like extra scratchers on a lottery ticket…Every single time someone dismisses something as “I don’t need this, I don’t need to do Y”, all that person is doing is working towards a path of guaranteed being unsuccessful. It’s not one specific thing that is going to hold the person back…It’s the persistent negativity the person has on dismissing every new thing that comes along the way…to the point that the person doesn’t bother to try most things, thereby severely limiting chances of opportunity well before he/she has even tried…
Like my kid who refuses to try any sport because my kid thinks they suck at all sports. Well that might be true, but by not trying, that’s a 100% guarantee…congrats on talking oneself into 100% failure without lifting a finger. People are too fvcking negative for their own good. And I think the real thing is they are afraid when people do what they don’t want do, those people might actually be successful.
CoronitaParticipant[quote=svelte][quote=Coronita]
Also John Hine Mazda is closing down for good in September 6. (owner sold to Carvana and carvana doesnt want to keep the mazda franchise).[/quote]I just read that Carvana is building a Carvana car vending machine at the corner of I-15 and 78 in Escondido. We had been seeing the structure going up and couldn’t figure out what it was.
So I read up on the car vending machine thing. What a gimmick! But I guess if it makes car buying fun, who am I to judge? I just hope they don’t regret building that thing next to RR tracks, with brake dust and all.[/quote]
Carvana is going to be failed business model. Lots of people i know sold their cars to carvana for more then they paid a few years earlier.
Oh, and one of the largest owners of Carvana??? Remember Charles Keating and the S&L scandals?? Yup…
In america, crime does pay.
CoronitaParticipant[quote=svelte]We’re not much of a price shopper for insurance, if we find a good company we stay with them. Which is why we were with AAA for auto insurance forever.
That is, until our car purchase last year. It was an expensive car, granted, but they insured us immediately then put the car on a “pending” list. I called and asked what that was and they said it hadn’t received final approval but I was covered in the interim. It was like that for a month before I lost my patience and started calling around.
Turns out that, by transferring auto insurance over to who held our home insurance (Liberty Mutual), I could get the house, cars, earthquake, AND umbrella insurance and still pocket $800/year over what I was paying before. AAA was putting the screws to us! Or maybe I’m talking too soon and LM will jack up the rates when we renew in a couple of months. We’ll see. I will say this: the LM agent was a pleasure to work with. We’ll see if that is true if we ever have to file a claim. :-)[/quote]
Insurance is something that you don’t really want to cheapen out on. But when the price difference is so out of wack for the same coverage, it begs a revisit. I know I was getting stiffed by Allstate because while companies like AAA have been lowering rates for their clients, Allstate has been raising mine for the past few years. They started out lower than everyone else….
CoronitaParticipant[quote=an][quote=deadzone]I am more interested in what formal education/certs etc. are expected or mandatory for these positions. It sounds like the answer is no formal college degree is necessarily a requirement. If anything a CS degree would be a logical starting point. Any type of Engineering degree would be overkill or out of place. Which makes me wonder why do they call themselves “Engineers”? An overused term in technology in my opinion. Software Developer or Mobile developer would be more appropriate.[/quote]
Wow, the snobbery here is nauseating.[/quote]Honestly, there’s no formal education. The way I look at it is….It’s like hiring a graphic artist…You don’t care what school they went to, what sort of classes or certification certificates they have…. You just want them to show you their art portfolio and their art portfolio speaks for itself.
Same thing. Good mobile engineers (or any software engineer) is a lot like porn. It’s hard to describe, but you know it when you see it.
On a serious note. A sample of their work usually is a pretty good indicator of how good they are or are not.
CoronitaParticipant[quote=an][quote=deadzone]I appreciate your unique journey/story. But was mainly curious what background you expect when you hire for those “mobile” positions. But relating to your story, yes not only is Ivy league obviously way overkill for a job in technology, I would argue UCSD degree is overkill too. Or an Engineering degree at all. I mean Engineering degree is a good filter to ensure a candidate has a proven analytical and problem solving skills. But certainly little you learn in College is directly related to developing mobile apps.[/quote]
Of course. When I went to college, there’s no such thing as Android, iOS, Kotlin, Swift, etc. But I did learn object oriented design, how to think and solve problems, how to make things work and how to prioritize implementations in order to have a fully working feature at the other end.[/quote]1. Take one object oriented programming class. See if you like it or hate it.
2. If you hate it, the another object oriented programming class and see if you like it or hate it.
If you still like it and it’s easy to understand, then you have everything you need to get into this field.
3. Specifically for mobile. Good mobile engineers know how to detail with async programming and the rest is just practice after practice.
CoronitaParticipant[quote=deadzone]I’m curious what specific background and training is required to be a “mobile engineer”? I suspect big part of the challenge of recruiting is that truly qualified folks have to have significant industry experience and there is a limited pool of those folks forcing you to poach.
Is an Engineering degree really needed for most of this work? Engineering school is very math intensive, I highly doubt that solving differential equations has any relevance on the development of mobile apps for an iphone. Do you only look at folks with certain college degrees or is that not even a pre-requisite?[/quote]
sorry, trade secret. Well theres people who take classes ar those DeVry or FullSailUniversity that pretend to be able to mobile engineer, and then theres people who know javascript and angular or react native that might pass as a mobile engineer at some companies that arent trying to do native apps, and then theres the rest of us that went to a prestigious ivy league school, got a 4.2gpa in a very difficult engineering major like electrical engineering, and majored in a very difficult specialization like DSP and communication systems, information theory….and then was hired by qualcomm after a days worth of grueling technical interviews….and started a job…by pulling cables out of telco equipment to test fault tolerance…and told to get a masters and wait 2 more years before writing software…
…but then, basically gave the middle finger to the employer that was standing in your way of what you wanted to really do, took 2 software engineering classes at UCSD extension, motivated yourself to self teach yourself through countless reading, coding, hands on examples of prototypes, and often free work for your friends who needed help, or volunteer to do hackathon projects at work beyond your regular assigned work…and then through a little motivation, easily found someone to hire you because you demonstrated a lot more motivation than the average US worker that sits in their ass and lets their skills waste away. Had i known that, i would have skipped the fancy ivy league school, kept the $100k money my parents spent, go to a great school like UCSD or CalPoly San Luis Obpisbo , got the same if not better education for 1/4 the cost with a merit based scholarship, and come out with the same outcome …of making more money from stock market and real estate….so that it allows me to do what i enjoy doing…software and fixing cars…..
.. in other words, i have no career advice for you…because im pretty fucked up…
CoronitaParticipant[quote=utcsox]https://www.latimes.com/business/story/2021-07-31/employers-bow-down-to-tech-workers-in-hottest-job-market
Sounds like flu is right on the tele-work and hiring challenge face by the local tech companies.
“To win a bid on a quality engineer, companies are offering things such as flexible hours, sign-on bonuses and permanent remote work, the last of which has become a requirement for much of the workforce. Dice, a website and staffing firm that focuses on tech talent, published a report in June that found only 17% of technologists wanted to work in an office full time, while 59% wanted remote and hybrid approaches.”
“If it was hard to hire talent 18 months ago — and now you cut the group you’re going for in half — it’s going to be really tough for you,” Wayne said.”[/quote]
well, im just explaining what I went though to get all my mobile engineering open reqs filled. It was really hard but nowhere near how hard it probably is now. Its a tradeoff. Pay a lot of money or offer flexibility or a combination of both. and make sure you figure out a way to retain people. My attrition rate is 0.0% , unlike any other department. Im sure though that will be closer to 50% once I leave.
Honestly, its better to be a good mobile engineer than in management right now. You can easily find more jobs that pay as well as a director from some remote opportunities..and you have a lot more to pick from with a lot less stress. If all i cared about with was money, id probably cross back over to just being pure technical and take advantage of the job market…the thought did cross my mind…
I got into so many pissing matches my with senior management and even the CFO. There’s this one engineer that at the beginning of covid, I was asked to layoff, because he was an engineer in Mexico City that we hired awhile ago and paid him $100k to work out of mexico city which is 4x what a local employee makes. He was originally only suppose to be hired as a contractor but they made a mistake and made him an FTE. His english is good and his skills excellent. Well, when we were acquired, the new management didn’t like how he was 4x above the rest of the workers in mexico and they wanted him to either take a local mexican wage or move to the US… Well having him move to the US, we would have to bring him to $130-40k/year and it was a lose lose situation for him and us, and after arguing about leaving the situation alone and just let him work remotely, they finally wanted to try to lay him off last year because they didn’t want to deal with this…Well the funny part was they couldn’t figure out how to do this because their are specific employment laws in Mexico that doesn’t allow employees to easily just get laidoff, like here in the US, so it took them 30 days to figure it out and by the time they were ready to lay him off, I had already stuck him on a customer project and in front of customers, that they couldn’t exactly terminate him, lol… So here I was getting yelled at for doing this… And fast forward today…He’s the most affordable engineer, all the VP’s like his performance, and now they are mum silent on what I did… Because while $100k in Mexico City allows him to live like a king with a live in driver, housekeeper, nanny, in a $200/month rent for a large house….You aren’t going to find a comparable senior engineer anywhere close to $100k/year in the US….So of course, now that we went through the hiring process, all the exec are silent on what happened…Go figure….lol….
It’s actually kind of funny. When I make a decision, I get a lot of flack and scorn for doing what I do. But if I wait a few weeks or month, no one complains about the outcome….story of my life…
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